Sorry. :) I've gotten a bit cynical in my older age about who really is a lady on the internet. Too many times when I assumed that a female avatar would mean that really a female person was be before the screen, only to be proven wrong. ^^Her. :-PI'd planned starting my own Wrath PBP here but minus the mythic rules entirely for the PCs. I'm curious what the interest would be like.Story Archer is finishing up a campaign where the player characters were not mythic but rather gained an additional level every two tiers, so you might want to try to contact him about advice on that kind of campaign.
In my experience you'd be right more often that wrong... I just happen to be the exception.
I wonder, does that make me exception-al?
Sorry. :) I've gotten a bit cynical in my older age about who really is a lady on the internet. Too many times when I assumed that a female avatar would mean that really a female person was be before the screen, only to be proven wrong. ^^Her. :-PI'd planned starting my own Wrath PBP here but minus the mythic rules entirely for the PCs. I'm curious what the interest would be like.Story Archer is finishing up a campaign where the player characters were not mythic but rather gained an additional level every two tiers, so you might want to try to contact him about advice on that kind of campaign.
It's all Mikaze's fault.
It's all Mikaze's fault.Sorry. :) I've gotten a bit cynical in my older age about who really is a lady on the internet. Too many times when I assumed that a female avatar would mean that really a female person was be before the screen, only to be proven wrong. ^^Her. :-PI'd planned starting my own Wrath PBP here but minus the mythic rules entirely for the PCs. I'm curious what the interest would be like.Story Archer is finishing up a campaign where the player characters were not mythic but rather gained an additional level every two tiers, so you might want to try to contact him about advice on that kind of campaign.
Well, it probably doesn't help that my husband (Wiggz) and I share an account. Gender confusion on the internet will never bother me, I just figured I'd through it out there for you boys ;)
Those are good ideas for a group that likes puzzles, not so good for groups like mine. I'd have one player trying to solve it and three others sitting on their hands getting bored.
There's another thread going on about puzzle fights. Although those are cool ideas they remove importance on character classes and thus the characters that the players made.
True, they are not for every group. I find them more interesting than just rolling dice constantly to see how big I can make my damage until the thing I'm fighting dies or kills me. I've had trouble using stats as written effectively in combat because my players always have an answer, so making them think outside the box makes for a more challenging encounter.
What sort of things does your party find entertaining, and how do you keep them engaged in combat? What sort of things to do you add to a fight to make it more of a challenge for your players?
I'd planned starting my own Wrath PBP here but minus the mythic rules entirely for the PCs. I'm curious what the interest would be like.
Pick me! Pick me! Pick me!
-Matt would aim for a wuxia-style sword monk.
I am running a group of 5 through this AP and we are almost through Demon's Heresy (Book 3). So far the group is enjoying it and we are determined to see it through.
My observations:
1. Mythic tiers are underestimated in determining APL.
- I have begun counting mythic tiers as full levels. Has helped a bit.
2. Single, powerful enemies or small groups, are at significant disadvantage due to action economy and PC's higher initiatives. Often the creature gets 1 round, or no rounds before the beatdown is done.
- Adding 1 additional creature to the groups has helped greatly in raising the challenge level. 3 drakeriders at Arushalae's reboubt nearly TPK'd the party.
- I am considering adding a "boss template" to single monsters or the main monster in a mixed group consisting of improved initiative and combat relexes to give them a chance to get some actions in. Will playtest this next session.
Those are good ideas for a group that likes puzzles, not so good for groups like mine. I'd have one player trying to solve it and three others sitting on their hands getting bored.
There's another thread going on about puzzle fights. Although those are cool ideas they remove importance on character classes and thus the characters that the players made.
True, they are not for every group. I find them more interesting than just rolling dice constantly to see how big I can make my damage until the thing I'm fighting dies or kills me. I've had trouble using stats as written effectively in combat because my players always have an answer, so making them think outside the box makes for a more challenging encounter.
What sort of things does your party find entertaining, and how do you keep them engaged in combat? What sort of things to do you add to a fight to make it more of a challenge for your players?
Whew...that is a tough question :)
Currently I have new mix of players so I try to challenge them via things that are possible by the rules, but with slightly different expected abilities so you can't look at a creature and recite its abilities. Mythic did succeed at that, it does add differences that people weren't expecting.
I'm going to be switching to Skull and Shackles so I want to bring in the environment more to make encounters more cinematic in a way. I'm thinking of a 'combat type' deck of sorts like the chase ideas. I'd like to think of combat as more than 'I swing my sword'.
It's all Mikaze's fault.Sorry. :) I've gotten a bit cynical in my older age about who really is a lady on the internet. Too many times when I assumed that a female avatar would mean that really a female person was be before the screen, only to be proven wrong. ^^Her. :-PI'd planned starting my own Wrath PBP here but minus the mythic rules entirely for the PCs. I'm curious what the interest would be like.Story Archer is finishing up a campaign where the player characters were not mythic but rather gained an additional level every two tiers, so you might want to try to contact him about advice on that kind of campaign.
You can say that again. ^^
i blame Cosmo:)
Just wondering if anyone is running a group similar to mine (so I know whether to expect these issues or not). I have 5 PCs, 15 point buy, Average Starting Wealth, no traits, and slow xp track. So far we're having a good time, and they had to retreat from the mongrel lair and rest.
It is hard for me to gauge whether or not they'd be considered "optimized" characters or not.
EDIT: Would probably help if I provided more information regarding the party make up.
Dwarven Cleric of Torag
12, 12, 15, 10, 16, 11
Human Ranger (Favored enemy Outsider(Evil)) - Ranged Weapon Track
13, 16, 10, 12, 12, 12
Half-Elf Barbarian - Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword)
17, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8
Gnome Summoner
8, 12, 15, 14, 10, 16
Tiefling Rogue
14, 15, 12, 13, 12, 10
I can give more information if anyone wants it. We just got out into Kenebres and they've just hit level 2 (So they're a level behind of what the AP expects)
I have 3 PCs (fighter, sorcerer, bard) and a GMNPC (cleric) with no paladins, 15-point buy, 150 gp starting wealth, matching the levels as written (1st level in chapter 1, 2nd level in chapter 2, etc.)
So very similar parties, and I very nearly killed the fighter in the mongrel lair, and they did have to retreat from it and rest. The bard had a hilarious near-death experience (-8 HP with a CON of 10) after falling into the humorously-placed spiked pit trap.
So 2 chapters, two PCs to -5 HP or below, even with Anivia, Gwerm, and Aravasnhiel friendly. Anevia's been a downright howitzer for them. So far, not bad at all.
Starting chapter 3 (Kenabres) on Sunday and playing weekly. If things start getting easy for them I'll definitely update here.
It'll get easy once they go Mythic and get the third tier.
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They've been keeping the NPCs back in safety.
Otherwise, everyone has been knocked out at some point, save for the Gnome Summoner...
Just wondering if anyone is running a group similar to mine (so I know whether to expect these issues or not). I have 5 PCs, 15 point buy, Average Starting Wealth, no traits, and slow xp track. So far we're having a good time, and they had to retreat from the mongrel lair and rest.
It is hard for me to gauge whether or not they'd be considered "optimized" characters or not.
EDIT: Would probably help if I provided more information regarding the party make up.
Dwarven Cleric of Torag
12, 12, 15, 10, 16, 11
Human Ranger (Favored enemy Outsider(Evil)) - Ranged Weapon Track
13, 16, 10, 12, 12, 12
Half-Elf Barbarian - Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword)
17, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8
Gnome Summoner
8, 12, 15, 14, 10, 16
Tiefling Rogue
14, 15, 12, 13, 12, 10I can give more information if anyone wants it. We just got out into Kenebres and they've just hit level 2 (So they're a level behind of what the AP expects)
This sounds like a very well balanced party with very reasonable and balanced stats. I would be interested to hear some updates on how you guys do as you progress into the Mythic portions of the campaign and what, if anything you have to change to challenge your party.
They sound like an interesting group, and I wish you luck!
I did come up with a modification for the Tier 3 ability to gain a Standard Action. Increase the Mythic Point cost. This is in essence the same as spending 1 Hero Point, but Hero Points don't regenerate nearly as quickly.
So if you want to gain a standard action using Mythic Points? You have to spend 7 Mythic Points to do so. This means that a Tier 8 character could gain three standard actions if that was the only thing they spent Mythic Points on.
It also creates a tactical element to this. Do you burn off half of your Mythic Points just to get an extra action? You might need those points later on, after all.
Question for those who have already run this AP....
What would likely happen if a group tried to run the AP without Mythic ?
There are a couple of people who are running it without Mythic. From the sounds of things, there is a higher mortality rate but ultimately it doesn't make too much of a difference. Heck, I must admit some curiosity as to how a four-character 15-point build without ANY extras would do - not the "recommended stat increases" or the Devotional bonuses at the end of the first book.
An optimized group may very well still succeed at this.
And of course if it were a six-man crew, then they'd likely have an easier time of things.
Here's what I learned from siccing mythic monsters on non-Mythic characters: it makes them step back a moment when a monster that should be easy for them ends up causing trouble. For instance, I ruled that a Paladin's Smite Evil wouldn't penetrate Epic/Mythic Damage Resistance. So the Paladin was unable to easily hurt a mythic half-fiend gargoyle. But it was only one, while it faced five characters and two cohorts.
Of course, there is one possibility you could run with: The Wardstones leave the PCs immortal - as in the 10th Tier Mythic Immortality. So they can be killed. But the next day they wake up at full health. A Total Party Kill ends up not being the game-ending note it once was, and the PCs need not worry about resurrection magic. But it gives them NO other abilities.
And if everyone dies, or someone is left behind? They lose their equipment when their bodies are looted.
Which might effectivly end things anyway. If they have to limp along with 1st level equipment after getting looted, it will take too much time to build themselves back up.
Yes, but could you do it while being limited to 20 levels?
@Andrea1 - That depends on how stupid the players are. If they leave some of their treasure at Dresden, for instance, then they could resupply and get some decent stuff. They also don't need to sell every item they loot - they could keep some in reserve in case it's needed later.
Just curious as one of the non-Mythic chaps was going to level the players past 20 so... are you also stripping Mythic from the encounters? Outside of the Demon Lords, of course.
just remember when complaining about WotR
you all asked for it, for years!
A failed AP? Yup, the WotR PbP I successfully joined didn't make it to 50 posts… ;(
or just leave enemies as is and dont give pcs mythic options just extra levels
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Would that still not put them well above the NPCs in power though? I have a friend who said back in 3.5 the Book of Vile Darkness was the best published because it gave power to the enemy, the book of Exalted Deeds was not so good because PCs already have the power.
I also find that giving NPCs on par for level decent gear increases the CR. Use hero lab and put the CR part up when you make an NPC enemy and see how much it tells you your saves and dmg is to high.
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I highly doubt he was refering to Mythic Play, maybe just an AP in the World Wound in general.
I can See why they wanted to make it Mythic though, the entire idea of a portal to the Abyss is Epic, and one that is held at bay by a race specific wall is interesting. They really should have beefed the hell out of the enemies but maybe it is just us who has to pick up where they left off.
just remember when complaining about WotR
you all asked for it, for years!Yes, everyone asked for a horrendously balanced system which is basically unplayable as written.
Do you really believe what you said?
I assume you meant to say "unbalanced" ???
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just remember when complaining about WotR
you all asked for it, for years!Yes, everyone asked for a horrendously balanced system which is basically unplayable as written.
Do you really believe what you said?
People have been asking for an AP that went to high and/or "epic" levels for years. That is undeniably true, as has been Paizo's insistence that high/epic levels are difficult to do in an AP. Whether or not Mythic is horrendously [un]balanced, as you say, is beside the point that Capt. Yesterday was making.
-Skeld
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In my case, our group of players realised that you can do incredibly broken things with Mythic, and we have a 'Gentleman's Agreement' with our GM (this was his idea). We don't super optimize, and neither will he.
We have 4 players (2 vets, 2 intermediate players), traditional class roles and a 15 point buy. Wizard (Abjurer), Cleric of Torag (Good/Glory), TWF Rogue and a Paladin. (Okay Oracle/Divine Scion/Paladin, but that's the exception.)
There have been a few fights where we dominated the field, but not too much more than any other AP. The fights have been quite challenging, but as I understand it our GM upped the CR's because he agreed that 1 tier does not equal 1/2 CR. The Wizard is starting to pull away around Book 4, though. As the Rogue I just can't keep up with the things he can do. Again, that happens in normal games though...
just remember when complaining about WotR
you all asked for it, for years!Yes, everyone asked for a horrendously balanced system which is basically unplayable as written.
Do you really believe what you said?
People have been asking for an AP that went to high and/or "epic" levels for years. That is undeniably true, as has been Paizo's insistence that high/epic levels are difficult to do in an AP. Whether or not Mythic is horrendously [un]balanced, as you say, is beside the point that Capt. Yesterday was making.
-Skeld
thank you! And yes as long as i've been playing with APs there has been a loud contingent asking for a high level change the world close the worldwound AP. Well here it is you asked for it:)
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Has anyone thought to use the Mythic Flaws? That could be the balancing force, remember what Uncle Ben said "With great power comes great responsibility" Each super hero has some sort of flaw or something that can bring them to their knees.
This would be a great AP for a solid back story because well demons don't play by any rules not even their own.
Your PC has a family, the demons just kidnapped your child and plan to sacrifice him to Baphomet or some other such thing.
Your PC has to drink a litre of purpler kool-aid daily or he starts to lose Mythic surges at a cost of 1 per day.
THey can have all their fun goodies but try finding purple kool-aid in the Abyss. (I know dumb example but it is something not easy to come by.)
wait! There isnt any purple kool aid in the abyss! I really need to start making more realistic and attainable summer vacation plans:)
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Seriously though, I'm going to be running this in about a month, and while I appreciate the "heads up" this thread has been... I refuse to let it beat me. I'm going to run it, and I've let my PCs know that they are on board for an experimental system, because while I doubt I'll have another campaign get to 10th tier or anywhere close, I want to make this work.
Rather than a thread where we constantly harp on how broken the AP is, or how so-and-so's party had to quit in book 3, let's figure out a way to make this thing work: It's got to be epic, I understand, but let's not forget that we have options. Figuring out what the best options are: That should be the objective here.
So far, I've seen a few suggestions that seem feasible:
[list]
What I want to know is what of these options works? My party is 15 point buy. I'm planning on buffing encounters and adding elements to existing ones that will make them more strategically complex. But I do those things in every campaign I run, AP or no.
Has anyone considered running this AP with Gestalt PCs instead of Mythic?
I think that could work out well. For additional HP perhaps give them Toughness for free at the time they would normally gain their first mythic level.
Doing this will not directly increase BAB but it offers some other options of upping the to hit.
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Tabletop: is your group one of those that might be amenable to a "gentlefolk agreement" not to make broken Mythic options, and to rebuild characters if they come out feeling broken? It's probably a hard thing to put your finger on, but there were suggestions above of making sure that you've got a mix between skill, defense, and offense mythic options, rather than hyperfocusing each character on one (probably offense).
Seriously though, I'm going to be running this in about a month, and while I appreciate the "heads up" this thread has been... I refuse to let it beat me. I'm going to run it, and I've let my PCs know that they are on board for an experimental system, because while I doubt I'll have another campaign get to 10th tier or anywhere close, I want to make this work.
Rather than a thread where we constantly harp on how broken the AP is, or how so-and-so's party had to quit in book 3, let's figure out a way to make this thing work: It's got to be epic, I understand, but let's not forget that we have options. Figuring out what the best options are: That should be the objective here.
So far, I've seen a few suggestions that seem feasible:
[list]
15 point buy
Mythic Flaws
Only go to 5th Tier
Buff encounters by either buffing monsters, or increasing the number of combatants. Between +1 to +3 CR seems to be the right numbers. What I want to know is what of these options works? My party is 15 point buy. I'm planning on buffing encounters and adding elements to existing ones that will make them more strategically complex. But I do those things in every campaign I run, AP or no.
Magnuskn's "ongoing campaign coverage" thread does have some good advice, and while it can sometimes get caught in the negativity, is generally geared towards coming up with ideas for making it work. I highly advise using it as a reference. It's only gotten to book 3, but it seems like a good reference point.
Has anyone considered running this AP with Gestalt PCs instead of Mythic?I think that could work out well. For additional HP perhaps give them Toughness for free at the time they would normally gain their first mythic level.
Doing this will not directly increase BAB but it offers some other options of upping the to hit.
Trust me, Gestalt can easily become far more overpowered than mythic. My invisible pouncing (scout ninja)/(synthesist summoner) was proof of this in one game. Heck, even simple things like a fighter/rogue are crazy powerful.
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Seriously though, I'm going to be running this in about a month, and while I appreciate the "heads up" this thread has been... I refuse to let it beat me. I'm going to run it, and I've let my PCs know that they are on board for an experimental system, because while I doubt I'll have another campaign get to 10th tier or anywhere close, I want to make this work.
Rather than a thread where we constantly harp on how broken the AP is, or how so-and-so's party had to quit in book 3, let's figure out a way to make this thing work: It's got to be epic, I understand, but let's not forget that we have options. Figuring out what the best options are: That should be the objective here.
So far, I've seen a few suggestions that seem feasible:
[list]
15 point buy
Mythic Flaws
Only go to 5th Tier
Buff encounters by either buffing monsters, or increasing the number of combatants. Between +1 to +3 CR seems to be the right numbers. What I want to know is what of these options works? My party is 15 point buy. I'm planning on buffing encounters and adding elements to existing ones that will make them more strategically complex. But I do those things in every campaign I run, AP or no.
As has been mentioned, the 'ongoing campaign' discussion seems to have some salient points. Of the suggestions you're looking at, I would personally avoid "Only go to 5th Tier." If you're going to incorporate the system, incorporate its full benefits. Here are some thoughts that may help you:
1) Point Buy will stop mattering in a significant way by book 3. Higher point buy does permit players to have some broader stats or avoid a certain level of min-maxing stats for single-stat users, but in the end the difference is still only a +2-+3 to certain stats. By book 4-5, this is a drop in a very large bucket. It will, however, impact books 1 and 2 and possibly give them a bit more of a fight in the earliest stages.
2) Assume that their true "CR" as a party is their Level + Tier + 1 starting after mid-book 2. Build your encounters with this in mind, using the original written encounter as the backbone of the encounter. Increase this number by +1 for a 5-6 man team possibly.
In short: Mythic Tier seems less impressive at Tiers 1-2, depending on how carefully the PCs choose their first powers. However, it can very quickly ratchet up its potency once they're using their Amazing Initiative to buy extra standard actions (especially if they are frequently under mythic Haste.). The reality is that we saw 'challenges' when our GM treated us as if our tiers were actual full levels, and boosted it by +1 because of the incredibly high amount of gold the party had access to.
This suggestion begins to break down around book 4, especially late book 4. It also struggles when dealing with 1-2 'big' opponents as opposed to large numbers of slightly smaller threats that can nevertheless soak up attacks while causing damage.
By Book 4, if you're using these numbers, the party is roughly the equivalent of CR 18 for a 4 person team. By book's end, they are slated to be around CR 22 by these numbers, which means that things like Balors and Pit Fiends are 'at CR' when pitted against them. From what I've seen, now being roughly 2/3-3/4 of the way into Book 5, this is holding up fairly consistently. We were recently pitted against a CR 24 creature with specific and unique abilities that, in my opinion at least, made it closer to a CR 25. By the numbers, the fight went pretty close to 'by the book,' for a CR +1 encounter.
Build in all encounters outside of Nascent Demon Lords and Demon Lords (I have only limited experience with how these beasts impact CR) with the assumption that these are the 'real' levels, and fights will go more appropriately.
Suggestions in Beefing up Encounters:
1) Hit Points are cheap. Maximize them. - Don't feel bad about maximizing the hit points of every named encounter. Both you and the party will be dishing out considerable hit point damage on connected hits with mythic opponents. DR is effectively meaningless when PCs are using mythic critical effects and foe-bitering opposition. The Hit Point mechanic is probably the one thing that truly breaks down most clearly in the Mythic systems. It's too easily overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
Basically, straight Advanced Template and Maximized Hit Points are your friends.
2) Life is cheap. Send more mooks. - Don't focus on making your individual threats bigger and badder. The higher that PCs go into the mythic tiers, the more raw damage they can put out in a single shot. Having one incredible power-house against two to three high-damage producing threats will mean that the party sees far fewer of that high threat's abilities. Instead, bolster encounters with increased numbers of salient threats. These should be creatures capable of hitting the party and capable of sustaining enough damage that a PC will have to focus attention on them to bring them down, rather than kill multiples in a round. Consider light Mythic Powers for these mooks (Use the Mythic Minotaur as something of a template for the way this can be done.).
Why Mooks are better than single high-end targets: They soak up attacks, slowing party pace in killing enemies. They increase the possibility of hitting characters and enable flanks. They threaten 'background aids' like Clerics and Wizards more easily through sheer numbers. They are mythic power sponges, draining resources before later encounters during those situations where PCs can't simply walk out of the zone, take a break and come back the next day. They buy time, if there is a boss they're protecting, allowing that boss to cause more havoc through their own abilities (especially for Cleric/Wizard enemy threats).
3) Abuse terrain and CMD tricks whenever possible. You ever notice how Tarry Demodands are kind of a minor pain in the tuckus because of that whole 'reflex save or your weapon is stuck' thing? Remember tricks like that. They can shift the flow of combat depending upon your PCs' respective builds and seriously alter the difficulty of an encounter back towards more natural levels.
4) When you really want to challenge them... send a PC.
There are numerous occasions where a humanoid NPC may be encountered who could possibly survive an encounter. If they have reason to continue their fight against the PCs, feel free to bring them back, level them up and above all, give them Mythic Power. With enough time between encounters, they have the justification of retraining and you can set their stats more appropriately to harrying the party. I don't suggest this in every encounter, but there is nothing in the GM's handbook that is telling you not to toss in the occasional Mythic Trickster or Champion who knows the party's tactics from past experience and adds their own fresh breed of heck to an encounter.
In these situations, "What is good for the Goose is good for the Gander." They like to use touch attacks for their melee strikes and foe-biter their attacks with mythic criticals? Return the favor. I don't suggest doing this often, as it can really threaten the party's ability to progress through the whole storyline (As some have noted: Defense in Mythic Campaigns is at a premium, while Offense is deceptively cheap. Too much of this can TPK the party too easily, much like they're TPK'ing multi-Glebrezu ambushes...). However, once in a while it adds some serious 'spice' to a fight.
5) Be aware of Action Economy
-Standard and Move actions are a dime a dozen at Mythic. People buy them for a pittance and can get to the point of basically taking two turns at once in some cases.
Immediate/Swift Actions, however... have a quick look at those nifty Mythic Powers and tell me how many are Swift Actions, and then check class abilities... and then remember.
They only get one/round. Trust me. It's come up more times than you can shake a stick at. Forcing high DC saves to cause surges to be used, thus taking that precious swift action away next round? It's been one of our GM's most damaging effects.
Trust me, Gestalt can easily become far more overpowered than mythic. My invisible pouncing (scout ninja)/(synthesist summoner) was proof of this in one game. Heck, even simple things like a fighter/rogue are crazy powerful.Has anyone considered running this AP with Gestalt PCs instead of Mythic?I think that could work out well. For additional HP perhaps give them Toughness for free at the time they would normally gain their first mythic level.
Doing this will not directly increase BAB but it offers some other options of upping the to hit.
Sure, some individual builds can be broken, but its not actually as bad as all that. With gestalt characters, you're still stuck with the normal allotment of actions, your BAB, saves, hit points, access to spells, etc. never progresses any faster or any higher than that of a standard class... I find it to be a nice compromise.
A 12th level Gestalt Barbarian won't have any more hit points, a higher BAB or faster access to feats or Rage powers than a standard Barbarian of the same level, a 12th level Gestalt Wizard won't cast more spells in a round or have access to higher level spells than a standard 12th level Wizard... for the most part all you gain as a Gestalt is versatility, not power.
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I'd institute several modifications to Mythic. I've mentioned some of them before, but here's what I recall off the top of my head.
1. Mythic Stat boosts are only +1 to a stat. This puts it on par with stat increases gained every 4 levels, and means without magic the stats should only increase by +10 between levels and Tiers (assuming you go to Tier 10).
2. Increase the Mythic Point cost for additional standard actions to 5 Mythic Points. Please note that Hero Points are able to do this same exact thing - allow an extra move or standard action for the use of one Hero Point. Hero Points don't recharge overnight. So to make this skill more balanced, having it be a huge chunk of the character's Mythic Points makes sense.
3. Don't allow the Initiative boost for Mythic Tier 3 (and up).
4. The Archmage Mythic casting abilities (either casting any spell or recasting memorized/known spells) are no longer Swift actions but instead are Standard actions. This is a broken ability. The Swift Spell Feat increases a spell level by +4. And Hierophant doesn't allow it anyway.
5. After the players have reached the 3rd Tier, start giving every single foe the Advanced Creature template. Don't boost XPs to compensate.
6. For Mythic Boss Encounters, consider maximizing hit points and then tripling that amount. To compensate, reduce the damage of the enemy by half (though feel free to modify this on the fly). A Mythic Big Bad should not drop in one round. But just increasing hit points alone will likely result in one-sided rocket tag where the players all die because they are taking so much damage in return.
7. Nerf Mythic Power Attack. Only allow it to increase damage to +3 (much like Mythic Deadly Aim).
Small note - #7 is vital. I cannot emphasize enough how much damage players can do with the current broken state of Mythic Power Attack.
8. Double the Mythic point cost of Mythic spells.
9. This is up to you. Nerf critical hits for both sides. Have critical hits act like Vital Strike - the ONLY thing multiplied is the damage dice. So a 10th level fighter with Mythic Improved Critical, Mythic Power Attack, and a Strength of 20 who criticals with a +2 long sword would only do 3d8 + 16 (9 (power attack) + 5 (strength) +2 (sword bonus)) (Compare this to the current state of things, where it would be 3d8 + 75 ((18 (power attack) +5 (strength) +2 (sword))x3)).
Just fixing critical hits alone should significantly lessen the rocket-tag element of the game, but you do have to be careful with overpowered spells, thus my suggest of increasing the mythic point cost of mythic spells.
Trust me, Gestalt can easily become far more overpowered than mythic. My invisible pouncing (scout ninja)/(synthesist summoner) was proof of this in one game. Heck, even simple things like a fighter/rogue are crazy powerful.Has anyone considered running this AP with Gestalt PCs instead of Mythic?I think that could work out well. For additional HP perhaps give them Toughness for free at the time they would normally gain their first mythic level.
Doing this will not directly increase BAB but it offers some other options of upping the to hit.
Sure, some individual builds can be broken, but its not actually as bad as all that. With gestalt characters, you're still stuck with the normal allotment of actions, your BAB, saves, hit points, access to spells, etc. never progresses any faster or any higher than that of a standard class... I find it to be a nice compromise.
A 12th level Gestalt Barbarian won't have any more hit points, a higher BAB or faster access to feats or Rage powers than a standard Barbarian of the same level, a 12th level Gestalt Wizard won't cast more spells in a round or have access to higher level spells than a standard 12th level Wizard... for the most part all you gain as a Gestalt is versatility, not power.
True. The problem is just that I find in pathfinder you have to consiously try to avoid creating a gestalt with abilities that stack. Putting together any two classes that care at all about melee is powerful (a fighter/barbarian is a barbarian with +5 to attack/damage and 10 extra feats). Pairing any two spellcaster classes is also powerful since your spells per day doubles and your spell list becomes huge. The only real way to avoid stacking abilities is to purposefully have one class be pure melee and the other be pure spellcaster, but even then they could go the eldritch knight route and buff themselves with impunity.
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Thanks Zeqiel and Tangent101! I'm gonna check Magnuskn's thread out, I don't know if I've actually looked into it.
I'm going to keep your ideas on the table, and to answer rknop: They're okay with things changing. I have yet to ask them to consider de-optimizing themselves, but I think they're good enough for it.
I don't want to spam this thread with weekly updates, since I have my own campaign journal here, but I'll just say that as of level 3 in Chapter 3 of Book 1, the PCs are finding the encounters plenty challenging.
The only "silly" encounter was Vagorg, who convinced me that either:
(a) Reach weapons aren't all they're cracked up to be, or
(b) Reach weapons suck in a small room.
Needless to say, my party forced him into a corner and surrounded him so his ranseur was utterly useless (but not before he disarmed the fighter with it).
We're playing weekly and managing about a chapter a week (though the exploration of Kenabres involves NPCs so of course my players are taking hours roleplaying out those parts). As I mentioned before, I'll post here as "ludicrously-easy" fights pop up, but so far the party isn't mythic, and the fights are at a very acceptable difficulty level.
I expect this weekend to be almost entirely dedicated to the PCs finding out the fates of their family members, so we won't hit Chapter 4 for a couple of weeks, and won't hit Mythic 'til the end of June at the earliest.
Still combining work and posting (somewhat successfully), but reading Magnukin's excellent ongoing coverage, I have to say that I'm a little less worried about my group.
- No classes outside of Core (straight-up sword-and-board fighter, straight-up cleric, straight-up arcane bloodline sorcerer, and straight-up bard). No archtypes or other modifications from "extended" rulebooks
- No races outside of Core, except a tengu, which isn't exactly a "power-gamer" race (2 humans, a half-elf, and a tengu)
- A strong aversion to "save or suck" spells for fear of wasting actions on spells that don't work
So I'm looking at the abilities and powers that are breaking Magnuskin's game and thinking, "My players just won't do that..."
Of course, time will tell, and I'll post updates as we proceed...