Our DM has decided on "which AP start to play"...and he decided for Rise of the Runelords..i've only readed about it that people call it "The Killer-AP", so i'm a little worried...and this is the time for choices.
now i'm planning to use one of my builds:
- Transmuter
- Witch
In party we'll probably have:
- Echantress
- Paladin
- Wizard
- Barbarian
- ME
so i'm asking... no spoilers, only a few things: will be possible to use Will-affected Spells/Hex (For me and the "probably" Echantress) ? Is SR often current?
Or should i go with Transmuter? Or something Else?
Thanks for any advice!
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I could see some fun roleplay possibilities of playing a transmuter in that campaign. As I recall there are a lot of humanoid and monstrous humanoids in that AP, I don't recall too many things with SR until the last book or so. However, I was playing a barbarian so wasn't paying that much attention.
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I'll second Mischief Mondragon.
There's ample chance for highly thematic and entertaining interaction with the story as a Transmuter :)
-Nearyn
@Nearyn Highly appropriate avatar.
"I thank you kindly, inferior maggot" >:P
-Nearyn
the wizard is universalist who uses some illusions (and he's not so good in using them XD ahaha)
thanks for the advices... now my transmuter build (not really mine...i got some help to do it) it's a transmuter focusing in polymorph spells and "good" to fight in melee
some last news: i've been on the phone right now with the "Enchantress" and she has changed her idea... now going for an Arcane Trickster..
does this change something? is Transmuter the best option yet?
and i think i'm loosing something... "Familiar good as a dragon"... how this? :)
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Ehh I feel the arcane trickster is weak-sauce for a Player Killer AP. It is hard to get up and running as well. She will have levels where she feels just so weak in comparison to everyone else.
So far You are still looking at either Transmutation or a Witch again.
Both will offer really good Role play. Both builds I still recommend Improved Familiar. Your Illusionist sucks...tell him to roll Bard, sing for the party, and learn how to use Illusions more effectively. You can't be a bad Wizard. Bad wizards means bad party. Wizard requires the most thinking and planning and if he can't even use silent image right he has no business taking the Full arcane caster spot in the party. Then you Take the Transmutation Wizard. If you can't convince him to give up on the Bad universal Illusion wizard then go Witch and slumber hex everything that isn't immune.
Hands down I would so Play a Lawful Evil Transmutation Specialist with an Improved Familiar of an Imp. You don't glow when the paladin detects evil on you...Your familiar will need to hide himself out of the paladin's view when he detects evil but other then that Invisible and Beast shape will take care of hiding the Imp. At that point however I doubt your pally needs to Detect evil often because everything will be evil at this point.
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and i think i'm loosing something... "Familiar good as a dragon"... how this? :)
1. you can cast spells with a target of "you" on your familiar through the share spells familiar ability. Form of the dragon is one such high level spell and would allow you to turn your canary or whatever into a huge fricking dragon complete with a breath weapon. Burning gaze is another "you" spell for familiars. It gives them a piddly eye beam attack. better than nothing.
Your familiar gets share spell. You can Cast a spell on him Like form of the Dragon. You can also Have him deliver touch spells. A familiar also shares all his master's skill. Take Dangerously Curious and give your Familiar a wand. Now you have extra actions in combat. He can use a wand of Enervation to debuff your target's Saves before you cast your Save or Die spell. Plenty you can do with a improved familiar.
i don't think the player will change his wizard... i can really use it effectively... i said he's a bad wizard because he's not able to role illusion (and i think illusion are the best option to role and win before fight)...
who's hex-immune? A witch can fit at the same of a Transmuter...or better/lesser?
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Because you don't want spoilers I can't tell you why a witch Transmuter would not work the same as a Wizard Transmuter in this campaign. All I can say is this is a WIZARD campaign. Like all classes will do fine but a Wizard player will be in heaven. And having played through it I can say I want to play a Wizard in it again. On top of that the difficulty of this campaign as compared to some of the others is much higher. This is not a campaign for people to not pull their weight. If they can not be prepared for many deaths.
I didn't say Hex Immune I said Slumber Hex immune. Elves and Half elves Are immune to sleep effects. Things like that. The trouble with a witch as well is if your familiar dies you just lost your spell book. And familiars are more easily targeted than a spellbook in a handy haversack.
It is sad that he won't give up the bad Wizard. I hope that does not come back to bite the group in the ass several times.
personally i would not play an "Healer-Witch"... my idea of Witch is strong debuffing and some summoning...
okk so i'll play a wizard transmuter... i really trust your advices guys...
here Gregory Connolly made me a Build for a Transmuter: Transmuter
What do you think about? have you any advice about?
some last news: i've been on the phone right now with the "Enchantress" and she has changed her idea... now going for an Arcane Trickster..
does this change something? is Transmuter the best option yet?
You have 2 frontliners
And 2 arcane casters. Even if the enchantress goes arcane trickster they are usually mostly caster with a little rogue. You have some pretty big gaps in your party. You are pretty much absent a divine caster (except what little the paladin can do eventually) and you are lacking a skill monkey (though the arcane trickster may be able to handle some of that depending on how she goes about it).I would go inquisitor, or something similar to try and fill in some of that gap. Maybe an alchemist, but either way, a transmuter is probably not the best addition to this party.
i think arcane trickster will focus more on rogue than wiz (don't ask me why lol) and maybe can cover the face-role (surely bluff and some other skill that she'll use to trick the party will be covered... knowing the player -.-")
as a Transmuter i'm wondering if the build, which assume my PC polymorphing and let fight in melee, is good, or maybe is better i focus on INT and then buff others, polymorph my familiar and let them fight :)
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personally i would not play an "Healer-Witch"... my idea of Witch is strong debuffing and some summoning...
That's the thing. If you grab the Healing patron you need no other investment to be a good enough healer and can focus the rest of your character on summoning/debuffing and still fill the needed role.
Transmuter Wizard probably does have some very nice roleplay opportunities (given the little I know about RotRL) but mechanically...going without a healer (specifically condition removal, HP can be handled with a wand) really hurts.
i know and i'm right with you... but i usually play Healer-botson campaign, and people always count on me for this role... but for one time i said before: i will not play the usually heal-bot...and i'm not going to do that... they will learn something maybe... someone else could make a character that heals :) but not me, not this time..
so i'm really going with Transmuter... but i don't really know how to optimize it :3
i don't know but (seems to me) in pathfinder multiclassing is not so good (or maybe just say it's not so unbalanced like 3.5 was)
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If you go transmuter I would focus on INT and let your familiar be shape-shifted into going up front. I would avoid front-lines like the plague.
If you do decide to fall into another class because some people can not get away from typical group make up of Skills, Arcane, Divine, Meat-shield.
going without a healer (specifically condition removal, HP can be handled with a wand) really hurt
In same truth Removals can be Done via Potions, Mercies, and Scrolls and a good UMD. One big condition is Remove Blindness which I recommend each Player carry 1 potion of after book 2 till the end of the campaign. And the "front-liners" get a scroll of Death Ward. If you are prepared for those 2 things then you should be alright without a dedicated "healer". I typically main clerics and even I hate being called the "healer". Preventing Damage is so much better then Trying to just heal through it. As a transmuter you can defiantly find ways to Prevent damage. When they are slowed they can't full attack which can prevent damage. Stoneskin Communal is a way to give the group DR on top of restricting creatures from full attacking. You Make your Save or Loose spells you entirely remove people out of combat. Flesh to stone is kind of funny.
But if you are swayed into another class let us know. Once you are 100% certain on what you will play I will give you a build suggestion and some advice and try my best not to spoil anything.
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and would cast as a level 13 wizard and cleric. How is that bad?
In RoTRL a level 13 caster is terrible at end game...Your casting much lower level spells while your enemies will be up to 9th level spells. If you wasn't playing RotRL I would probably change that opinion. But you should not sacrifice 9th level spells if you can achieve them.
i absolutely straight on for Transmuter... i will play that class unregarding to party's lack or whatever :)
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i absolutely straight on for Transmuter... i will play that class unregarding to party's lack or whatever :)
Look for my build tomorrow. I need a little time because I have work in a bit and can't enter anything large through my phone. But I will defiantly try to give you a spoiler free build advice for RotRL to get you through the campaign. Having played it I know what will work for you and what wont.
thank you :) maybe if you could also advice on which school opposite :) race or whatever it'll be fun!!
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Transmuter wizard will be fun, if you don't want to cheese it by picking the Foresite(divination) school for the high initiative I suggest taking divination and either necromancy or enchantment as your opposed schools.
My build will suggest Divination and Enchantment as opposed schools. I favor necromancy as it has some great spells Like Enervation that will make his Transmutation Save-or-Die spells land more often. I typically Drop those schools on most my wizards.
I completed RotRL 2 months ago (as a barbarian) and am now playing the early entry MT in Wrath of the Righteous.
Cool I played that campaign as a Conjuration/Crafting Wizard Archmage. Crafted everything for the group and doubled our wealth by level. Then just curb stomped everything with Mythic time stop at end game. Wrath of the Righteous was super easy compared to RotRL. At least for my group that has played a good majority of the APs.
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For race I like Elf: the Elven Magic racial ability will help at high levels to overcome SR and you can replace Weapon Familiarity with the Arcane Focus alternate racial ability to boost your chances of casting defensively.
This too will be in my build. I favor Elves as arcane INT casters...The alternate Favored Class ability also will come into play in my build. Don't worry I'll have something strong for you that stays pure transmutation specialized wizard.By the end of book 4 he will probably be the strongest party member.
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Well Here are the Build suggestions/advice for a Transmutation Wizard.
First and Foremost about your trait Choices. Typically Adventure Paths tell you to pick 1 Campaign Specific trait and 1 Trait of your Choosing. I will give your choices here:
BEST Campaign Traits for RotRL:
Out-lander- Exiled+2 initiative
Favored son/daughter -Innkeeper +10% more gold when selling
Best Magic Traits:
Dangerously Curious- UMD as a Class Skill
Transmuter
You can "cheat" UMD by getting your headband of Int to give you skills in UMD. But I prefer my first skill to be perception since it isn't a class skill either. Also note UMD is a class skill for a Loremaster if you go with the Half-elf loremaster build.
TBH Transmuter is better in the long run if you can handle not having UMD and Perception till you get a headband of vast INT +4 to give you those skills.
Race- Elf-Alternative Racial Traits-Arcane Focus
20 point buy:
Str:8 Dex:14 Con:13 Int:20 Wis:10 Cha:7
(level ups +1 to Con and +3 into Int)
Favored Class Bonus: Mostly HP but get a few Elf-Favored Class for Prescience or Versatile Evocation (you only get 1 so pick your favorite out of the two.)
Feats:
1-Improved Inatitive (sorry but going first is still prefered)
1- Scribe Scroll
3- Spell Focus- Transmutation
5- Greater Spell Focus- Transmutation
5- Extend Spell or Bouncing Spell (+1 Meta-magic)
7- Improved Familiar- Mephit, Imp, Or Custom Job!
9- Spell Penetration
10-Persistent spell or Empower
11- Spell Focus- Necromancy
13- Quicken Spell
15- Spell Perfection
15-
17-
I good Combo I like is Launching as Big an Enervation as I can to strip them of Levels before I cast the Save or Die Spell. A Empowered Enervation can strip 2-6 on their saves. Negative level stack.
Another good Spell choice is Bestow curse to give -6 to a save stat your about to target.
Don't be afraid to Empower a Ray of Enfeeblement as it can be a powerful De-buff to Strength/Melee based critters. Even if they save they take half of the empowered Version.
Race Half-Elf-Alternative Racial Traits: Arcane Training
20 point buy: Str: 8, Dex: 14, Con: 13, Int: 20, Wis: 11, Cha: 7
(level ups +1 to Con and Wis for better saves and +2 into Intel)
(Put your Physical Enhancement in Con and save money on the Belt of Health.)
Class: Wizard 10/ Lore Master 7
Favored Class Bonus: +3 HP, +4 Elf-Favored Class for Prescience or Versatile Evocation (you only get 1 pick your favorite), +3 Anything Human Wizard Favored is good +1 spell in book.
Feats:
1-Improved Initiative
1-Scribe Scroll
1-Skill Focus- Knowledge Arcana or Planes (you pick)
3-Spell Focus- Transmutation
5-Greater Spell Focus- Transmutation
5-Wizard Bonus- A +1 Meta-magic (Extend is a Good choice)
7-Improved Familiar- Mephit, Imp, Or Custom Job!
9-Spell Penetration
10-Wizard Bonus- Persistent Spell
11- Meta-Magic Here! (Empower is good)
11-1st Lore Master Secret-The lore of true stamina: +2 Fort Saves
13-Quicken Spell
13-2nd Lore Master Secret-Secret Knowledge of Avoidance or Secret health
15-Spell Perfection
15-3rd Lore Master Secret- Applicable Knowledge: Any 1 feat
17-
17-4th Lore Master Secret-Secrets of inner strength: +2 Will Saves
Skills of mention:
Max- Spellcraft, Know Arcane and Planes, UMD*(see traits)
Pick up a few points in: fly, linguistics, Know History and Religion
So Why a Half-Elf Loremaster? First and Foremost the Saves. Saves in this Adventure Path lean on the Brutal side. And there will come many times you will be rolling them. Not to mention the Lore-master secrets are basically feats in themselves. You end up with more "feats" this way your feats will just be focused on surviving. I find it hard to fit survival feats into a build but this PrC makes it happen. Another big reason for Half-Elf is Paragon Surge. It is a free feat in itself. Give yourself Greater Spell Penetration with it and an extra +2 to Dex and your looking at 4 more feats then straight Wizard. 1 of those feats can be changed by casting a spell.
Lastly some Build advice for the rest of your party:
Have them ask your DM about the feat- Big Game Hunter. It was designed for this Campaign. Make sure your melee guys take it. It will work on 80% of the critters you fight from level 8-17.
Make sure they boost their lowest saves the best they can. Fort and Will saves are EXTREMELY important in this AP. Reflex saves typically target HP anyways so you could get by with Bigger HP pools if you prefer instead of upping reflex saves.
Critters hit SUPER hard this campaign. Do not offer them the a Full attack against you if you can help it. Kill them quickly and try to avoid the Full attack on you.
Suppliment your AC with other forms of Mitigation as well. Potions of Blur, Displacement, Stone Skin....AC is nice but Things in this Campaign will be able to hit very high ACs so just stacking AC will not be enough.
Have a way to Overcome DR adamantine.
Carry 1 Potion of Remove Blindness at the start of Book 3 to end game.
Tell your melee to all buy 1 pearl of power 3rd level for their own daily casting of Greater magic weapon. Will allow them to have good weapons all the way through the campaign without wasting too much gold on weapons.
Look for a Knight's Pennon of Battle to give you heroism 1/day to help your saves as they are super important. Also could spring for a Wand of Good hope as a group instead of individuals buying Pennons.
Get your DCs as high as you can.
You will come across Spell Resistance so at least work in Spell Pen if you are targeting creatures.
You won't have time for Crafting anything bigger then Potions or Scrolls so don't waste your time in this Campaign on crafting. I know a Wizards power comes from crafting as well but your just going to have to do without.
Share your spell books and do not take overlapping spells. if you have 2 wizards then make sure your Level up spells are not the same so you can share and have a bigger spell selection.
Getting a few pearls of Power 3 can go a long way when passing out Greater magic weapon buff to your melee.
A group investment of a wand of Haste and/or Good Hope can go a long way.
Based on party comp I suggest support cleric or murder archer Inquisitor.
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Having played through RotRL, I can say that your party will probably regret not having brought along a full-progression divine caster. Any Cleric, most Oracles, or even Inquisitor would help tremendously.
It seems like you don't really even have someone capable of activating mid-level divine scrolls effectively. That could become a real problem at some point, as is probably also true in most APs.
Your Transmuter Wizard sounds awesome and Mischief/Nearyn are right that it will be especially fun in this campaign. I recommend you have a backup character concept if you plan on participating in melee for more than a couple of books.
There are plenty of ways to make a Transmuter Wizard. I suggest being flexible and not investing too heavily into the 'buff up and wade into melee' strategy.
Have fun!
To give you one data point, my group finished Rise a couple months ago and they were level 15 when it ended, about halfway to 16, on fast progression with five PCs.
That's with a GM who isn't much into sidetracking, and a group that didn't sidetrack much either. I'm sure you could easily be 16 when you reach the end, and maybe 17 if you really dug into the corners?
Wizards, bards and clerics have some especially good opportunities to interact with the story, if you care about that.
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I'm going by the Progression Chart in the AP itself. In the AP it says the PCs should reach 17th level as you begin exploring part X. not going to drop names...but some groups will differ if they do not complete everything or they have more people. my group runs 4 man groups and no longer care about keeping a running EXP total and just follow the level advancement track inside the APs.
thank you all for advices!
Thank you Fruian for the build ! :3 it seems really pretty!
you wrote down two builds... which shall i take?
Loremaster loose something to do what he do?
EDIT: it seems i cannot take divination as opposite school.. loremaster need 7 spells of divination that you can cast ..
I'm in a bit of a dilemma myself for this AP. We had some party upheaval and it appears as though we will now have a dwarf melee ranger (shield bash type), an evangelist reach/summon cleric, a battle oracle and myself on either a Sylvanite special (Wizard/fighter/EK/AA archer) or on an evocation specialized diviner (with crossblooded dip for higher damage) built around god wizard memorization with spontaneous dazing fireballs as backup.
I feel the total lack of party range is going to hurt, so I'm leaning heavily on the idea of the EK archer, but I worry ending up 3 levels behind on casting will hurt too much.
I will say, I feel pretty good about precasting truestrike and opening up with anti-magic shell/imbue arrow in later levels on casters. I feel like that might make up for all the lost caster levels.
We really need a wizard, so that's mandatory, but the archer is also a concern due to total lack of range damage outside of wizard capabilities.
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EDIT: it seems i cannot take divination as opposite school.. loremaster need 7 spells of divination that you can cast ..
Having just 7 Divination spells in your spell book will work. You just have to be able to cast them if it came down to it. Not that it has to be prepared every day.
The pre-req can be covered by mostly 0-1 level spells in your spell book but you will need one 3rd level divination in your spell.