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I had a player submit a character for a PFS game with a bit of an oddity that I'm thinking isn't quite legal.
He says that his Eidolon has a 'hand' on the end of it's tail that lets him use skills like 'Disable Device' 'Sleight of Hand' and 'Use Magic Device'.
I'm not quite convinced he should be able to do this without taking the 'Arms' Evolution as there seems to be no other way to actually get a 'Hand'. Alchemists have an option for having one extra arm.. but not Eidolons.
He is level 3 so other GMs have let this slide and it is a fairly significant part of his Eidolon build, at least as far as it's skills go.
What is the concensus?
If he wanted it strictly for a non-mechanical use ("I want him to be able to make rude hand gestures at the enemy in combat!"), sure why not. The second he tries to use it for a mechanical advantage I'd say no. If you want to get around the weakness of your base evolution form, pay the points like everyone else.
Eidolons don't get a free hand with a tail, or a prehensile tail, or whatever this is. Also, a tail is not a legal limb for a hand...although that would be funny to see a big snake with a Mickey Mouse style glove at the end of the tail.
Likely he is trying to get his Eidolon to use that wonderful UMD skill, but hasn't got the evolution points for the limbs. The short of it is: no, one cannot do this without the right limbs. You are right in your assessment, Blackfoot.
In PFS I don't think it will fly. At a home game, you might allow one 'hand' if he's already bought a prehensile tail for the eidolon... or if it's described as tentacles around the mouth.
Is there a prehensile tail option? All that it says under Tail is that it provides a +2 Acrobatics for balance; it doesn't mention anyway to make it prehensile.
I'm in agreement with chaoseffect. However, there is nothing stating that he can't do it. In fact, he can have 20 hands growing out of his tail. How his eidolon looks is entirely up to the summoner.
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was dismissed or banished. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished. The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires. The eidolon’s Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner’s class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner’s class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner.
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).
He could have 20 heads, for look and flavor purposes, sure, that's what it looks like, but it can only use on of them, because the evolution points have to be spent to use the extra heads.
If anything, I'd rule that he can't use tail slap with a hand though. He either gets the tail attack or the hand. Not both.
An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon’s base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.
He doesn't get an attack from having hands, he has to get an additional evolution for that.
Past that, I'd say let him go for it. After all, you're the DM, you're the final arbiter.
He's trying to have it use MW tools as well. He's not going to be happy with me.
Just rule that using something like lock picks takes 2 hands.
Hint: it does.
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You'd probably use Tentacle for it, then. Been a while since I read the eidolon menu options, but I'd be astounded if Tentacle wasn't an option. How could any otaku play a summoner if there were no Tentacles?!
There is a Tentacle Evolution but it doesn't say anything about manipulation. In fact.. there is very little verbage about manipulation at all in the Eidolon writeup.
"An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills."
Define appropriate appendages?
He could have 20 heads, for look and flavor purposes, sure, that's what it looks like, but it can only use on of them, because the evolution points have to be spent to use the extra heads.
If anything, I'd rule that he can't use tail slap with a hand though. He either gets the tail attack or the hand. Not both.
Sindalla, that is a mechanical advantage. The tail slap sucks, since it is secondary, and it only serves to make the bite attack not be the 'only natural attack' (which would mean 1.5x str and power attack damage). I'd gladly trade that dead weight away for a nice hand.
I believe evolution has taught us that tool use requires hands."An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills."Define appropriate appendages?
To be fair, I don't think most creatures in our world are outsiders summoned from another plan of equal or greater intelligence to our own and shaped by a magical guy with a rune on his face.
Was more of a point that someone might think something entirely different than you. You leave something up to interpretation and you get a dozen subjective answers dontcha' know.
That's exactly what I said in the 2nd half of the sentence.That's not a good enough answer. There's nothing that says you can't knit a sweater when you're dead either. The burden of proof is for him to find something that says he can have hands without an arm evolution.I'm in agreement with chaoseffect. However, there is nothing stating that he can't do it. In fact, he can have 20 hands growing out of his tail. How his eidolon looks is entirely up to the summoner.
In fact, he can have 20 hands growing out of his tail. How his eidolon looks is entirely up to the summoner.
I then quoted the text that allows him to have a hand on his tail, because he can make his eidolon look however he wants it to look.
This is a matter of RAW vs. RAI, and I'm sure that RAI, you're supposed to have the limbs evolution to get hands, because it says you get those for free as part of the limbs evolution.
RAW, the summoner can make his Eidolon look however he wishes. If he wants his eidolon to have a pair of hands in place of ears, he can do that.
Dragons don't have hands but they can use a lot of magic items, right?
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It's a question of how it 'looks' vs how it 'functions'.
This quote...
"An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills."
...suggests that the function is dependent on having the proper limbs purchased.
Since a serpentine eidolon has no appendages... it isn't really able to do some skills.
Obviously you have to have manipulative appendages to use tools and pick a lock. They don't have to be hands per se but they have to be as dexterous as hands. You don't get that with a tail unless it's called out as prehensile, which isn't an option for an eidolon. Two tentacles could probably do it, as people have noted regarding octopodes picking locks.
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After reading the eidolon information, I would not allow the tail hand. Nothing in the tail description gives you hands. The limb evolution gives your eidolon hands or feet your choice. So even RAI or RAW a tail does not give you a hand.
I'm pretty sure the player just said "on the end of their tail" as flavour, since it's serpentine. This might be disputable, but it doesn't seem like the player intends to abuse it based on where the hand is on the serpentine body.
Who cares if it the limb is half way up the body or on the end of its tail if it has no mechanical benefit?
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Actually, the player in question just wants a hand on the end of it's 'arm-like' tail without taking any evolutions for it.
My issue is he's trying to skirt the rules by taking advantage of some vague wording. In the process he's adding a bunch of other vaguely legal things in as well. (lots of MW tools).. the combination .. well.. makes me thing that there are going to be lots of rules discussions and worse.. interpretations.. at my table.
Actually, the player in question just wants a hand on the end of it's 'arm-like' tail without taking any evolutions for it.
My issue is he's trying to skirt the rules by taking advantage of some vague wording. In the process he's adding a bunch of other vaguely legal things in as well. (lots of MW tools).. the combination .. well.. makes me thing that there are going to be lots of rules discussions and worse.. interpretations.. at my table.
I really think it's as simple as "Serpentine form doesn't have the limbs evolution, so if you want functioning limbs you need to take Limbs." Anything else he brings up is completely moot because the core assumption of his argument is fundamentally wrong.
I had a player submit a character for a PFS game with a bit of an oddity that I'm thinking isn't quite legal.
He says that his Eidolon has a 'hand' on the end of it's tail that lets him use skills like 'Disable Device' 'Sleight of Hand' and 'Use Magic Device'.
I'm not quite convinced he should be able to do this without taking the 'Arms' Evolution as there seems to be no other way to actually get a 'Hand'. Alchemists have an option for having one extra arm.. but not Eidolons.
He is level 3 so other GMs have let this slide and it is a fairly significant part of his Eidolon build, at least as far as it's skills go.
What is the concensus?
Sure, he can have a hand on the end of his eidolon's tail...
But the hand has no additional mechanical benefit (although a tail slap with the hand is visually amusing). The same way an eidolon can have wings, but can't fly or use the wings for natural attacks (wing buffets) without the appropriate evolutions; or the eidolon can have multiple limbs and/or tentacles that are not useable without the appropriate evolutions.
If the player wants a way for his eidolon to manipulate objects with a hand, then he needs to select the limbs evolution. For a home game, you could possibly house rule that a single arm/hand would be 1 evolution point, instead of 2 points for a pair.
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Note: This is almost exactly the same as a player saying "My character spent a year studying at wizard school, so he should be able to make Knowledge (Arcana) checks, even though he has no ranks in the skill."
Note: This is almost exactly the same as a player saying "My character spent a year studying at wizard school, so he should be able to make Knowledge (Arcana) checks, even though he has no ranks in the skill."
Exactly. There's already an evolution that can give you hands, which you pay for with evolution points. This player is trying to gain the benefits without paying the cost.
Note: This is almost exactly the same as a player saying "My character spent a year studying at wizard school, so he should be able to make Knowledge (Arcana) checks, even though he has no ranks in the skill."
Except that its not the same at all! That's a very black and white no you can't unless its DC 10 or below or have access to a library.
Note: This is almost exactly the same as a player saying "My character spent a year studying at wizard school, so he should be able to make Knowledge (Arcana) checks, even though he has no ranks in the skill."Except that its not the same at all! That's a very black and white no you can't unless its DC 10 or below or have access to a library.
Seems pretty black and white to me:
-There is an evolution that specifically gives the eidolon hands
-This eidolon doesn't have that evolution
-Ergo, the eidolon doesn't have hands
Note: This is almost exactly the same as a player saying "My character spent a year studying at wizard school, so he should be able to make Knowledge (Arcana) checks, even though he has no ranks in the skill."Except that its not the same at all! That's a very black and white no you can't unless its DC 10 or below or have access to a library.Seems pretty black and white to me:
-There is an evolution that specifically gives the eidolon hands
-This eidolon doesn't have that evolution
-Ergo, the eidolon doesn't have hands
Right, there is an arms evolution that gives the eidolon arms, so to have arms that have any mechanical function in PFS he needs them. No one said otherwise.
As to what a tail can and can't do, that's pretty vague. Probably safe to say it can't UMD in PFS because they want hands for that, but disable device might mean a number of things. Case by case it could look a lot different.
Right, there is an arms evolution that gives the eidolon arms, so to have arms that have any mechanical function in PFS he needs them. No one said otherwise.
As to what a tail can and can't do, that's pretty vague. Probably safe to say it can't UMD in PFS because they want hands for that, but disable device might mean a number of things. Case by case it could look a lot different.
I guess you just have to rely upon precedent. For example, I am fairly sure that in PFS, the only familiars that can use wands are humanoid shaped (so quasit, imp, and lyrakin). Of course, that doesn't necessarily prevent all UMD (some things are just verbally commanded), but it still gives a nice benchmark.
Also, the carnivalist archetype for rogues has the "Trained Legerdemain" ability. This allows to command their familiar... or pet (As in normal little critter it seems) to use disable device with certain bonuses. I assume that this 'command' bit is there so everyone can't go around telling their dogs to pick a lock, but it does give at least some precedent for non-humanoid creatures using disable device (although the DC is increased by 5). I don't know if this helps or confuses the matter though.
Actually, the player in question just wants a hand on the end of it's 'arm-like' tail without taking any evolutions for it.
My issue is he's trying to skirt the rules by taking advantage of some vague wording. In the process he's adding a bunch of other vaguely legal things in as well. (lots of MW tools).. the combination .. well.. makes me thing that there are going to be lots of rules discussions and worse.. interpretations.. at my table.
More than rules advice, what may be needed (as a more general statement) are seminars and workshops about handling player issues.
Say, for example: http://wesschneider.tumblr.com/post/84632980776/how-do-i-deal-with-a-diffic ult-player-the-kind-of
...and turning that into a regular workshop at events and conventions.
This isn't saying you aren't skilled; it's more that, I suspect, many of these rules questions are at heart, really OOC issues at the gaming table.