I know that casting a touch spell grants you the ability to make a free action touch attack during the same round you cast the spell. Where in the rules is this found?
More to the point, since this attack is a free action, can it be made mid-move action?
Can you cast a touch spell, move 15ft towards an enemy, make the touch attack, and then complete your move another 15ft away from the enemy? Of course this would provoke from the movement as normal, but... is it legit to use the free action touch mid-move, or does using the free action force an end to your move?
From the SRD:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
You can't use the action mid-move, as you can move ("take your move," implying an unbroken action) only "before casting the spell," "after touching the target," or "between casting the spell and touching the target."
Is there anything that would cause a free action to prematurely end a move action? I was under the impression that free actions could be done in conjunction with other actions without issue.
In the example I listed, the move action is being taken between casting the spell and touching the target, it just continues on afterwards to completion. Unless you want to count the completion the as the time stamp, in which case the move is being taken after the touch is delivered, it just started before it. Either way it seems compatible.
Thanks for the quote Orfamay!
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Is there anything that would cause a free action to prematurely end a move action? I was under the impression that free actions could be done in conjunction with other actions without issue.
I'm not responsible for your mistaken impressions.
In the example I listed, the move action is being taken between casting the spell and touching the target, it just continues on afterwards to completion.
It does not. You used your move action to move the first fifteen feet and then, presumably voluntarily, forwent the rest of your move. Being able to move 30 feet does not prevent you from moving 15 feet and stopping.
Otherwise, what is the point of Spring Attack? If you had spring attack you could do what you are suggesting for attacking mid-stride, but not without it.
The touch attack is a free action, because it's a part of the standard action to cast the spell. If you were to make a touch attack that wasn't part of the casting of the spell it would be its own standard action.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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"You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target."
That literally spells out when the free action touch can be performed, none of which include mid move.
Free actions can be taken during another action.
We have a specific rule that states when you may take the action, but doesn't disallow the general rule. As far as I know, general rules stand as long as specific rules don't specifically disallow them. I do agree that it seems to indicate that RAI is that you can't take the touch attack as part of the move action though.
Specific trumps general.
If I told you "Hey, here are the plans for a building (The spell being cast)" and then told you "You can make it out of wood, bricks, or steel." Do you really think you can go "I made it out of plastic, because you can also make a house out of plastic and you didnt tell me I cant make it out of plastic"???
I know thats a rather hamfisted comparison, but I think it gets the job done.
Thats because you dont need to change it. General rules dont factor into a specific ability, unless the ability itself actually makes mention of it. Breaking a multiple choice of A, B and C by saying that normally theres also a D makes no sense. You werent asked to chose between A, B, C and D.
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No, you aren't allowed to touch between the move action for the spell.
You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
Pretty clear to me on what you are allowed to do.
1) Move before cast the spell (then cast the spell and touch or hold the spell for a regular touch attack action next round).
2) Move after touching the target (cast the spell, then touching and then moving)
3) Move between casting the spell and touching de target. And then your move action stops right before the touch.
Even with Spring Attack, in the round of magic was casted, I won't allow that spell-move-touch-move in my games... Maybe a homebrewed talent that have pre-reqs Spring Attack work better.
Spring Magic Touch Attack:
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4
As a full-round action, you can cast a spell, move up to your speed and make a single touch attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the touch attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the touch attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to touch attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn. If you lost the spell for any reason (counter-spell, concentration failed) you cannot do a regular attack while moving.
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I would think you cannot, since the gauntlet is then used as a weapon, and spells cannot be channeled through weapons (Unless one is a Magus)
The point is moot though, since touch attacks from spells dont provoke to begin with.
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It's an inclusive (or is it exclusive?) list that tells you when you can take your move while using touch spells in combat. It has no bearing on any other action or move action that you want to take. It is specifically talking about your normal move.It doesn't say you can take a move action, just a move. The same way it doesn't say you can use your free action during the move. Why is one thing it doesn't say a restriction while the other thing it doesn't say isn't a restriction?
You completely missed my point. Think of the sentence as answering a question: When am I allowed to take my movement when I cast a touch spell?
It is rules governing movement and nothing else. You follow any normal rules for taking move actions or quick actions or whatever else you want to do.
Remember also that there are feats (Spring Attack) that let you move-attack-move and generally if there is a feat that lets you do something then you can't normally do it without the feat.
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But it's not a complete list of things that you can do. It is only a list of when you are allowed to move. That's it. For example, if you want rules for standard actions you don't look in the quick actions area do you? You are trying to say that sentence governs something that is not even mentioned in it (move actions, free actions, etc).
Spring attack sets a precedence that normally you cannot move before and after an attack. It may be a free action but it is still a touch attack. The reason it is a free action is so that you don't have to take another standard in order to cast then touch attack on the target in the same turn.
You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
That sentence is all you need to know, its that simple. If you perform the touch midway through your move, you are doing none of the above three, thus violating the rules for the free touch attack associated with a touch spell.
And dont try to tell me that you would qualify Cast-Move-Touch-Move as being "between casting the spell and touching the target", because that is not what "between" means.
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The touch mentioned in the sentence is a free action. You are trying to say that sentence modifies the rules for free actions (specifically that you can't take that free action during a move action), not me.
I'm not saying anything of the sort. I am saying that sentence defines how you use that touch attack in relation to movement. It is only a free action in order to allow you to make the touch attack in the same round as casting the spell.
And you're ignoring the fact that it is still an attack and thus has to follow the rules for making attacks.
You can absolutely move before and after an attack.
This is completely wrong. You can move before or after an attack but not both in the same round without using a feat or special ability that lets you.
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
I don't see how this is relevant.
Now back to spring attack as it is relevant. Every feat has a "normal" condition in its description explaining how things normally work if that feat isn't used. I don't care about the specifics of the feat other than it lets you partial move-attack-continue same move. So, we know what the benefits of the feat are. What are the normal rules without the feat?
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
I can't say it any more plainer than that. If you could aready move-attack-move without this feat (which is what you claim) then the feat is utterly pointless?
Edit: Corrected some mistakes I made.
I should have been more specific:
" Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."You could not apply a spiked gauntlet to this case, correct (not without being a magus, as it were)?
You want a cestus for that, not a spiked guantlet. Cestus makes all your unarmed attacks considered armed while worn.
Say you move 15ft into an enemy's space and provoke. That enemy tries to trip you, without improved trip, so provokes an AoO from you, you hit him with an attack, he fails his trip.
Can you continue your move action? You made an attack. Some of the arguments here seem to indicate that your move is over now because you made an attack.
The touch attack made with a touch spell, in the same round it is cast, is a free action.
A free action.
Can you perform free actions while making a move action? Yes of course.
Talking is a free action, can you not talk while moving? Does opening your mouth to say "Hi" end your move?
So far, the only thing that is even remotely relative is:
You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
But that isn't restrictive in any way. It is instructive, informative. Notice the word "May". That line is helpful guidance so that people who read that section are aware that the free action to make the touch doesn't have to happen immediately and concurrently with the standard action to cast it.
So, we know free actions can be done with other action types.
We know that this touch attack is a free action.
We know an attack in and of itself doesn't force other actions to end. They can interrupt them mid-action.
That seems to leave us with the conclusion that you can use this touch attack mid-move. Naturally this tactic would almost never be optimal, as your movement would provoke an AoO. But, it seems like a legit RAW option.
Are there any other counter arguments/corrections?
You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.But that isn't restrictive in any way. It is instructive, informative. Notice the word "May". That line is helpful guidance so that people who read that section are aware that the free action to make the touch doesn't have to happen immediately and concurrently with the standard action to cast it.
It's actually quite restrictive. That may is to let you know that in addition to casting the spell, then standing still and using your free touch attack from your current position, you may also move before or after doing the touch attack. Not before and after. The list of things you may do in regards to movement and a free touch attack is an exhaustive list.
Being able to take an AoO in the scenario you provided Remy isn't proof that you can move and attack (AoO's are there own thing) - though to be fair I don't buy the 'its an attack' is what limits your options in the first place - that is a weak argument. The limiting factor is the one piece of rules that has been quoted already.
No additional arguments are needed because this is a specific rule. The rule on being able to take free actions during other actions is a general rule.
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Let me put in these terms:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
For this last sentence, it said clearly that there are limits on what you can really do for free, and now read this:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
And ladies and gentleman, the text establishes the reasonable limits of Free Action Touching Spells.
The general rules of Free Action did put a statement on "reasonable limits" and the specific rule of Touch Spells, specific what is reasonable limit for it.
EDIT: Remember that the move-attack-move is a full-round action (in time spent-wise) that require a feat to do.
From what I understood, after reading all arguments.
It's actually quite restrictive. That may is to let you know that in addition to casting the spell, then standing still and using your free touch attack from your current position, you may also move before or after doing the touch attack. Not before and after. The list of things you may do in regards to movement and a free touch attack is an exhaustive list.
Hrm. I see how you could see it that way.
I think the reason I read it differently is that this line is speaking to what options you have available for when to deliver the free action. It is written in an explanatory fashion.
It isn't a special restriction on move actions. And, for what it is worth… ‘may’ isn’t a restricting word in any sense.
“You make go to the mall.” Does this mean you ‘must’ go to the mall? Naw, it is just that you are given permission to. Does this give us permission to go to the movies? Naw… but it also doesn’t say we cannot go to the movies.
And yes, I recognize that the rules of this game are permissive. That you need permission to do something. And that rule is completely silent on taking the free action ‘during a move’.
But in this case the general rules of Free Actions give us the permission we need. They are akin to saying “You may go wherever you want during the day”. And when you add the bit about touch spells “You may go to the mall”…well, duh, we know that already, we have permission to go wherever we want.
But guess what? We know that we can go to the movies now, because we can go wherever we want, as a general rule.
Really, it is that simple. The general rules of Free actions give us permission to use them whenever we like, during our turn at least. The specific rule about this Free Action touch attack do not in any way restrict our options. There is no written restriction there, only permissive options given.
Being able to take an AoO in the scenario you provided Remy isn't proof that you can move and attack (AoO's are there own thing) - though to be fair I don't buy the 'its an attack' is what limits your options in the first place - that is a weak argument. The limiting factor is the one piece of rules that has been quoted already.
Well, maybe it is pedantic of me... but that actually is proof of exactly that. If I show a way that you can attack mid move, that is de facto proof that you can attack mid-move.
Anyway, it was a response to said 'weak argument', and only really applies to people who think 'attacking' somehow causes move actions to end. There is nothing about attacking, in and of itself, which can cause a move action to end.
Certain methods of attacking can, specific types of attacks might... but 'attacking' in general has no bearing on whether you are in the middle of an action or otherwise.
No additional arguments are needed because this is a specific rule. The rule on being able to take free actions during other actions is a general rule.
This specific rule is that the touch attack is a free action, for which we use the general rules of free actions.
There is nothing in that text that says your move needs to end if you use the free action. If it did, then yes, specific trumps general. But there isn't anything in there which specifically contradict the general rules for free actions.
Given that the general rules are not being contested or trumped, as there is zero conflict here, then we must conclude that the free action you use for this touch attack can be made mid-move, as would be possible for any other free action.
Given that the general rules are not being contested or trumped, as there is zero conflict here, then we must conclude that the free action you use for this touch attack can be made mid-move, as would be possible for any other free action.
Going to disagree. Even if you can find a rules quote that says you can, as a DM, I would invoke the reasonable limitation clause of free actions to deny you the ability to continue moving after your free action touch spell. I do, however, allow characters to cast a buff spell (such as resist energy) and move past an ally, using a free action to touch them while you continue to move. This is very different to me as a DM, since your ally WANTS the spell and you can communicate to them to give you a high five on the way past.
I'm curious though - are there any people out there who actually play it this way? (A creature can cast a touch spell, move forward 15 feet, deliver it as a free action to an enemy, then continue their move action?)
I'm curious though - are there any people out there who actually play it this way? (A creature can cast a touch spell, move forward 15 feet, deliver it as a free action to an enemy, then continue their move action?)
Personally I think it doesn't come up all that often, simply because you would almost never want to do it. Barring some unusual circumstances.
Moving in 15ft, delivering the touch spell, and then ending your movement, so as to not provoke... that seems to be the smart move most of the time. Remember, getting into range to touch, and then moving away again, well... for most characters ever, that means eating a falchion/bite/slam etc to the face. Not ideal.
So, the rate at which people would even try to use this tactic would naturally be small.
It would apply the same to delivering touch spells to friendlies, though, which wouldn't have the same drawbacks.