In a solo mythic game I am running, I have drow and duergar raiding parties probing magnimar in search of conquest. The Hell knights are holding them back under the city. Abadar has sent my character visions of a mailed fist gripping a key smashing a symbolic spider and then smashing a grey symbolic hammer. This means Abadar wants him to break the duergar and drow so that they no longer threaten civilization. So, he is marching north to find the enemies cities...alone. my question is why would drow and duergar be interested in magnimar? Do you the forum goers suggest guerilla war, diplomacy, assassination or perhaps using an artifact to bomb a drow city? In a bit over my head here. Suggestions welcome.
find a way to let see that one of the 2 factions has betrayed the other and let them fight
ahh and pray Banjo they don't realize your plan :D
I did consider having him try to turn the duergar against the drow :) hmm think we may be on to something!
what is the feeling/bargain between Drows and Duegars? Usually duergars are slaves of drows... so the PC could start a rebellion XD!
Mm. I figured uneasy alliance since duergar are lawful evil and drow are chaotic. Makes sense the duergar would mistrust their drow "allies". Any ideas for a motivation for these forces to be trying to conquer a surface city? Perhaps as a "beachhead" to launch further attacks? But why?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I try to help, but i don't know this city because i'm gonna play soon the AP ROTR and i don't want to read spoilers XD:
-maybe the city have a good position (a tactical one)
-maybe they're looking for an artifact that is on Magnimar possession
-maybe this arctifact (intelligent item) his calling them, to get an appropriate owner, an evil one
It could be a relationship of convenience, similar to germany and russian in wwII, where the goal is just conquering. Most of the under dwelling races have a distaste and sometimes a complete hatred of their surface cousins. And the betrayal could be similar to wwII as well, with the duergar feeling now would be a good time to fight a war on 2 fronts.
Great ideas all. I like the " simple conquest" goal/ motivation. I also think I will have Abadar drop "hints".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hm... Duergar and Drow, eh? It's happened before.
The very simple (and obvious) reason is just plain conquest at encouragement by a demon lord and/or devil lord. Plan: imprison and enslave as many people as possible.
Barbatos is known as "Demon Friend" (and hinted to be aberrant originally) while Mazmezz (replacement for the iconic drow) and/or Shivaska (someone I could see working with lawful creatures with chains, imprisonment, clocks, and aberrations) - the two demon lords work well together portfolio-wise with bindings and imprisonment being part of their collective thing, and Shivaska already has influence among the duergar, meaning that it could be a natural bridge between the two.
Also ettercaps.
What is Barbatos' angle? Creating inroads for a second Cheliax.
But... what if it doesn't work - what if the invasion collapses? What if he doesn't get "what he's after"? What does he get?
- forcibly increase the local tiefling population (generating minor diabolical and demonic influence); this can be done by increasing the local ambient diabolical or demonic energy
- forcibly increase the local half-drow and/or half-duergar populations (generating, again, minor fiendish influence); this must be done relatively "naturally," unfortunately... but those sucker "good" people will feel obligated to raise them anyway... muwahahahah...
- increasing the power and wealth of the cults of his demonic allies (it's going to be impossible to reclaim all that they stole...), causing chaos and destruction (much to demonic delight)... and then cementing his control over the duergar that actually follow him (while, potentially, allowing his cult to look like "saviors" to the surface population...) by allowing them to be betrayed, but providing them with an ally against the drow...
- establish a few permanent "gateways" (magical or mundane) between the Underdark and surface world
- turn a few more desperate creatures to diabolism (especially his own cult) in the midst of the chaos, corrupting them
- acquiring some very "exotic" (to the Underdark) animals to corrupt and release, and "cross-polinating" some "exotic" animals from the Underdark, both causing new monstrosities (getting him in good graces with Lamashtu, naturally) while also allowing him to potentially utilize the influence to turn more creatures to his worship
And, of course, the most important part of all of this is to ensure that it's entirely a mortal affair. None of the quasi-divine patrons are actually at fault, you see (), because, really, it was "all their idea" (even if he did kind of subtly nudge a dream or two to get there... but he can just demand the sacrifice of whatever "false" priest gave the duergar the idea later, should s/he survive the adventurer). Thus neither of the demon lords, nor Barbatos, can be directly censured by Abadar for trampling upon civilization in this way. Or, you know, he can just place the blame on Droskar who is probably the patron of these duergar anyway, really ("what a sucke- scapegoa- lousy patron! Barbatos is so much better!"), and is surely at fault, if any are ("Remember how the priest of Barbatos told you it wouldn't work? Because he did!"*).
Anyway, I hope that helps!
* Nevermind that it was Barbatos that warned Abadar while making sure he profited from all outcomes. Stupid devils and their Xanatos Gambits.
R.A. Salvatore writes books about Forgotten Realms, and there Drows usually keep others creature of their world under slavery...
I don't know how it your world works... maybe you can say us more details :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I need to print that out tacticslion
How extensive! And Diabolical! A lot there to keep straight for sure :)
@Blackbloodtroll: No. No weeping in the shower moral quandaries that go on for three pages in italics ;)
i was not talking about Dritzz... i was talking about Menzoberranzan and his evilful drows.. who makes Duergars and other creatures their slaves...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to add a twist to it the drow could just be responding to recent merchant activity that the Magnimar city council approved - a new path to the darklands was found and rights to prospect it were given to a cabal for major money - now that things have blown up they are trying to keep it hush hush - eventually you find evidence of the activity.
In that case the drow are more like hornets - generally leaving the city alone until someone decided to poke them - now they are swarming. With drow I tend to think any ally is in name only - they are either allies of convenience, or just *think* they are allies and being used because the drow find it convenient to smash lesser races against things when possible.
To that end the drow most likely have a plan to enslave the duergar as soon as the alliance is finished - they may even be already moving in behind the now 'warrior empty' duergar cities/towns and gathering up the women/children for use in the fleshpots. This is also something that can or could be found out and used to shatter the alliance.
All of this could tie in with the demon influence - if you are using the published world however note that drow/human = half-elf - not drow half-elf, and as far as I know there are no half-dwarves - so the tiefling thing works - but the other type of thing doesn't in the published world.
For a final twist (for this the merchant activity should have hit the duergar hard and caused them to ask the drow for help) - have the final stage of the adventure turn around and find out that 'a' drow wizard/cleric/oracle/whatever used magic to infiltrate the merchant cabal - setup operations in magnimar - and 'find' the path to the darklands that lead to the settlement first attacked - starting the entire chain.
I am a recovering Drizzt hater.R.A. is a great writer, love his books, always have. That drow on the other hand...
me too Daenar... my favourite are Athrogate, Jarlaxle XD!
Glad you like it, Daenar! :D
If you want to add a twist to it the drow could just be responding to recent merchant activity that the Magnimar city council approved - a new path to the darklands was found and rights to prospect it were given to a cabal for major money - now that things have blown up they are trying to keep it hush hush - eventually you find evidence of the activity.
In that case the drow are more like hornets - generally leaving the city alone until someone decided to poke them - now they are swarming.
This could well be the case... which could be an interesting twist. Especially if some of the merchants involved are Mammon's people, Barbatos could maybe "accidentally" suggest to a devil who sends-word to a devil that sends-word to a devil that sends-word to a devil that sends-word to a devil that whispers in a diabolist merchant's ear, "Oh by the way..." inflaming their greed (making Mammon yet another possible scapegoat, here; gettin' off scott-free, Barbatos is!) and starting the whole issue in the first place (but see Ckorik's idea below or above, too).
With drow I tend to think any ally is in name only - they are either allies of convenience, or just *think* they are allies and being used because the drow find it convenient to smash lesser races against things when possible.
To that end the drow most likely have a plan to enslave the duergar as soon as the alliance is finished - they may even be already moving in behind the now 'warrior empty' duergar cities/towns and gathering up the women/children for use in the fleshpots. This is also something that can or could be found out and used to shatter the alliance.
... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeh. I certainly see the reasoning here, but I'm more ambivalent to the idea that one can never trust drow. To me, if that were the case, the drow would never trust themselves, and they would have not only killed themselves out long ago, but any that do survive would be weakened and enslaved. After all, Golarion doesn't have a Lolth keeping them functioning together... at all.
To me, I would suggest that drow are only able to be trusted (generally going along with their racial descriptor as a chaotic evil race), "greed, hatred, and lust for destruction" are more or less sated, which can be done with slaves and conquering a city that dare tread on their territory. While they are, "vicious, [and] arbitrarily violent," they are also, "unpredictable." which means, to me, that they can be both trusted and distrusted to some extent (if they always betrayed you, the'd be predictable).
"If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse." both of these describe drow - thus I'd suggest that both of them hold true to an extent but, racially, the former more than the latter.
"Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are likely to be poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."
Notice the words "likely" and "typically" - that allows for exceptions. I would suspect that the drow are, in general, a partial exception, in that they persist well enough to continue as a race and flourish.
All of this could tie in with the demon influence - if you are using the published world however note that drow/human = half-elf - not drow half-elf, and as far as I know there are no half-dwarves - so the tiefling thing works - but the other type of thing doesn't in the published world.
What you say is only partially true. There is a "drow-descended" racial subtype that replaces low-light vision, adaptability (the skill focus bonus feat), and multitalented (choosing two favorite classes) with darkvision 60, lightblindness, and spell-like abilities [(1/day) each: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire]; thus while "half-drow" are, in fact "half-elves" there is also a very specific rules archetype that specifies that they are more drow than surface elf.
()
This effect would also help to encourage more creatures to work in and live in the darkness - something any devil can appreciate - as they find the light to harsh, and their natural talents lie in that direction anyway. This would naturally encourage half-drow to join with the Sczarni crime families as excellent infiltrators and smugglers; the families would likely begin working to recruit as many of these as they could for such illicit activities. I would imagine that quite a lot of these half-drow end up with the Underbridge Dweller trait.
Underbridge Dweller: You were raised in the Shadow district of Magnimar beneath the Irespan, a veiled place the light of the sun touches for only 3 hours per day. Your well-founded suspicions grant you a +2 trait bonus on Perception checks in dim light, and Perception is always a class skill for you.
Further, because both drow-blooded and drow magic exist as independent racial traits, this indicates that the effects linger in the bloodline for quite some generations later.
It might be very interesting for Magnimar to eventually become a very well integrated and egalitarian city... but not in the good way. It may become very much like a version of Riddleport, with a very high population of half-elves (and tieflings), but lots of crime. In fact, if these drow-blooded half-elves persist but are treated very poorly, Magnimar could very well become like the city Pal Ador in the 3.5 book Races of Destiny - a home to a radical anti-human and anti-elf organization known as the Scars (). That would be a highly favorable outcome for Barbatos - the "good" people would do the "good" thing and help raise the infants (never mind that they live in squalor as second-class citizens) but those same children become corrupt and hate their "parent" races (likely due in no small part to elven aggression!) - corruption for everybody! Barbatos' just givin' it away like candy! :D
As far as Half-Dwarves, I must admit that I don't know of any Paizo/Golarion-published setting of half-dwarves, though some considerations about that topic: 1) I didn't actually suggest half-dwarves (though that's actually a good idea - it was an oversight on my part), 2) we're talking duergar instead of normal dwarves, 3) if you look at Forgotten Realms canon, it's suggested that the children of dwarves and elves are... dwarves, 4) there's a half-dwarf race in the old 3.0 book Advanced Players Guide by Green Ronin (at least if I recall correctly anyway), and 5) that's what the race builder is for! :D
(Any tieflings that arise, their parent race doesn't matter: they're tieflings and the only thing that's generally true from their parent race is the most basic size/shape tendency.)
For a final twist (for this the merchant activity should have hit the duergar hard and caused them to ask the drow for help) - have the final stage of the adventure turn around and find out that 'a' drow wizard/cleric/oracle/whatever used magic to infiltrate the merchant cabal - setup operations in magnimar - and 'find' the path to the darklands that lead to the settlement first attacked - starting the entire chain.
This is actually pretty clever. It could well be that this is all part of a ploy on the wizard's part... though I wonder if he was being manipulated? It could well be that he's being tricked by a string of information (see my idea on Mammon, above) to inflame greed all-round, and that plan was slightly hijacked via subtle amendment along its circuitous path that leads from devil to demon by way of the friend of demons...
Or you could cut the whole devil aspect out completely and go entirely with the demonic angle, along the lines of those duergar who worship the demon lords.
Or Barbatos isn't really involved beyond being the mediator, and it's all part of Mammon's ultimate goal, along side of...
... which could tie into an AP and strong canon in that regard.
If you wanted to work in Orthodox Banjoist's ideas, you could even have this information fall into the drow (or other merchant's) hands more-or-less by divine "accident" (which means it's really on purpose, but no-one could really trace it).
Lots of great ideas in this thread!
me too Daenar... my favourite are Athrogate, Jarlaxle XD!
Entreri #1 Athrogate#2 Jarlaxle gets honorable mention #3 and #4 for me are colleagues from Sorcere in Menzo... Pharaun Mizzrym and Gromph Baenre, of whom my Daenar character became a composite(at first). :)
#1 Jarlaxle 2#Kimmuriel Oblodra 3#Athrogate 4#Regis
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*lots of good stuff*
Oh I know about the racial traits - 'officially' they would just be odd half-elves though but I get your ideas of 'getting them used to the dark' and it clicks.
As to half dwarves - er... I guess - that's up to you and your campaign just remember if you introduce a new (and rare) race like that someone is going to want to play it - so make sure it's balanced. I'd just have them breed dwarf or human (as in both possible roll d100).
I like your ideas with the devils - if I had the drow and the duergar working together and wanted to use devils - I'd have the devils working with the duergar (LE society) and the demons working with the drow (CE - and noted as becoming drow for making demonic pacts) - The devils are the main setup of course - being very effective planners they have each step well thought out and have responses ready.
The demons (being chaotic) see whats happening and don't like the meddling with their servants so they start tossing things in - and may even be helpful to your players just to spite the devils.... :)
The devil/demon thing could run through the entire campaign and give a segway into a higher level campaign if you want to peruse it.