Sohei is a better Switch-hitter...
On the other hand, why to switch hit when you can use the same tactic for enemies standing 5 ft from you as easy as for those standing 30 ft.
Sohei is a better Switch-hitter...On the other hand, why to switch hit when you can use the same tactic for enemies standing 5 ft from you as easy as for those standing 30 ft.
You ran out of arrows =)
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Sohei is a better Switch-hitter...On the other hand, why to switch hit when you can use the same tactic for enemies standing 5 ft from you as easy as for those standing 30 ft.
Something worth remembering, at higher levels the Zen Archer is going to be perfectly happy in melee with his bow and just shooting people next to him 5 times without any risk or AoOs, switch hitting isn't even needed for him.
Something worth remembering, at higher levels the Zen Archer is going to be perfectly happy in melee with his bow and just shooting people next to him 5 times without any risk or AoOs, switch hitting isn't even needed for him.Sohei is a better Switch-hitter...On the other hand, why to switch hit when you can use the same tactic for enemies standing 5 ft from you as easy as for those standing 30 ft.
No need for higher levels, I think he gets the ability at level 3.
Something worth remembering, at higher levels the Zen Archer is going to be perfectly happy in melee with his bow and just shooting people next to him 5 times without any risk or AoOs, switch hitting isn't even needed for him.Sohei is a better Switch-hitter...On the other hand, why to switch hit when you can use the same tactic for enemies standing 5 ft from you as easy as for those standing 30 ft.
That...is exactly what I said ;)
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No need for higher levels, I think he gets the ability at level 3.
Very true! I was thinking of Reflexive Shot at level 9 which makes him exactly the same in melee as a weapon wielder, allowing him AoOs, but he'll be in melee happily from level 3 as you point out, switch hitting is for second raters ;)
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Im in the camp that a ZenArcher is a much better Archer. Im currently playing one right Skull and Shackles.
My comment about Switch-hitter is more for concept. Not everyone wants to always shoot arrows. Concept and Role-play are very important too.
EDIT: Come on, that comment about running out of arrows was funny. I get no love.
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Sohei may catch up at level 15, but ZA pulls ahead again by being able to pump stunning fist through his bow. O.o
Though he actually has to take Stunning Fist to be able to do so since he trades it away as part of the archetype. Ki focus is also only a +1 enhancement bonus, so I don't think the Zen Archer getting it is really a point up on the Sohei who can save substantially more money on weapon enchants with his class abilities than the ZA can on his.
Again though, they're both really good, it largely comes down to circumstance and things that are harder to quantify, like terrain, enemy tactics, enemy composition, etc. I'd be happy with either in my group.
Sohei may catch up at level 15, but ZA pulls ahead again by being able to pump stunning fist through his bow. O.oThough he actually has to take Stunning Fist to be able to do so since he trades it away as part of the archetype.
Taking into account the huge amount of bonus feat and virtual bonus feats, that is not a problem at level 15. Specially when taking into consideration how powerful that ability actually is.
He Probably meant that he could use his Unarmed damage for arrows, that is nothing to sneeze at pass level 12.
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Taking into account the huge amount of bonus feat and virtual bonus feats, that is not a problem at level 15. Specially when taking into consideration how powerful that ability actually is.
The ability to apply a +1 weapon enhancement as long as you keep at least one point from your pool in reserve? Not very powerful at all, especially for an archetype capstone.
He Probably meant that he could use his Unarmed damage for arrows, that is nothing to sneeze at pass level 12.
It's solid, but you're talking about an extra 6.5 damage per hit on average. The Sohei is getting an extra 3-7 damage per hit plus two more attacks than the ZA can make (that also means more chances to deal crit damage). Factor in WBL and things the Sohei can use that the ZA can't like Gloves of Dueling, and you've got 5-9 additional damage to hit and a higher to-hit overall.
The ability to apply a +1 weapon enhancement as long as you keep at least one point from your pool in reserve? Not very powerful at all, especially for an archetype capstone.
Considering no amount of money or other class can get this with a bow because Ki Focus can only be put on melee weapons.
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The ability to apply a +1 weapon enhancement as long as you keep at least one point from your pool in reserve? Not very powerful at all, especially for an archetype capstone.Considering no amount of money or other class can get this with a bow because Ki Focus can only be put on melee weapons.
Ah, fair enough, I'd overlooked that. So pretty good actually.
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Going to put up some actual numbers, anyone mind going through the feats I have down for a fighter and add more/critique it? I went fast, so don't be too... picky about it :P
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
2 Rapid Shot
3 Weapon Focus
4 Combat Reflexes
5 Weapon Specialization
6 Many Shot
7 Point Blank Master
8 Clustered Shots
9 Greater Weapon Focus
10 Snap Shot
11 Improved Precise Shot
12 Improved Snap Shot
13 Greater Weapon Specialization
14 Hammer the Gap
15 Deadly Aim
16 ...
17 ...
18 ...
19 ...
20 ...
20 ...
Anyone wishing to do a write up of the sohei would be great for comparison, I'm going to work on the Zen Archer next.
I'm going to work on the Zen Archer next.
No need too, he already exist.
EDIT: How do you put Deadly Aim at level 15? You are not a very good archer.
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He Probably meant that he could use his Unarmed damage for arrows, that is nothing to sneeze at pass level 12.It's solid, but you're talking about an extra 6.5 damage per hit on average. The Sohei is getting an extra 3-7 damage per hit plus two more attacks than the ZA can make (that also means more chances to deal crit damage). Factor in WBL and things the Sohei can use that the ZA can't like Gloves of Dueling, and you've got 5-9 additional damage to hit and a higher to-hit overall.
Bear in mind at level 10+ a Zen Archer with Improved Critical can be using Perfect Strike to triple roll for an attack, that gives a significantly higher chance of both critting AND confirming as your dice pool is much larger than if you're limited to the usual one roll for an attack and is definitely going to pump his DPR higher.
A note on the stunning fist issue. Its important to keep in mind that stunning fist uses a wisdom based DC. So i'd probably give that to zen archer.
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Bear in mind at level 10+ a Zen Archer with Improved Critical can be using Perfect Strike to triple roll for an attack, that gives a significantly higher chance of both critting AND confirming as your dice pool is much larger than if you're limited to the usual one roll for an attack and is definitely going to pump his DPR higher.
Improved Critical isn't a Zen Archer feat, it's equally available to any character. The larger dice pool is a benefit, but since you're statistically just as likely to roll a 1 as a 20... You do still have to confirm off of one of those three rolls.
The ZA basically gets up to 20 additional rolls each day via Perfect Strike, and the ability to roll his confirmation and attack roll simultaneously and choose which is which. The ability to essentially roll your confirmation roll and attack roll simultaneously and choose which is which is pretty nice, but statistically either die has the same chance of critting, so it's that 3rd die that really makes the difference. The Sohei gets two additional attacks always, though one of those can never crit but is made at your highest attack bonus, which is also likely higher than the ZA. So Manyshot is like 1/2 a crit each time it applies since a bow has a x3 crit. That means it takes roughly 11.5 full attacks for the Sohei's larger number of attacks to negate the ZA's advantage, assuming favorable dice for the ZA.
Looked at another way, the Zen Archer's dice pool for his first twenty attacks is 60. Statistically that's 6 chances to crit to the Sohei's 2. Manyshot only needs to hit 8 times to negate that advantage. If the Zen Archer has Improved Crit and the Sohei does not have it or an equivalent for some reason (unlikely), than it's 6 to 1 and the Sohei needs to add 2 more rounds before he catches up, just with Manyshot alone. We're not even looking at the additional attack from Rapid Shot in this comparison.
If you run 2 combat encounters in the day, the ZA probably has the edge.
At 3 encounters it swings towards the Sohei and by 4 combat encounters the Sohei is solidly in the lead, at least as far as flat DPR potential goes.
If you run 2 combat encounters in the day, the ZA probably has the edge. At 3 encounters it...
I would have to see some hard numbers to back up statements. This is all theory crafting.
Personally I think after level 15, I think it will be very competitive dpr for both. I really think the Zen Archer shines before this. He doesn't have to wait so long for his Archer build to develop. If you look at the link I provided, The guy who created "One" does 7 challenges with one period to rest. Granted he takes some liberties, but I think he illustrates the point. I dont think you would have a Zen Archer running low on resources after 2 combats. Especially with the DPR at level 20. This game becomes like rocket tag, battles are won and lost in the first 2 rounds of combat.
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If a ten is required to hit, and an 19 required to threaten, then your odds of getting a critical hit with a normal character is 5% (10% to threaten, half of that to confirm).
For a Zen Archer rolling 2 dice, it's a 9.5% chance (19% to threaten, half to confirm). For a Zen Archer rolling 3 dice, it's a 20.325% chance(27.1% to threaten, then 50% of 50% to not confirm, aka 75% chance to confirm).
Statistics class for the win!
If a ten is required to hit, and an 19 required to threaten, then your odds of getting a critical hit with a normal character is 5% (10% to threaten, half of that to confirm).
For a Zen Archer rolling 2 dice, it's a 9.5% chance (19% to threaten, half to confirm). For a Zen Archer rolling 3 dice, it's a 20.325% chance(27.1% to threaten, then 50% of 50% to not confirm, aka 75% chance to confirm).
Statistics class for the win!
I had heard that Perfect Shot really does help with Crits. Can you post your math so I can learn how to calculate it. I want to run some DPR numbers.
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If a ten is required to hit, and an 19 required to threaten, then your odds of getting a critical hit with a normal character is 5% (10% to threaten, half of that to confirm).
For a Zen Archer rolling 2 dice, it's a 9.5% chance (19% to threaten, half to confirm). For a Zen Archer rolling 3 dice, it's a 20.325% chance(27.1% to threaten, then 50% of 50% to not confirm, aka 75% chance to confirm).
Statistics class for the win!
Which covers the ZA, but doesn't account for how that compares to the Sohei's larger number of attacks, the scaling additional damage of Manyshot, or the fact that the Sohei has a higher to-hit in the first place.
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Umm... sure? It's been awhile, so I do it all intuitively though, so I might be a tad bit off.
General principle is:
(percent chance to threaten with all dice) * (percent chance to confirm with all dice) = (percent chance to critically hit)
Percent chance to threaten with all dice = 1-(percent chance to NOT threaten with one die)^(number of dice)
Percent chance to confirm with all dice = 1-(percent chance to NOT confirm with one die)^(number of dice - 1) <----- You used 1 die to threaten
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Which covers the ZA, but doesn't account for how that compares to the Sohei's larger number of attacks, the scaling additional damage of Manyshot, or the fact that the Sohei has a higher to-hit in the first place.If a ten is required to hit, and an 19 required to threaten, then your odds of getting a critical hit with a normal character is 5% (10% to threaten, half of that to confirm).
For a Zen Archer rolling 2 dice, it's a 9.5% chance (19% to threaten, half to confirm). For a Zen Archer rolling 3 dice, it's a 20.325% chance(27.1% to threaten, then 50% of 50% to not confirm, aka 75% chance to confirm).
Statistics class for the win!
I wasn't arguing for, or against, any of them. I was just doing the cold hard math behind Perfect Strike.
Lets compare two level eleven's (factoring in weapon traning and weapon focus): Both using 1 ki point to attack 1 more time.
Zen at level 11: 6 attacks at 10/10/10/5/5/0 (using perfect strike)
Sohei at level 11: 7 attack rolls at 9/9/9/9/4/4/-1 (The first of which gains a second arrow. Also assuming the Sohei got Weapon Focus as a feat and Improved Critical)
Assuming the first attack lands on a 5 for the ZA, and a 6 for the Sohei
Zen chances for at least one critical hit: ~43%
Sohei chances for at least one critical hit: ~33%
EDIT: All of this is without gear, and only a couple skills involved. Therefore, this should not be taken literally, we need full blown generated characters (with their gear) to compare actual damage outputs at various levels.
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Which covers the ZA, but doesn't account for how that compares to the Sohei's larger number of attacks, the scaling additional damage of Manyshot, or the fact that the Sohei has a higher to-hit in the first place.If a ten is required to hit, and an 19 required to threaten, then your odds of getting a critical hit with a normal character is 5% (10% to threaten, half of that to confirm).
For a Zen Archer rolling 2 dice, it's a 9.5% chance (19% to threaten, half to confirm). For a Zen Archer rolling 3 dice, it's a 20.325% chance(27.1% to threaten, then 50% of 50% to not confirm, aka 75% chance to confirm).
Statistics class for the win!
Sohei doesn't have higher to hit until after he get weapon training and spends gold on the gloves :P
Im putting together the numbers on both right now. Might not get it posted till tomorrow. but I will get it up here.
Also, what about the scenario James proposed - is it worth it to switch to fighter after level 4 or 6 of Zen?
Using the rules of the DPR Olymics
STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 12 (+1)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
CHA: 8 (-1)
Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +12 Will: +15
AC: 21 - Touch 18, Flatfooted 14 (+10 base, +2 Armor, +6 WIS bonus, +1 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: C.Longbow +17, 1d8+7 dmg (19-20/x3)
Flurry&DA +15/+15/+10/+10, 1d8+13 dmg (19-20/x3)
With Ki/haste +16/+16/+16/+11/+11, 1d8+13 dmg (19-20/x3)
Class Abilities:
Flurry of Blows
Perfect Stike (replace Stunning Fist)
Way of the Bow (Replaces Evasion)
Fast Movement
Zen Archery (replaces Maneuver Training)
Ki Pool (11 points)
Barkskin (replace Slow Fall)
High Jump or Acrobatic Step
Ki Arrows (replaces Purity of Body)
Wholeness of Body
Reflexive Shot (replaces Improved Evasion)
BAB: +7 CMB: +12 CMD: 25
Feats:
1st: Toughness
Human: Improved Initiative
Monk 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1st: Perfect Strike (bow, special)
Monk 1st: Precise Shot
Monk 2nd: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Monk 2nd: Point Blank Shot
Monk 3rd: Point Blank Master
3rd: Deadly Aim
5th: Defensive Combat Training
Monk 6th: Specialization (longbow)
Monk 6th: Improved Precise Shot
7th: Lighting Reflexes
9th: Clustered Shots
Monk 10th: Improved Critical (longbow)
Skills (5 per level):
Max Perception
Max Acrobatics
Max Sense Motive
Max Stealth
Sprinkle last ranks out
Gear:
+3 Composite Longbow (+2str)
Headband of +4 WIS
Boots of Speed (in place of duelist gloves)
Cloak of Resistance +2
Bracers of AC +2 (or Shirt +2 if GM allows you to enchant clothes)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
1400 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
His attack routine is:
Flurry, Hasted, Deadly Aim while burning Ki point = +16/+16/+16/+11/+11, 1d8+13 dmg (19-20/x3)
His average damage per round is 67.37.
STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 20 (+5) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +2 belt)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +14 Will: +10 (+2 vs enchantments)
AC: 22 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 17 (+10 base +5 armor bonus, +5 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: C.Longbow +19, 1d8+8 dmg (19-20/x3)
Flurry,DA,RS +15(x2)/+15/+15/+10/+10, 1d8+14 dmg (19-20/x3)
With Ki +15(x2)/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10, 1d8+14 dmg (19-20/x3)
Class Abilities:
Flurry of Blows
Devoted Guardian (replaces Stunning Fist)
Evasion
Monastic Mount (replaces Fast movement & Increase unarm damage)
Maneuver Training
Still Mind
Ki Pool (6 points)
Ki Weapon (replaces slow fall and abundant step)
High Jump or Barkskin
Weapon Training (replaces Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and moon)
Wholeness of Body
Improved Evasion
BAB: +7 CMB: +12 CMD: 28
Feats:
1st: Point Blank Shot
Human: Precise Shot
Monk 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 2nd: Mounted Combat
3rd: Deadly Aim
5th: Rapid Shot
Monk 6th: Mounted Archery
7th: Weapon Focus
9th: Many Shot
Monk 10th: Improved Critical (longbow)
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
+3 Composite Longbow (+2str)
Duelist Gloves
Belt of +2 DEX
Cloak of Resistance +2
Mirthril Chainshirt +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
8150 GP saving up to 12k for the belt upgrade
His attack routine is:
Flurry with Deadly Aim, Manyshot, burning Ki point = +15(x2)/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10, 1d8+14 dmg (19-20/x3)
His average damage per round is 75.30.
Vs cover because of no I.P.S. dpr is 46.80.
If we splurge and give him the +4 belt the dps is 82.42.
Vs Cover damage per round is 53.93.
ALSO, Sohei does not have Cluster shots. DR at this point in his career is going to hurt. Depending on if your GM runs cover correctly (mine does), Cover from allies is a big thing. I will give the Sohei some love. With a +10 Initiative over the Zen Archer's +5, he should get to get a volley off before the two sides engage. Also, No Point Blank Mastery. This means with all his feats taken and someone closes on him, he has to go back to unarmed combat and be near useless. While the Zen Archer has been laughing about this since level 3.
This was an interesting and I learned alot. First is that before level 9 and 10 the Zen Archer just wins hard. This is really a sweet spot for the Sohei cause he finally gets Manyshot at level 9 and the gold to get his gloves. The Zen Archer is going to get a boost at 12 when he can start using his unarmed damage for his arrows. At 15 the Sohei will get Improved Precise shot. This is when he will become scary.
Problem with the Sohei is he is not a better switch hitter, all his feats are spoken for, and he gives up a lot of Defensives for this. The big ones come as Diamond Body (hello SR, ZenArcher aint scard of no fireballs)and Abundant step. If someone closes on him, he is screwed. He doesn't have his movement speed boost, he does have a mount if you have the setting that he can utilize it. The Zen Archer doesn't need the mount because he can just stand there and shoot.
Later on the ZenArcher can ignore concealment and shoot around total cover. He also only needs a headband of wisdom so you have the option to go with a belt of CON or STR. Con will give you better fort saves and more Hp while the STR will help damage. Grab a ring of Evasion and combined with Lightning Reflexes and toughness he is FAR more durable than the Sohei. To top this off, do you really want to wait until level 9 to even catch the ZenArcher in dpr much less pass him at 15 all the while giving up on most of what makes the monk survivable?
After this little exercise Im convinced that the ZenArcher is a better character to play if you are starting a level 1. By the Sohei specializing this much in Archery he loses alot of what his class has to offer. I think as a mounted oriented character he should look into using a two handed weapon and Flurrying with it. YES, Sohei can Flurry with a 2 handed weapon while wearing armor. I believe he can get spirited charge at level 2, this is just crazy. As his 2nd Weapon training group he can take bows and be very competent in range combat.
TLDR: The Sohei can surpass the ZenArcher in DPR late in his Career, but he loses out on survivability and lots and lots of utility.
I must say that I found this thread and immediately became entranced with it. Only to have found it leaving me hanging, due to the answers in DPR etc... not figured out yet. Argh.
Here is me wishing you all luck and having ample time to do this for the community. Thank you.
P.S. Please hurry lol.
As promised!
Also, I forgot to talk about saves and armor. The Sohei has the Zen Archer by 1 on Armor. I got Barkskin (Quinggong)on both but the Sohei doesnt have the Ki to really keep it up. Both have excellent saves. The ZenArcher can have more Hp with toughness being he has open feats. This ends up being a wash for the most part. Allowing the Sohei to wear armor doesn't help as much as most people think.
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The big ones come as Diamond Body (hello SR, ZenArcher aint scard of no fireballs)
I disagree with this hard. SR is a crappy feature of the monk that's far more likely to hurt than to help. Spell Resistance, especially one with scaling like the Monk's, is likely to stop ally buffs and very unlikely to stop enemy spells. The Sohei's Evasion/Improved Evasion is going to count for way more when it comes to evading AoE's.
With a +10 Initiative over the Zen Archer's +5, he should get to get a volley off before the two sides engage. Also, No Point Blank Mastery. This means with all his feats taken and someone closes on him, he has to go back to unarmed combat and be near useless.
Again, mounted combat comes into play. A Sohei doesn't need to spend a single feat to be good at it (remember, mounted archery is only necessary to negate penalties when you're double-moving or running), and he gets to ride around on his kung-fu mustang, which moves on his initiative. If mounted combat is a viable factor than he can virtually always have superior positioning while full attacking and maintaining a safe distance.
The Sohei can surpass the ZenArcher in DPR late in his Career, but he loses out on survivability and lots and lots of utility
This conclusion doesn't stack to your own layout. The Sohei has better to-hit during the first two levels of play, and higher DPR at the level given. Your implied assertion that SR is going to be better than Evasion/Improved Evasion is blatantly wrong. Your assessment that the Sohei is not as good a switch hitter, is wrong. Even without changing the feats around to drop unnecessary ones and replace them with better (kung-fu mount wants Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attack, not Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery), the fact that the Sohei has a survivable mount and martial weapon proficiencies, in and of itself, makes the Sohei a better switch hitter than the Zen Archer.
(To be clear, I appreciate you doing the layout and the fact that I disagree with some of your conclusions doesn't mean I don't respect or appreciate the time you're putting into this.)
I disagree with this hard. SR is a crappy feature of the monk that's far more likely to hurt than to help. Spell Resistance, especially one with scaling like the Monk's, is likely to stop ally buffs and very unlikely to stop enemy spells. The Sohei's Evasion/Improved Evasion is going to count for way more when it comes to evading AoE's.
The Zen Archer will get a ring of Evasion (he doesnt wear armor) and with his great saves he will be ok. Fireballs dont kill every character without good reflex saves. Fighters and Barbarian mostly go with hp as a defense. With Toughness he will have the hp of a d10 class.
Again, mounted combat comes into play. A Sohei doesn't need to spend a single feat to be good at it (remember, mounted archery is only necessary to negate penalties when you're double-moving or running), and he gets to ride around on his kung-fu mustang, which moves on his initiative. If mounted combat is a viable factor than he can virtually always have superior positioning while full attacking and maintaining a safe distance.
I agree, if mounts are viable (PFS and most games I play they are not) then the Sohei should never have an issue with being closed on. This is a huge boon.
The Sohei can surpass the ZenArcher in DPR late in his Career, but he loses out on survivability and lots and lots of utilityThis conclusion doesn't stack to your own layout. The Sohei has better to-hit during the first two levels of play, and higher DPR at the level given.
He does have a Higher DPR in perfect conditions, I did put both the DPR's up there for this reason. I know from personal experiance (PFS and our home games) Its hard to get shots off without the target having cover from other combatants. This is why I would only look at playing a Archer that has access to I.P.S. at level 6. If this is not a big deal in your games then it swings the other way. I did say this was a sweat spot for the Sohei cause of Manyshot and Duelist Gloves. You also are not taking into account DR.
As for level 1. The dpr numbers are:
ZenArcher: 3.15 dpr
Sohei: 2.1 dpr
This assumes AC 12 with a short bow (due to being poor at level 1). While the Sohei has better +hit at level 1 the ZenArcher can Flurry at level 1.
(To be clear, I appreciate you doing the layout and the fact that I disagree with some of your conclusions doesn't mean I don't respect or appreciate the time you're putting into this.)
Thank you. I learned alot. I didnt think the Sohei would do so well before I.P.S at level 15. Still, I didnt do the numbers at level 15 or 20. But after this lil excerise; at 15 the Sohei will have I.P.S and cluster shots so I can see his raw dps out stripping most classes in perfect situations. All of the above are my opinions due to my experiences in the games I play in. It will be difference for different people.
Thanks!
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While I do understand the power of the Sohei's mount, I'm questioning how wise it is to rely on a beast with 30-40 HP (unless your spending thousands on a different mount). The mount itself isn't going to have the best saves, and while you might avoid the fireball entirely it probably won't (unless you have indomitable mount, yet another feat). The same thing goes for straight up attacking it, mounted combat can only help with one attack, and the AC bonus isn't going to be adding too much.
So, compared to someone with an actual animal companion, your either going to be spending large sums of cash (an awakened mastodon would have the HD you need for later games) or your riding around on top of a liability.
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While I do understand the power of the Sohei's mount, I'm questioning how wise it is to rely on a beast with 30-40 HP (unless your spending thousands on a different mount). The mount itself isn't going to have the best saves, and while you might avoid the fireball entirely it probably won't (unless you have indomitable mount, yet another feat). The same thing goes for straight up attacking it, mounted combat can only help with one attack, and the AC bonus isn't going to be adding too much.
So, compared to someone with an actual animal companion, your either going to be spending large sums of cash (an awakened mastodon would have the HD you need for later games) or your riding around on top of a liability.
This applies to any creature the Sohei mounts, so a Sohei with 2k - 3.5k and some free time could apply those benefits to a pegasus or griffon just as easily as a heavy war horse. That means that by 9th level any mount the Sohei rides is taking 1/2 damage from even failed Reflex saves, gaining a +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, and getting at least a +2 to AC (probably more like 3-4), along with various other benefits. It's not quite as good as a true animal companion, but in many ways it's actually more versatile.
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While I do understand the power of the Sohei's mount, I'm questioning how wise it is to rely on a beast with 30-40
This applies to any creature the Sohei mounts, so a Sohei with 2k and some free time could apply those benefits to a pegasus just as easily as a heavy war horse. That means that by 9th level any mount the Sohei rides is taking 1/2 damage from even failed Reflex saves, gaining a +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, and getting at least a +2 to AC (probably more like 3-4), along with various other benefits. It's not quite as good as a true animal companion, but in many ways it's actually more versatile.
This makes me want to make a Gnome Sohei, and jump on the back of a Barbarian as a "Mount". WHO RUN BARTERTOWN?
While I do understand the power of the Sohei's mount, I'm questioning how wise it is to rely on a beast with 30-40 HP (unless your spending thousands on a different mount). The mount itself isn't going to have the best saves, and while you might avoid the fireball entirely it probably won't (unless you have indomitable mount, yet another feat). The same thing goes for straight up attacking it, mounted combat can only help with one attack, and the AC bonus isn't going to be adding too much.
So, compared to someone with an actual animal companion, your either going to be spending large sums of cash (an awakened mastodon would have the HD you need for later games) or your riding around on top of a liability.
This applies to any creature the Sohei mounts, so a Sohei with 2k - 3.5k and some free time could apply those benefits to a pegasus or griffon just as easily as a heavy war horse. That means that by 9th level any mount the Sohei rides is taking 1/2 damage from even failed Reflex saves, gaining a +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, and getting at least a +2 to AC (probably more like 3-4), along with various other benefits. It's not quite as good as a true animal companion, but in many ways it's actually more versatile.
Why would it get AC bonus - you probably have barding on it, and it may be encumbered? Since no one is going to welcome you to town with your Griffon in tow, in the end, it's a difference of 2-3 fireballs that a horse survives. If you're buffing its HP with your ki, then you're also being a crappier combatant.
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While I do understand the power of the Sohei's mount, I'm questioning how wise it is to rely on a beast with 30-40 HP (unless your spending thousands on a different mount). The mount itself isn't going to have the best saves, and while you might avoid the fireball entirely it probably won't (unless you have indomitable mount, yet another feat). The same thing goes for straight up attacking it, mounted combat can only help with one attack, and the AC bonus isn't going to be adding too much.
So, compared to someone with an actual animal companion, your either going to be spending large sums of cash (an awakened mastodon would have the HD you need for later games) or your riding around on top of a liability.
This applies to any creature the Sohei mounts, so a Sohei with 2k - 3.5k and some free time could apply those benefits to a pegasus or griffon just as easily as a heavy war horse. That means that by 9th level any mount the Sohei rides is taking 1/2 damage from even failed Reflex saves, gaining a +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, and getting at least a +2 to AC (probably more like 3-4), along with various other benefits. It's not quite as good as a true animal companion, but in many ways it's actually more versatile.
For easy reference:
Griffen (8,000):hp 42 (5d10+15)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +4
Hippogriff (5,000):
hp 22 (3d10+6)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2
Riding Gecko (300-400):
hp 11 (2d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2
Axe Beak (1,500):
hp 22 (3d8+9)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +1
Dire Bat (300-450):
hp 22 (4d8+4)
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +3
The highest reflex save is a +6, an average NPC wizard throwing fireballs would have at about 14 intelligence, meaning your mount fails it's saves on a 9 or lower.
Without gear on both sides of the fence, your mount is going to be hit by about half of the reflex saves thrown at it. One fireball from a 8th level wizard deals about 28 damage on average, outright killing some mounts even with the bonus temp HP. Two of those and all but the griffin is dead. Thats with AOE attacks not even intended to hit the mount, but rather you.
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Why would it get AC bonus - you probably have barding on it, and it may be encumbered? Since no one is going to welcome you to town with your Griffon in tow, in the end, it's a difference of 2-3 fireballs that a horse survives. If you're buffing its HP with your ki, then you're also being a crappier combatant.
It's almost as though you answer your own questions in there, I'm not even sure where to begin...
If it's a flying mount, it has an AC bonus specifically because I don't want to run into issues with encumbrance and would instead prefer to use the class ability that lets it maximize its capabilities and leverage its full DEX. Barding is a waste of money.
" no one is going to welcome you to town with your Griffon in tow" is a dumb argument. If you're playing in Golarion, it's a very cosmopolitan setting full of heroes and rare beasts. Most of the major cities will be actively selling exotic creatures like griffins. I can't imagine any town in any normal setting has issues with the pegasus. It's just a big stretch to say something like that, and it's at best only true in whatever homebrew you, personally, are playing. It's also indicative of this ridiculous attitude I see all the time from people who are actively trying to take away people's class features for no reason other than that they don't understand them. I have and will actively report PFS GM's who try to pull the "your mount can't follow you because it doesn't make sense to me despite it perfectly within the rules and logical for the setting". If someone wants to pull that "the city won't like it" bull, they better be ready to run all of the necromancers, half-orc barbarians, summoners, and sorcerers out too. My griffin might eat someone's horse, but sorcerer's should be getting stoned in the streets while governments organize anti-mutant... excuse me, anti-sorcerer hate rallies and funding private militias to run them out of town. It's ridiculous the lengths people will try to go to bend the "logic" of a setting to meet their own particular prejudice.
"in the end, it's a difference of 2-3 fireballs that a horse survives"
Considering that most combat encounters last 3 rounds, that means my cheap and easily replaceable horse lasted long enough for me to take full advantage of my superior DPR and roxxorz teh boxxorz all over the enemy. In encounters where the bad guys don't have spells, my high range and superior mobility mean that me and the mount probably both get off without a scratch.
"If you're buffing its HP with your ki, then you're also being a crappier combatant"
I don't need to. It's a freaking kung-fu mount with Improved Evasion. It's going to be fine.
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Griffen (8,000):
hp 42 (5d10+15)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +4Hippogriff (5,000):
hp 22 (3d10+6)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2Riding Gecko (300-400):
hp 11 (2d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2Axe Beak (1,500):
hp 22 (3d8+9)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +1Dire Bat (300-450):
hp 22 (4d8+4)
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +3The highest reflex save is a +6, an average NPC wizard throwing fireballs would have at about 14 intelligence, meaning your mount fails it's saves on a 9 or lower.
Of those the only ones I'd expect a Sohei of that high a level to be riding is the griffon. You also go up one more level and suddenly that damage is halved for all of them, allowing them to survive at least one or two big AoEs.
As your levels progress a smart Sohei will either invest in a couple Figurines of Wondrous Power, or invest in UMD and carry a wand of Phantom Steed to stay in the game in the event that things go poorly.
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If you are in a mythic campaign. at mid to high levels, the Sohei will pull ahead thanks to the love mythic range feats get. Mythic Rapid shot give you 1 more extra attack or no -2 penalties on your attacks. Mythic Many shot gives you an additional 2 arrow attack with your 2nd attack.
Thats 2 more arrows into the air without the need for ki or other limited resources.
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If you are in a mythic campaign. at mid to high levels, the Sohei will pull ahead thanks to the love mythic range feats get. Mythic Rapid shot give you 1 more extra attack or no -2 penalties on your attacks. Mythic Many shot gives you an additional 2 arrow attack with your 2nd attack.
Thats 2 more arrows into the air without the need for ki or other limited resources.
I wasn't going to go there specifically because Mythic is so much better for characters using traditional options from the CRB and APG (like, basic class features and feats like Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, etc.).
In a Mythic Campaign there's really not even much of a debate because the Mythic materials just don't account for and support as much of the Zen Archer's uniqueness. That's true of most of the archetypes that do something in a very unusual way, like stat swaps (WIS for DEX), or abilities that are entirely unique in their mechanics.
I used zen archer for a wisdom based arcane archer once. Zen Archer and empyreal sorcerer. Was a good time in theory.