Goblin Squad Member
|
Nodes do not deplete based on what tier resources have been depleted.
Might be interesting if this were changed or mitigated in some way. T1 harvesting, once "complete", still allows some T2, if not all that could be gotten originally, perhaps? Interesting to think of alternatives, at least.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was pretty vocal about it Bluddwolf, unless you are counting me in that two, lol.
As someone whose job is protecting Brighthaven, having the ability to preempt against forces in our territory, to remove trouble makers, remove those strip mining, and in general enforce our laws it troubles me that I am going to have my hands severally tied, were already Good Aligned....
All I can think about is how to break the system, how to exploit it, and what I would need. These things will have to be thought out, before hand, so that they can be dealt with.
I just hope I will have the tools to do what needs to be done, if not my job will be pretty worthless.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, they will say they want PvP (because they know the label they will get if they don't), but they never push back on any idea that severely limits PvP. Only two of us wre actually vocal about the problems involved with unintentional rep loss during the Adventures with Bonny debacle. That tells me they are mostly ok with the collateral damage if done innocents losing the ability to train for weeks, if it also means that the intentional low rep will suffer unplayable characters
In your vast and generic category of the ominious "They", are you leaving any room for those of us that are very excited about using all the tools GW is providing for meaningful PVP, such as faction allegiance, settlement warfare and company feuds, but have no interest in random brawls in the woods?
You seem to be defining PVP very narrowly as "this specific type of PVP that happens to be Bluddwolf's favorite", while excluding all the other forms of PVP that are more essential to a territory control wargame.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That tells me they are mostly ok with the collateral damage if done innocents losing the ability to train for weeks, if it also means that the intentional low rep will suffer unplayable characters
Who are you describing as "innocents" here?
The only people I saw losing rep during the ATwB livestream were people deliberately attempting to kill other unaffiliated players in an unclaimed hex. It seems odd to categorize those people as innocents.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Cheatle.
Yes you were the other.
@ Gaskon
I use "they" or "some" because it is inaccurate to say "all" or "no one". Only you can say what category you feel you fall into.
As for the kind of PvP I want to see, I want to see it all in game as early as possible.
WoT, Faction, Feud, SADs, Wars, Bounties, Assassinations, etc.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As for the kind of PvP I want to see, I want to see it all in game as early as possible.
WoT, Faction, Feud, SADs, Wars, Bounties, Assassinations, etc.
I haven't seen anyone say they don't want those things in the game.
Why did you leave "make surprise attacks on characters that aren't hostile status to me" off of your list?
That's the only type of PVP I've seen anyone actively trying to discourage.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think that in the case outlined by Cheatle the value of the resources in the hex being strip mined would either skyrocket, drawing attention from all over the server, or the economic impact would be inconsequential and be more of a nuisance than a significant problem.
Roving bands of resource locusts sound scary in theory but the kinds of people who want to inflict pointless grief on others just won't have the ability to keep doing it long enough to be meaningful. Being a resource locust in the context of Settlemtent v Settlemtment conflict is more likely but also has many more mitigating vectors.
If some group does it in ways that are abuseive and harmful to the game we will tell them to stop and if they don't stop, we'll boot them. It's not like they can do it stealthily.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think that in the case outlined by Cheatle the value of the resources in the hex being strip mined would either skyrocket, drawing attention from all over the server, or the economic impact would be inconsequential and be more of a nuisance than a significant problem.
Roving bands of resource locusts sound scary in theory but the kinds of people who want to inflict pointless grief on others just won't have the ability to keep doing it long enough to be meaningful. Being a resource locust in the context of Settlemtent v Settlemtment conflict is more likely but also has many more mitigating vectors.
If some group does it in ways that are abuseive and harmful to the game we will tell them to stop and if they don't stop, we'll boot them. It's not like they can do it stealthily.
That's probably the best response we could hope for. My primary concern was if the tactic in SvS scenarios would be considered inventive or exploitative.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Roving bands of resource locusts sound scary in theory but the kinds of people who want to inflict pointless grief on others just won't have the ability to keep doing it long enough to be meaningful.
My interpretation: Griefing by harvesting will be boring compared to griefing by whacking people in the head with something blunt, sharp or pointy.
"Ooh, they're going to be so mad tomorrow," kinda pales in comparison to "Ooh, I bet he's crying at his respawn point right now."
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Roving bands of resource locusts sound scary in theory but the kinds of people who want to inflict pointless grief on others just won't have the ability to keep doing it long enough to be meaningful.My interpretation: Griefing by harvesting will be boring compared to griefing by whacking people in the head with something blunt, sharp or pointy.
"Ooh, they're going to be so mad tomorrow," kinda pales in comparison to "Ooh, I bet he's crying at his respawn point right now."
I read it slightly differently: I think he imagines that people who tend towards griefer behavior are going to be weeded out of the game via the suck funnel before they have much of an economic impact. I'm not sure I would share his optimism if that were based purely on mechanical systems; griefers can be ingenious at finding ways to accomplish their goals within the technical boundaries of the systems opposing them. But with GW's commitment to human judgement and arbitrary discretion as needed to maintain the good of the game, I think we're probably going to be fine.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
20 people? I've gotta say, that's a little disappointing. I know GW isn't looking to grow like the early days of WOW, but 20 people out of all the GenCon attendees is virtual invisibility.
Being ganked while minding your own business can suck. I'm no god of PVP, frothing at the mouth about "care bears ruining my game," but I'm getting worried that GW might be sliding too far toward the "all non-consensual PVP = griefing" end of the spectrum. If I can't opt out of PVP, but those who attack me are on their way to getting banned, then I don't really need to formally opt out.
20 is definitely a low count, I'd say more in the 40-50 range...
There were only about 20 asking questions. It was shoved up in a corner out of the way of primary flow though, almost all there were kick-starter backers.|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I agree, 40-60 is more encouraging than 20.
Re: Griefing vs. War Tactics - War tactics have their cerebral aspects, but I think the appeal of griefing is usually more visceral than cerebral.
What Guurzak said will probably apply, too.
Bah hadn't read all the way through the posts, to see the 20 everyone was throwing around was updated with a picture...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Bah hadn't read all the way through the posts, to see the 20 everyone was throwing around was updated with a picture...I agree, 40-60 is more encouraging than 20.
Re: Griefing vs. War Tactics - War tactics have their cerebral aspects, but I think the appeal of griefing is usually more visceral than cerebral.
What Guurzak said will probably apply, too.
Yeah, 40-60 is much better
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Bah hadn't read all the way through the posts, to see the 20 everyone was throwing around was updated with a picture...I agree, 40-60 is more encouraging than 20.
Re: Griefing vs. War Tactics - War tactics have their cerebral aspects, but I think the appeal of griefing is usually more visceral than cerebral.
What Guurzak said will probably apply, too.
Yeah that is completely my fault. Somewhere between being tired and focusing forward I remembered the numbers about as wrong as I could.
Again, my apologies.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As for the kind of PvP I want to see, I want to see it all in game as early as possible.
WoT, Faction, Feud, SADs, Wars, Bounties, Assassinations, etc.
I haven't seen anyone say they don't want those things in the game.
Why did you leave "make surprise attacks on characters that aren't hostile status to me" off of your list?
That's the only type of PVP I've seen anyone actively trying to discourage.
Mainly because he can use SAD instead. I will throw it on the table though.
If they give us PVP options to use then all is good. To me that list Bludd made is MVP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Roving bands of resource locusts sound scary in theory but the kinds of people who want to inflict pointless grief on others just won't have the ability to keep doing it long enough to be meaningful. Being a resource locust in the context of Settlemtent v Settlemtment conflict is more likely but also has many more mitigating vectors.
If some group does it in ways that are abuseive and harmful to the game we will tell them to stop and if they don't stop, we'll boot them. It's not like they can do it stealthily.
I'm wondering if you feel it is likely not connected to settlement vs settlement conflict?
We have been told over and over again that resources are limited and settlements will not be self sufficient. The ninja harvesting of a rival's resources would fit into that conflict. Sometimes it is easier to hinder your opponent, than build yourself up. You will certainly widen the gap, if you do both.
That is not griefing, that is playing economic warfare. You may say, "Well the feud or use the War mechanics", but in your previous statements you created the impression that there is a better alternative.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are a resource locust because you're trying to economically damage your opponents, that's the system working as intended and there are lots of ways your opponents can mitigate that problem.
There's a corner case where you have an alt account (or character) do it and try to avoid some of those mitigation factors. But that's any easy corner case to detect and resolve: "Dear customer service, we keep finding people in nearby hexes strip mining and they're all aligned with NPC settlements and we can't get rid of them without taking Rep and Alignment hits, please make them stop."
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I haven't seen anyone say they don't want those things in the game.As for the kind of PvP I want to see, I want to see it all in game as early as possible.
WoT, Faction, Feud, SADs, Wars, Bounties, Assassinations, etc.
To be fare, Bluddwolf is right. At various times in the past I have been quite vocal about not wanting any of those things. I have, though, come to accept that my position was unreasonable, and that the risk will contribute to a better experience for most of us. I'm sure there are still lots of people who embrace my original position, though perhaps not as vocally.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At various times in the past I have been quite vocal about not wanting any of those things. I have, though, come to accept that my position was unreasonable, and that the risk will contribute to a better experience for most of us. I'm sure there are still lots of people who embrace my original position, though perhaps not as vocally.
I'm extremely glad that you were able to stick around long enough to evolve your stance. I hope the others in your position continue to be welcomed into the community, and given the soft encouragement to really consider the issues. I expect many will not only come to accept the PvP in PFO, but also to, eventually, embrace it. I truly believe that most folks' negative experiences with PvP are actually negative experiences with griefing. PvP is fun.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are a resource locust because you're trying to economically damage your opponents, that's the system working as intended and there are lots of ways your opponents can mitigate that problem.
There's a corner case where you have an alt account (or character) do it and try to avoid some of those mitigation factors. But that's any easy corner case to detect and resolve: "Dear customer service, we keep finding people in nearby hexes strip mining and they're all aligned with NPC settlements and we can't get rid of them without taking Rep and Alignment hits, please make them stop."
Concern Obliterated. Thanks Ryan.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Concern Obliterated. Thanks Ryan.If you are a resource locust because you're trying to economically damage your opponents, that's the system working as intended and there are lots of ways your opponents can mitigate that problem.
There's a corner case where you have an alt account (or character) do it and try to avoid some of those mitigation factors. But that's any easy corner case to detect and resolve: "Dear customer service, we keep finding people in nearby hexes strip mining and they're all aligned with NPC settlements and we can't get rid of them without taking Rep and Alignment hits, please make them stop."
Agreed. If it's that easy to stop the alt shenanigans, then it should go back to being an issue within the system, where we can counterattack.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If you are a resource locust because you're trying to economically damage your opponents, that's the system working as intended and there are lots of ways your opponents can mitigate that problem.
There's a corner case where you have an alt account (or character) do it and try to avoid some of those mitigation factors. But that's any easy corner case to detect and resolve: "Dear customer service, we keep finding people in nearby hexes strip mining and they're all aligned with NPC settlements and we can't get rid of them without taking Rep and Alignment hits, please make them stop."
This requires that settlements have the tools to take care of the problem themselves. So if the SAD mechanics are in, along with the proto settlements, then all is good! There is no hiding behind an NPC settlement when confronted with a SAD demand.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This doesn't help vs a horde of safehold-affiliated locust alts. I appreciate the suggestion of customer service, but it would be preferable to have a mechanical system in place rather than having to appeal for human intervention.
Perhaps safehold citizens simply cannot harvest in settlement-claimed hexes, or perhaps they become attackable whenever they do.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm not seeing in the scenario described a way to identify which settlement all the alts are feeding.. unless it is to stealthily track them to their smallholding, hanging there in the underbrush, then seeing who picks up and where they go.
That could become a fairly interesting game in itself.
If they go back to Safetown it grows problematic. Too many people to track back to the problem settlement that is behind it all.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Perhaps safehold citizens simply cannot harvest in settlement-claimed hexes, or perhaps they become attackable whenever they do.
I'm not sure I object to this solution, but please please please build in a warning if harvesting in random spots can get you killed.
Allow the warning to be turned off, by all means, but otherwise you'll have open season on exploring newbies.
The tool they need is to declare war on the Settlement that is strip mining their local resources, or feud the Company involved.
The post you made prior to this one, Ryan, scared me. It sounded like "we'll just ban people that are doing it" instead of building smart mechanics to allow the players to take care of resource locusts (loci?) themselves. This most recent commend quells said fears. :)
Question: is there (or do you plan to have) a mechanic to deal with resource incursions from non-company/non-settlement sources? As in, could settlements define their hex as open or closed to harvests.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This doesn't help vs a horde of safehold-affiliated locust alts. I appreciate the suggestion of customer service, but it would be preferable to have a mechanical system in place rather than having to appeal for human intervention.
Perhaps safehold citizens simply cannot harvest in settlement-claimed hexes, or perhaps they become attackable whenever they do.
Ryan had previously expressed an opinion related to this, that those characters who remain in NPC Settlements would forego some of the protections of the system. I expect there's an ongoing struggle between making it difficult to use throwaway alts, and making the game accessible to new players.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The tool they need is to declare war on the Settlement that is strip mining their local resources, or feud the Company involved.
Said settlement says "Thank You for spending the DI."
Said Company full of locusts and nothing else "Log off time, grab your PVP mains its time for some fun"
Now, if the settlement in the territory being stripped chooses one over the other...
If Settlement, Company continues stripping territory while the settlements fight.
If Company, The members of this company just log off and wait out feud, happy that the enemy wasted DI... or just drops company for another one.
@Thranx I believe they do plan to have something like that. The great part about it is... no matter the reason, if someone attacks a member of your party, the rest of your party can counter risk free.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This doesn't help vs a horde of safehold-affiliated locust alts. I appreciate the suggestion of customer service, but it would be preferable to have a mechanical system in place rather than having to appeal for human intervention.
Perhaps safehold citizens simply cannot harvest in settlement-claimed hexes, or perhaps they become attackable whenever they do.
I'm not sure I like that fix. I frankly see myself and others from my settlement encouraging new players in the safeholds to step out of the NPC protected areas and join us or others in mass gathering or escalation events. We'd do it in unclaimed spaces or in our own territory, but that latter case isn't possible with your suggestion.
edit to add: giving the settlement citizens the ability to challenge outsiders or maybe just safeholders, to force them to stop harvesting (or else!), might be a workable compromise.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yea, I think what we will have is patches to the corner cases until we have the ability to set the Law ourselves.
Feuding/War Decs are only going to work in the most obvious of wars, which there will probably be some, most of the time you won't be having the issues described, but corner cases will need to be resolved.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are a resource locust because you're trying to economically damage your opponents, that's the system working as intended and there are lots of ways your opponents can mitigate that problem.
There's a corner case where you have an alt account (or character) do it and try to avoid some of those mitigation factors. But that's any easy corner case to detect and resolve: "Dear customer service, we keep finding people in nearby hexes strip mining and they're all aligned with NPC settlements and we can't get rid of them without taking Rep and Alignment hits, please make them stop."
Sounds far more like a design issue that should be fixed rather than something left up to customer service.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think maybe part of the entire crowd-forging/MVP process is separating the wheat from the chaff; the problems that need mechanical fixes from the corner cases that can be solved without a mechanical fix. I don't think that Ryan should tell us a mechanical fix is on its way - because in the end, there might not really be a need for such a fix.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Corner cases... Implies rarity, when the opposite is more then likely true.
That may, indeed, be true. We're dealing with hypotheticals here.
It remains hypothetical until some group of NPC settlement-based alts encounter some seemingly arbitrary and capricious fate. If they don't encounter such a fate, and there's no mechanical block to their activity, then such activity will likely become commonplace. If the use of NPC-settlement alts for clever purposes just seems a fast way to destroy an alt, people might curtail the triggering behavior and it would be rare.
edit to add: destruction doesn't even have to be complete and final. Having a group of alts suddenly finding themselves at -2500 or -5000 Rep might be a wake-up that the players can recover from, in time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Corner cases... Implies rarity, when the opposite is more then likely true.
What?? You mean corner cases are not just about anything that we have learned can be done in dozens of other games, in over a decade's worth of playing MMOs?
Corner cases are not only rare, they are unforeseen. We are describing possibilities, and they are being labeled as corner cases.
No, they are not corner cases, they are common cases. Some have known fixes, some have not been solved even by companies bigger, better funded and or more experienced than GW. We would like to hear (read) that issues are seen as real and how they might be fixed. Not, "file a ticket with customer service". That is not constructive or supportive of a crowd forging process.
For example:
in the Adventure Time w Bonny, last week, few participants failed to recognize that there was a problem with targeting which resulted in many of the players inadvertently ending up with low rep (including Bonny).
How is GW addressing this issue?
I hope this is not yet another corner case.
Until it is, I would avoid running escalations in a large group.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's a corner case [....] "Dear customer service, we keep finding people in nearby hexes strip mining and they're all aligned with NPC settlements and we can't get rid of them without taking Rep and Alignment hits, please make them stop."
But... that only works if the company actually listens to the players, and everybody knows tha... oh, right. This is Goblinworks - talking to them is actually very likely to work.
To paraphrase (with great artistic liberty): We don't believe this will be an actual problem. If so happens, we'll deal with it.