^What he said.
Kukri entry, if you're curious.
Unless it has "dagger" in the name (or it tells you it's treated as a dagger) it is not, mechanically, a "dagger" despite any other outward similarities. Would you consider a pole arm the same as a "dagger"? No.
Would you consider Falchion the same as a scimitar, despite the mechanical difference between the two, because they are "reminiscent"? No.
Read the entry for the kukri up above - you do not use it like a dagger, but like a sword (that also doubles as a multi-use tool including uses similar to a house-hold axe such as wood-chopping - which, I'll not from experience, is not really "possible" in any sort of an efficient way with a dagger -, when not used as a weapon). Very different combat styles.
The mechanical entries are noticeably different as well (though they do not reflect the actual item difference in real life very well):
dagger: 1d4, 19-20/x2, 1 lbs, P or S, ranged 10 ft.; costs 2 gold
kukri: 1d4, 18-20/x2, 2 lbs, S; costs 8 gold
A critical threat difference of 1, 1 additional pound, lacking both the piercing option and the ranged attack option, and costs 6 additional gold. Two different categories of weapon (simple v. martial).
Look under the "treated as" section. It's a special property of a weapon - kukri is not "treated as" a "dagger". The butterfly knife notes that it is able to be treated as a dagger, despite not being 1 foot long.
Your friend is wrong.
Now, that said, if you wish to allow him to use a kukri, go ahead. The only reason not to is that you don't want to. And as the developers have stated - multiple times - the rules are flexible for your games, instead of a strictly-codified set of "YOU SHALL NOT PASS (OR IN THIS CASE 'ALTER')!" or whatever.
All daggers seem to be piercing capable weapons, a kukri is a slashing weapon. A kukri also does not have the words knife or dagger in it's description. I would agree with you that it does not count.
The Kukri also has some small advantage over a dagger with it's 18-20 crit range, with improved critical/keen this means the kukri has a 15-20 range, while a dagger is only 17-20. Really it is up to the GM. The daggers (most) have 2 DR options (but piercing DR weakness is very rare so it is not really a big advantage).
Well, you have options as the GM.
1) You could say it must have "Dagger" in the name. Thus Dagger, Punching Dagger, swordbreaker dagger; maybe even the Dagger Pistol.
2) You could use the Knife Master definition, "dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger."
3) You could use all similar light blades including: Brass Knife, Dagger, Punching Dagger, Switchblade Knife, Kukri, Sea Knife, Starknife, War Razor, Swordbreaker Dagger, Tribladed Katar, Butterfly Knife, Dagger Pistol, Hunga Munga, Kerambit, and Quadrens
Its kind of up to you.
Also, a strict reading of the Assassin weapon proficiencies may require him to choose one dagger to gain proficiency with, since it reads "dagger (any type)" and not "dagger (all types)."
Why is he trying to define everything as a dagger? For the sake of Knife Master sneak attack - which specifically includes Kukris? For Weapon Focus or proficiency?
In Pathfinder a "dagger" is very specific for most purposes.
Also, be wary of improvised weapons being used as 'daggers'.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#_improvised-weapons
Why is he trying to define everything as a dagger? For the sake of Knife Master sneak attack - which specifically includes Kukris? For Weapon Focus or proficiency?
In Pathfinder a "dagger" is very specific for most purposes.
Because he doesn't want to burn a feat,
Wouldn't happen at my table. Its not like there isn't a very simple work-around within the rules already. Either cross the word "dagger" out and put "kukri" in crayon on the PC sheet or spend a feat/dip into a martial class.
I read this as "I want the kukri's crit threat range but don't want to pay the price (burn a feat)"
Give an inch...they'll take a mile.
Why is he trying to define everything as a dagger?
I was confused as well - Samasboy1's last line explains it - Assassin gets proficiency with 'Daggers (any type)'.
No Kukris don't count. If they wanted Assassins to be proficient in Kukris, it would have specified it. Honestly, only weapons labeled "dagger" in the Core Rulebook qualify automatically. Anything else is up to you.
He might have a better time of it if he looked for weapons with the Deadly property, unless he's just going after high crit range. I do highly suggest the anatomist trait for a crit-focused assassin. If he's intelligent, I'd recommend the... "3rd Party" (sort of) line of feats from the movie Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising - the fighter took some feats (requiring improved initiative) that increased her critical threat range by an amount based on her intelligence and dexterity. I'm reasonably certain that they aren't play tested for balance, though (and were exhibited as a ludicrously strong combo, if you dug into the rules enough). Also, the possibility of going with Sean K Reynold's belief that keen and improved critical should stack.
Buuuuuuuuuut those are all house rules, not RAW.
Actually, Kazaan, I'm not convinced that a Butterfly Knife should not be included, as they have "treated as" line.
Hm, let's look,
Benefit: If you are proficient with the butterfly knife (or have the Quick Draw feat) and are holding it in your hand, you may open it as a free action; a nonproficient user must spend a move action to open it. Otherwise, treat this weapon as a dagger. When it’s closed, you gain a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal it on your body.
and
Treated as: If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another weapon, a character lacking the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, can still use it as if it were the other kind of weapon and feats such as Weapon Focus still apply, as do abilities requiring a certain weapon. For example, the butterfly knife allows a proficient user to open or close it as a free action and is otherwise treated as a dagger, meaning she can wield it as a dagger, gain the benefit of Weapon Focus (dagger) when wielding it, use it as the target of a spell that only affects daggers, and so on.
... hm. I could see what you're saying, yeah. It clarifies feats "such as" (vague term) Weapon Focus instead of feats "relating to" (which was what I was thinking from before).
That said, I may recommend that it's like the bastard sword in that way: entirely usable by someone with lower proficiency, but lacking the standard benefits, which is how a RAW reading of its "benefit" actually reads to me (nonproficiency = open as a move action; otherwise treat as a dagger).
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I think it is in regards to the Assassin's proficiency line:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Assassins are proficient with the crossbow (hand, light, or heavy), dagger (any type), dart, rapier, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Assassins are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
I believe he wants that bolded portion to apply to Kukris.
Now, I might give him the Punching Dagger, Swordbreaker Dagger, and maybe even the Dagger Pistol, but not the Kukri.
For me, I would go with anything with "Dagger" in the name.
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Then there is the River Rat trait that gives you a +1 damage with Daggers only. Not punching Daggers, not Swordbreaker Dagger, nothing that isn't a plain dagger.
But Assassin is a PrC. If he really wants to use a Kukri, take a level of a class that grants proficiency in all martial weapons before entering the class.
Or better yet, don't take assassin at all, play a ninja instead, and use the superior wakizashi.
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In rl daggers tend to be defined by the point. Kukri are often refered ro as knives but they are not daggers.
Really the kukri isn't a dagger by any game definition. The knife master simply confirms it is a...knife.
That was what I understood it as, too, bbt.
But the question is why he wants it. Answering that question is the basis for my alternate suggestions.
I do think kukris could be very well work as an assassin weapon - it fits thematically and would be good/interesting flavor.
But it's not like a dagger at all.
I was talking about Butterfly Swords, not the Butterfly Knife. The Butterfly Knife would be included as a Dagger even under most strict reading because it explicitly states "counts as a dagger". But Butterfly Swords are a different animal entirely.
Ah. Since I'd mentioned Butterfly Knives, and I didn't see anything else referring to "butterfly" I was under the impression you were responding to my point in particular. I actually hadn't heard of the butterfly knife, and, upon seeing it, promptly forgot butterfly sword, which, you are correct, is a different weapon. Gotcha. :)
This was created back when Barbed Daggers were an exotic weapon from 3.5. That is why it is there. It did +1 damage per sneak attack dice if you must know.
So next question. Is a wakizashi considered a dagger?????
No.
In other news, Assassin is old and weird.
Anyway : Not all knives are daggers, and short swords and sabres definitely aren't.
But you're the ultimate arbiter here. Raw, unless it specifically says so in their description, precious few weapons qualify.
In practice, Assassin isn't great - probably a step down, really - so feel free to be rule as you will. Kukris are likely the best thing he could get his hands on : if you're okay with him using those, go for it. It's absolutely not what the rules say, but it's your table. I'd be wary, given the argument used, but you know your player better than I do.
In no world should a wakizashi be considered a dagger. Still, your choice.
However, dictionary definition of what a "dagger" is should have only little bearing here.