PCs and Templates (Half-Celestial)

[SirPeter]

Hi!

I have a doubt: the templates are applicable only to monsters, or can I use on PCs? For example, could I make a half-celestial human fighter, or a half-elf half-dragon magus and play with them? Where can I find the rules?

Thank you!

[cartmanbeck]

SirPeter wrote:

Hi!

I have a doubt: the templates are applicable only to monsters, or can I use on PCs? For example, could I make a half-celestial human fighter, or a half-elf half-dragon magus and play with them? Where can I find the rules?

Thank you!

That is COMPLETELY up to your GM. A half-celestial or half-dragon character will be significantly more powerful than a regular race character of the same level, so you'd have to be balanced out some other way. You can't use things like this in Pathfinder Society, for sure.

[SirPeter]

And what about the rules?

[Samasboy1]

There is nothing in the rules that would prevent adding a template to a PC race. Indeed, human half celestials exist in various products.

The ability to play one is up to the DM.

The template raises your character level, by the CR modification of the template. So a Human Half Celestial Paladin 4 is a 5th level character.

Note, half celestial (and a few other templates) don't have a fixed CR modification like most templates. So as you gain levels, the template will increase in power and add more levels to your character.

A Human Half Celestial Paladin 6 is an 8th level character (2 extra levels).

A Human Half Celestial Paladin 11 is a 14th level character (3 extra levels).

[Aegys]

Where does it say that is raises the PC's character level?
I've never seen anything like that.
From what I've been able to tell adding a template to a character is just DM discretion. Pathfinder puts alot more control over races in the hands of the DM than 3.5 did, and doesn't give a mechanic for determining races in a such a way like level adjustment did in 3.5

[cartmanbeck]

Pathfinder doesn't include character level increases based on things like this. That was a 3.5 rule. That's why it's completely up to the GM if he'd allow a player to do it.... they're going to be more powerful than their normal-raced peers, but not as powerful as the template's CR might suggest.

[PathlessBeth]

3.5 recommends having a half-celestial PC 4 levels behind the other PCs, and a half-dragon PC 3 levels behind the others. This may be too much or too little, depending on your campaign.

[Aegys]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[SirPeter]

But is there any official rule that allows players to use the templates, or the ability to play one is up to the DM?

[Sniggevert]

SirPeter wrote:

But is there any official rule that allows players to use the templates?

No.

Quote:

, or the ability to play one is up to the DM?

Yes.

[Samasboy1]

Aegys wrote:

Where does it say that is raises the PC's character level?

cartmanbeck wrote:

Pathfiner doesn't include character level increases for things like this

The rules for Monster PCs state CR equals level. So a template that raises CR would increase effective level.

[Kemedo]

I used to play a Half-Dragon (Silver) Minotaur that dreamed to be a Paladin and like to smoke strange herbs. Ended up as Vassal of Bahamut and Red-Dragon hunter.

But it was another game house-ruled.

[Aegys]

Samasboy1 wrote:

Aegys wrote:

Where does it say that is raises the PC's character level?

cartmanbeck wrote:

Pathfiner doesn't include character level increases for things like this

The rules for Monster PCs state CR equals level. So a template that raises CR would increase effective level.

CR is a derived stat that represents the general strength of a character.

It doesn't always represent level.
For example, most PCs have a CR of their level minus 1.
This can change depending on gear levels, and other elements (like templates).

[Vritra]

The thing with templates is that many of the abilities they grant are much more powerful than equivalent levels in classes. This means that even if you do obey the Monster PCs rules, it still should be noted that balancing needs to be focused on even more. The best avenue when you're thinking about this is giving all the PCs access to templates of equivalent CR, otherwise the templated PC (even if you hold his Class Levels back) is still going to have a lot of power compared to untemplated PCs between Smites and the Spell-like abilities.

[ShadowcatX]

Aegys wrote:

Samasboy1 wrote:

Aegys wrote:

Where does it say that is raises the PC's character level?

cartmanbeck wrote:

Pathfiner doesn't include character level increases for things like this

The rules for Monster PCs state CR equals level. So a template that raises CR would increase effective level.

CR is a derived stat that represents the general strength of a character.

It doesn't always represent level.
For example, most PCs have a CR of their level minus 1.
This can change depending on gear levels, and other elements (like templates).

Actually, PCs have a CR equal to their level, as Samas said, not their level -1. You are thinking of NPCs who can have a CR equal to their level or down to their level -2.

[Lifat]

In any case a flatrate reduction in your class levels based on a templates CR might not be the most fair system. A wizard gains FAR less (if anything) by being a minotaur than a fighter would.

The rules state that it is complete DM fiat territory and the only place where that isn't true is in pathfinder society play, where such templates would be banned for PC use.
I support that it is DM fiat territory. The 3.5 system was a decent attempt at standardizing but it still failed to take into consideration what the different classes got out of the deal.

[Ross Byers]

Lifat wrote:

In any case a flatrate reduction in your class levels based on a templates CR might not be the most fair system.

Not just for which class, but also they vary across levels. In general, racial abilities matter more at low level, because at high level there are more ways to duplicate a racial effect, or a numerical bonus gets swallowed by the scaling of numbers in the game.

A great example of this would be a racial ability to fly. At low levels, it can trivialize encounters (low level monsters are less likely to have the ability to cope with a flying archer). Starting around level 5 (when wizards get fly and various class abilities enabling flight switch on), it becomes just a way to save a couple spell slots. By high level, it just means you saved a few gp on not needing a magic item to grant flight.

[Lifat]

Ross Byers wrote:

Lifat wrote:

In any case a flatrate reduction in your class levels based on a templates CR might not be the most fair system.

Not just for which class, but also they vary across levels. In general, racial abilities matter more at low level, because at high level there are more ways to duplicate a racial effect, or a numerical bonus gets swallowed by the scaling of numbers in the game.

A great example of this would be a racial ability to fly. At low levels, it can trivialize encounters (low level monsters are less likely to have the ability to cope with a flying archer). Starting around level 5 (when wizards get fly and various class abilities enabling flight switch on), it becomes just a way to save a couple spell slots. By high level, it just means you saved a few gp on not needing a magic item to grant flight.

Oh absolutely! Wholeheartedly agree!

[Samasboy1]

Ross Byers wrote:

Lifat wrote:

In any case a flatrate reduction in your class levels based on a templates CR might not be the most fair system.

Not just for which class, but also they vary across levels. In general, racial abilities matter more at low level, because at high level there are more ways to duplicate a racial effect, or a numerical bonus gets swallowed by the scaling of numbers in the game.

A great example of this would be a racial ability to fly. At low levels, it can trivialize encounters (low level monsters are less likely to have the ability to cope with a flying archer). Starting around level 5 (when wizards get fly and various class abilities enabling flight switch on), it becomes just a way to save a couple spell slots. By high level, it just means you saved a few gp on not needing a magic item to grant flight.

And that is partly represented in the Monster PC rules, but I didn't go into it in my first post.

For every 3 levels gained, your effective level goes down 1 to a minimum of half the original.

So, the Human Half Celestial Paladin 4 is still 5th level.
CR 4+(1-1 [3 levels]); minimum level increase of .5 rounded to 1= 5

The Human Half Celestial Paladin 6 is actually 7th level, not 8th.
CR 6+(2-2 [6 levels]); minimum level increase of 1= 7

And the Human Half Celestial Paladin 11 is 13th level, rather than 14th.
CR 11+(3-3 [9 levels]) minimum level increase of 1.5 rounded to 2= 13

[PathlessBeth]

Ross Byers wrote:

Lifat wrote:

In any case a flatrate reduction in your class levels based on a templates CR might not be the most fair system.

Not just for which class, but also they vary across levels. In general, racial abilities matter more at low level, because at high level there are more ways to duplicate a racial effect, or a numerical bonus gets swallowed by the scaling of numbers in the game.

A great example of this would be a racial ability to fly. At low levels, it can trivialize encounters (low level monsters are less likely to have the ability to cope with a flying archer). Starting around level 5 (when wizards get fly and various class abilities enabling flight switch on), it becomes just a way to save a couple spell slots. By high level, it just means you saved a few gp on not needing a magic item to grant flight.

This was addressed to a certain extent in UA, with Level Adjustment Buyoff.

It certainly isn't perfect, though, as different races can have the same LA for different reasons. A race which has LA due to fast healing 5, for example, loses its advantage as soon as the cost of CLW wands becomes negligible (fast healing 5 isn't enough to make a meaningful difference during combat, but is good at low levels for out of combat healing), around levels 4-6. On the other hand, a similar-LA race with the undead type wouldn't lose the advantage gained from immunity to mind-affecting effects until the other PCs are expected to have Mind Blank, all the way at level 15ish. But both would be able to buy off their LA at the same time.
And of course, it still doesn't take into account the differences between classes and builds. Level adjustment was never really meant to be anything but a guideline. I do think it is a useful thing to have in the game, though. Not as a rule, but to give DMs a ballpark estimate of how powerful it is. Anyone familiar with 3.5 can look to it to get a sense of template power, but, as this very thread demonstrates, not everyone thinks of that.

[Tacticslion]

It had a really warped idea (at least as it played out in my games) of spell-like abilities, though. Classic Example: Hound Archon: CR 4, LA +5 (which, with racial hit dice made it a minimum lvl 11 character...). While I get the reasoning (at will teleport is theoretically more powerful in PCs hands than NPCs; this is an example they use to explain their reasoning) this and similarly vast gaps of potential and actual power were... not ultimately good calls. The teleport did not actually allow the Archon to take on substantially more powerful threats (that HD just wasn't enough) and it was functionally hindered from being a party member of equal value to the rest of the team.

I love 3.5, and I'd still be playing it if PF hasn't come around (and still enjoy incorporating some 3.X rules), but at the same time, LA rules were overly punitive and inconsistently so.

I do like having them in history, however, to at least see what others considered equivalent power, even if I've seen the disparity fail to close the gap the power provided supposedly did. (I always used the buy-off system, but standardized it at every three levels myself - by painful experience, I learned that it worked out better that way for the various groups I've been part of).