two-weapon fighting with melee touch attacks?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Paizo has been pretty clear that things like splash weapons and ranged touch attacks (rays) usually follow the normal rules for weapons: penalties for shooting into melee, able to take Weapon Focus and Weapon specialization, etc. I haven’t seen as much clarification with melee touch attacks (or I just haven’t found it). There has also been surprisingly little I’ve uncovered on these boards as well.

Spoiler:

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

emphasis mine.

1) With the bolded part, is it safe to assume you would set off a held charge if either hand touches something?

2) This doesn’t list the action type to make a single touch attack (it is an attack, not an attack action), and it is possible to touch up to 6 friends as a full round action (they aren’t trying to avoid you or attack you). If the answer to 1) is yes, does that mean you could use two-weapon fighting (2WF) to make multiple touch attacks in a round (assuming either you don’t hit the first time or you have multiple touches), with appropriate 2WF penalties?

3) Could a Magus using Spell Combat/Spellstrike deliver a spell attack through a Flame Blade (since it counts as a scimitar)?

4) Could you 2WF a Flame Blade and touch spell (like chill touch or shocking grasp)?

5) Unarmed Strikes and Natural weapons can both count as light weapons, but I can’t find anything on melee touch attacks; can you use Weapon Finesse on a melee touch attack?

6) Flame blade counts as a Scimitar and doesn’t let you use add your Strength bonus for damage; Dervish Dance lets you add your dex instead of your strength. Is it safe to assume Flame Blade + Dervish Dance will not add your Dex to damage?


This is from memory but I'll try to answer - and note that the things you're talking about follow normal rules for attacks rather than for weapons.

1. In theory, yes.

2. In short, no. Why? Look up one of the long arguments on the subject, I dunno. But the 'official' take is you can't as far as I know. The gist of it seems to be that a touch attack isn't actually a 'weapon' in any real sense - which to be fair makes sense. On the up-side, if you invest in making unarmed strikes or natural attacks, then you get some nice buffs to those attacks.

3. No, because while you may wield it 'as if it was a scimitar,' its not actually a weapon and thus can't spellstrike.

4. As above, a touch spell isn't a weapon so no.

5. Nope, not a weapon. There are exceptions for things like rays, but there isn't one for melee touch attacks.

6. Dervish Dance replaces getting nothing from strength with getting nothing from dexterity.


2- u cant hold charge on beneficient spell. Its somewhere in spell description, the spell energy simply vanish before the start of your next round. This is from memory also.


Arlow wrote:
2- u cant hold charge on beneficient spell. Its somewhere in spell description, the spell energy simply vanish before the start of your next round. This is from memory also.

The only kind if touch spell you can't hold a charge for is one that allows you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell.


Chill Touch gives you one touch attack per level. With level 12 you have 12 touch attacks and two attacks per round by BAB. So if you can use your iterative attacks you should be able to use TWF too.

Using touch spells in this way is unfamiliar to me because most touch spells only have one charge.


Touch Spells in Combat wrote:

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

FAQ wrote:

Touch Spells: If a spell allows multiple touches, are you considered to be holding the charge until all charges are expended?

Yes.

Lot of misinformation here. Yes, you can hold beneficial spells. And Yes, you can hold multiple target touch spells (in fact, you are assumed to do so until you use up the charges).

To the OP,
1) I don't think it is stated either way in the rules. Yes, I think it is fair to say you can make touch attacks with either hand, but this could also change the interaction with normal tactics. For example, a cleric is holding a mace and casts Bestow Curse. Is it immediately discharged since the cleric's other hand is touching the mace? You may decide only one hand is "charged" with the spell.

2)Making a single touch attack is a standard action. Multiple touch attacks would require a full attack. There is a special full round action to touch multiple friends in one round, and in the round you cast the spell you can make one free action touch.

4)I don't see why not, as long as you cast Flame Blade first, since casting a spell while holding the charge causes the touch spell to dissipate.

5)I would say yes, a touch attack should be a light weapon.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

1) Although not explicitly stated in the rules, I believe that when you cast your touch spell, you determine how (with what limb or attack method) you intend to deliver it. Once you determine that, it is fixed within a certain range of possibilities. One consequence of fixing the limb to be used at the time of casting is you avoid questions of discharging your spell into your own shield or opening a door with your other hand.

See this thread for the arguments, as well as the Magus FAQ.

2) Unclear. If you can TWF with unarmed strike (you can) then you should be able to TWF with your single limb held Chill Touch.

3) Spell Combat, No. The Flame Blade is not a light or one-handed melee weapon. Although it is wielded as if it was a scimitar, it is a blade-like beam of red-hot fire.

Spellstrike I'm not so sure about, as that requires only that the Magus be wielding a weapon.

4) Sure, why not ? So long as the touch spell was cast AFTER the Flame Blade spell.

5) Yes.

6) Dervish Dance allows you to use Dex in place of Str. If you're not getting the Str in the first place, you can't substitute Dex for it.


Samasboy1 wrote:
Lot of misinformation here. Yes, you can hold beneficial spells. And Yes, you can hold multiple target touch spells (in fact, you are assumed to do so until you use up the charges).

You may want to tell Paizo to update the rules then:

Core Rule Book wrote:

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

You see, there are multiple target touch spells and then there are multiple target touch spells.


See, when I read your post I understood you to be talking about something different than that line is addressing.

The difference is that of Chill Touch and Water Breathing. One specifies multiple touches that each have an individual (if identical) effect, one allows you to touch multiple people with the same effect.

You can hold Chill Touch (see FAQ), you cannot hold Water Breathing.

Sorry for the mix up.


reyyvin wrote:
1) With the bolded part, is it safe to assume you would set off a held charge if either hand touches something?

1) Yes.

Any action you take which results in making contact with an object or creature will cause the spell to discharge a charge.

If you are already making contact with something, it is generally assumed to not count as something that would cause you to discharge the charge. For example, your clothing never causes touch spells to discharge. So, if you held a mace in one hand, then cast a touch spell... the mace wouldn't cause the spell to discharge into the mace, however... if you drop/stow the mace, and then pick it back up again... that would.

I'm only aware of one exception to this general rule, and that is the Magus. They have a feature: Spellstrike which allows them to channel touch spells through weapons, as such, weapons never cause their touch spell to accidentally discharge. Other objects, however, do. There is gray area here, unfortunately... since, well... a magus could pick up a rock, and that should discharge a charge of his held spell... unless he is using that rock to bash a dude in the head, in which case it is a weapon... so, shouldn't discharge a charge after all.

reyyvin wrote:
2) This doesn’t list the action type to make a single touch attack (it is an attack, not an attack action), and it is possible to touch up to 6 friends as a full round action (they aren’t trying to avoid you or attack you). If the answer to 1) is yes, does that mean you could use two-weapon fighting (2WF) to make multiple touch attacks in a round (assuming either you don’t hit the first time or you have multiple touches), with appropriate 2WF penalties?

2)Standard action.

You could use TWF if your primary/offhand are unarmed attacks. This is because of the wording of Two Weapon Fighting rules, you need to have weapons for both your primary and off hand. Touch attacks are not considered weapons of any sort, so don't really work for TWF rules.

Luckily, touch spells can indeed be delivered through unarmed attacks. They work just like regular unarmed attack rules, with the added bonus that if your attack hits a charge of your touch spell also discharges.

A Cestus is helpful here, as it greatly improves your unarmed strikes. With one equipped, your unarmed strikes are considered armed, have a better crit rate, are normal lethal damage, do a d4 damage... and this thing also allows enhancement bonuses and such. very handy if unarmed strikes are going to be a character concept staple for ya.

reyyvin wrote:
3) Could a Magus using Spell Combat/Spellstrike deliver a spell attack through a Flame Blade (since it counts as a scimitar)?

3)Yes, but expect others to disagree.

Flame Blade specifically says that you ‘wield it as a scimitar” which by RAW mean that for just about any wielding purpose, it is a scimitar.

But… in practice, people may well disagree. They will give all sorts of weird answers, like but it isn’t a real sword. Or, No no no you cannot because it isn’t a weapon. Or something else equally as unsupported by the rules. It is a weapon like spell, and functions as a weapon. You wield it as a scimitar.

Expect it have mixed results though, talk to any GM before hand, if this is an intended goal… as this is a druid spell, so it’d take some investment to acquire on a Magus.

reyyvin wrote:
4) Could you 2WF a Flame Blade and touch spell (like chill touch or shocking grasp)?

4) Yes.

But you would need to use an unarmed strike to deliver the touch spell. (As TWF requires weapons, which a regular melee touch attack is not)

A good tactic, again, is to wear a cestus. Then you can attack with the Flame Blade as your primary weapon and attack with an unarmed strike as your offhand weapon.

reyyvin wrote:
5) Unarmed Strikes and Natural weapons can both count as light weapons, but I can’t find anything on melee touch attacks; can you use Weapon Finesse on a melee touch attack?

5)No.

Not unless you houserule it. It is a fairly common houserule… or possibly just an oversight. Check with your GM.

reyyvin wrote:
6) Flame blade counts as a Scimitar and doesn’t let you use add your Strength bonus for damage; Dervish Dance lets you add your dex instead of your strength. Is it safe to assume Flame Blade + Dervish Dance will not add your Dex to damage?

6) Looks like a no-go.

Since Dervish Dance replaces Str with Dex, if you don’t add Str, you cannot sub it out for Dex. You would however still get to use your Dex for the attack roll, should you desire.

Fun Fact: Since we have discussed TWFing with unarmed attacks…
Dervish Dance allows you to sub Dex instead of Str on attack and damage rolls “When wielding a Scimitar in one hand”.
This means that not only does this affect your scimitar attacks (assuming a regular scimitar here), but it also allows you to do the same with any unarmed attacks you make too. The feat simply allows you to sub dex instead of str while wielding the scimitar and not carrying a weapon in the other, the effect is not at all limited to just the rolls made with said scimitar.


Several people have stated that #2 is a no because your spell is not a weapon.

PRD wrote:


Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

and

PRD wrote:


“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).

For all intents and purposes, while holding a charge, you have a 'weapon' in your hands.


bbangerter wrote:

Several people have stated that #2 is a no because your spell is not a weapon.

PRD wrote:


Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

and

PRD wrote:


“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).

For all intents and purposes, while holding a charge, you have a 'weapon' in your hands.

Those are two different things.

An "unarmed attack" is a specific kind of attack. It is essentially the basic weapon that just about any creature has at all times.

An "Armed" unarmed attack is just an unarmed attack which is a bit better than the default one, it function just like the default one, except that it is considered armed, and doesn't provoke when used.

Nothing about that interacts with the Melee Touch Attack granted by the touch spell with regards to being considered weapon-like. There is that similar 'armed' reference, but that only tells you that the melee touch attack doesn't provoke. That is all that text is discussing, the consequences of an attack being considered 'armed', despite not actually holding some standard manufactured weapon of some kind.

However, a touch spell can be delivered with an unarmed attack instead of the melee touch attack. Only then can you call the attack a weapon attack, and only then can it interact with TWF rules.

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