About Rise of the Runelords


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The lack of a full divine caster might be annoying, but it's definitely not an issue in the long-term. At low levels, you will have to rely on spellcasting services to achieve things like restoration, but by level 10 you should either be making use of Leadership or your own UMD skills to activate scrolls of needed spells.

At high levels, limited wish will achieve all the things that a cleric could bring, with the exception of high-level healing; that will still need to be supplemented with scrolls, or with one of you using a cleric cohort.

@Fruian: do i lose something if i go with Loremaster ?

Orthodox Banjoist wrote:
thank you :) maybe if you could also advice on which school opposite :) race or whatever it'll be fun!!

I played a Conjurer with Necro and Enchant as my opposite school in ROTRL and did very well.

I agree with above, DON'T multi-class as the endgame needs high lvl spell casters with high lvl spells. (That's YOU BTW)

We had a cleric that had to stay focused on healing, but only due to the barbarian being a poor build with crappy feat selections. (Scattered and without any kind of goal in mind)

A couple of smart players and you can probably get by with moderate healing.

Personally I would never transmute myself or a familiar for front line work... Summon and poly them if need be. You and your familiar are much to valuable for the grunt work.

I took bonded object, but knowing my GM, he never ( or rarely ) would sunder or steal objects from players (in combat).. Just not tactics he uses often. Of course I also worked very hard to ensure I was never actually in melee range as well.

Good luck I found it to be a very enjoyable AP.

Clectabled wrote:
DON'T multi-class as the endgame needs high lvl spell casters with high lvl spells. (That's YOU BTW)

Not fully clear on why that is. I've been told different things by different people, but no one has yet told me an EK archer/wizard who is 2-3 levels behind a straight wizard wouldnt fit the bill.

Grand Lodge

The only thing you loose as a lore master is you transmutation powers stop growing at 10. Do you loose very little. You also miss you lvl 15 wizard bonus feat but since your gaining 4 secrets its not really a loss but an upgrade.

okk really thank you!!!!

about the subschool, Enhanchement is worth it?

I have a Paladin Hosplitar in that AP 12th level I am the healer and I do just fine. Not only that. I am main tank as well.

Grand Lodge

not really but if you like it.

thanks again Fruian :)!

Orthodox Banjoist wrote:

EDIT: it seems i cannot take divination as opposite school.. loremaster need 7 spells of divination that you can cast ..

In pathfinder you don't lose access to the spells of a school you pick as your opposition, it just makes it so preparing 1 takes up 2 slot and you get -4 on craft checks on magic items that require spells of that school.

...Unless you are a Thassilonion specialist, in which case you can't even pick your opposed schools and you can't use any spells from them.

thank you shadowkire for the explanation!

@Fruian: i suppose the Enhanchement power "Perfection of Self" doesn't stack with Headband of intelligence, nor fox's cunning... am i right?


It's only to physical stats, so it would not apply to Int/Wis/Cha.

It's an enhancement bonus, so it would not stack with any of the magic items that give an enhancement bonus.

Grand Lodge

what lastoth said..but if can save you some $$ on not needing a stat belt.

But it will use the highest bonus possible. But if you go Loremaster you "wizard" level stop at 10 so those School powers won't level anymore. Big whoop as they are good but not THAT good.

i think you're wrong_: "Perfection of Self (Su): At 8th level, as a swift action you can grant yourself an enhancement bonus to a single ability score equal to 1/2 your wizard level (maximum +10) for one round. You may use this ability for a number of times per day equal to your wizard level."

it doesn't say to a phisical score...

so okk it's pretty not useful for me :)

(yes i'm going Loremaster... i found your build very pretty!)

Grand Lodge

Sweet Loremaster is a strong Build.

Let also mention as a side note to you the player.
When shopping and you have a few extra 500gp and don't ever want to take greater spell penetration then this item: Dweomer's Essence-This item gives +5 to overcome spell resistance. I hardly take Greater spell Pen and just get a few of these to add to my casting if I really need it to stick and I think the SR is too high. Tho I can't remember SR being higher then a 25ish when there was spell resistance. Some campaigns require Greater but I think you might be OK with just spell Pen and a few Dweomer's essences for Key BBEGs.

thank you very much for the help|!|

here comes one more question: Bonded Item or Familiar? Which?

Depends on how far you trust your GM. Evil ones enjoy having monsters eat familiars.

my DM never try to eat familiar or sunder items (personally i think DM want to create a story...not try to kill every PC...)

We're currently about halfway through the AP and I'm playing an elven Teleportation Specialist and loving it.

Some points, based on personal experience, addressing your questions-

Arcane Bond: If you've got a GM like mine who isn't going to meta-game voodoo knowledge of your arcane bonded object then I would suggest choosing that. I went with a ring; it can be concealed with a glove and enchanted later with some goodness without having to take the Craft Ring feat. Namely Counterspells, Feather-falling, etc.

Having that any one spell per day has really been a life saver, particularly later in the campaign when surprises are thrown at you that you couldn't possibly have predicted in the morning when you were studying.

Specialty: Well... my DM allowed the Dimensional Agility feat so I went with Conjuration. I cannot have asked for a sweeter setup. I can move, cast, swift move back. Or Swift move + summon. Later you get the ability to move allies so you can move to an ally by foot, standard action dimensionally move them to a flanking position with another ally and then swift move teleport back to safety. LOVE this setup. It's gotten myself and friends out of very dangerous situations/grapples/flanks. Of course if you're set on Transmutation I would think that would work well too. As others have noted it certainly would fit well thematically and offer some nice RP options to you.

Opposed Schools: as noted above you don't actually bar yourself from casting from those schools (it just requires 2 slots instead of 1) so don't worry about qualifying for prestige classes. I chose to bar Necromancy and Evocation. Evocation was a tough choice initially but we have a sorc blaster in the party and I had planned on taking Opposed School Research to get this back at lvl 9.

Why Evocation and not Enchantment? At low levels Enchantment is actually quite good. Will saves are a very good target and I used Charms successfully a couple of times to gather information from both humans and 'other' things. Also, well, it fit with the character's portfolio...

I got Evocation back at 9th to get access to various nice control spells; walls, etc and add a bit of punch to my offensive capabilities if required.

Also, there's a fantastic RotR trait available from the APG called Outlander: Lore Seeker. If you cast arcane spells, pick three spells on your spell list. You are particularly adept at casting these spells, so they function at +1 caster level when you cast them, and their save DCs (if any) gain a +1 bonus.

I popped this on to Charm Person, Stumble Gap and Grease. The boost to Charm Person really helped in the lower levels but the Grease boost is just a gift that keeps on giving. I'm chucking out DC 20 Grease spells (Trait + SF:C + GSF:C) on enemy weapons now and it makes me giddy when I see those weapons fall to the floor. At 12th lvl that should be 22.

I think regardless of the choices you make you're going to enjoy the adventure. I would poke the Dm to see just how much you learn about the history before you embark as well as you may both enjoy the fact you could potentially be a scholar on Thassilonian lore. That was the case with us and it allowed the DM to use me as a means of sharing certain historical viewpoints, although in my case from a skewed, anti-human, elven point of view lol.

Hmmm a couple of Transmutation spells to tie in with Outlander: Lore Seeker to really get the most out of that boost while still maintaining some longevity for later levels:

Forced Quiet: will save to make the target unable to yell or make loud noises. Seems very situational but remember if you're using Arcane Bond this is exactly the kind of spell you might use it for if it's going to prevent X from alerting his gang around the corner.

Animate Rope: Reflex save to apply the entangled condition. Not so much longevity really, but possibly quite useful early game.

Grand Lodge

Lore seeker only works for spells currently on your list. So if taken 1st level only 1st level spells. It is actually pretty bad unless taken at later levels and then you can only have 1 Campaign trait.

I Like the familiar as the extra action economy blows the +1 spell clean out the water at later levels.

Enchantment is a crappy school all around and specialized Sorcerers do it better. Charm person is not that important when your group already has a face-y type. Taking the extra feat Opposition research can get a school back but with divination being put on scrolls and Enchantment being darn near useless I feel Opposition research would be wasting a feat.

Everyone under the sun Knows Conjuration-teleporation is the best school hands down. Tons of people play Conjurers because they are easy and they typically always work. Unless your DM wants to just screw you and everything you fight has Protection from X against you.

I doubt Orthodox Banjoist will have a problem with his DM targeting his Familiar and even if it was targeted it means NOTHING. It can Die and no sweat off your back just make another one. You loose your bonded object your shut down. And Like I said the extra mini wizard with a wand is so much more effective. You can give your Familiar a wand of Dimension DOor and have him set the field up by D-dooring your guys into position. Or he can Unleash offensive spells.

thanks all for the advices... yes Fruian is right.. i've not a Killer-DM, he want that everyone have fun in the AP, so he will not kill my familiar on pourpose :)

i will get the familiar... now comes the question: Which should i pick?

Grand Lodge

Monkey can start using Wands level 1 with your UMD skill.

Green-sting Scorpion gives +4 initiative and is ranked one of the best to help you go first. It can't UMD till you upgrade at 7. Not a big deal wands can be expensive.

A raven is great for scouting open area's as he can talk and tell you whats up. He can also Be used for Caltrop patrol and drop caltrops to cut off charges towards you or other group members.

Pterosaur, Rhamphorhynchus A.K.A the swoop lizard gives you +2 initiative and Has the Sudden Swoop ability making it the Perfect low level touch spell delivery Familiar. By and By is my favorite as it gives Initiative bonus and can fly. Not to mention when you take Improved familiar you loose the -2 to initiative and it is not missed nearly as much as the +4 initiative.

As for Improved Familiar:

You can custom job your familiar. Look up those rules if you like. I have been just re-skinning the IMP to good characters as Hands down the IMP is the number 1 familiar.

Mephits are good for neutral characters. Dust mephits have both Blur and Windwall as SLA. Both are amazing spells you will not need to repair. He also has fast healing in dusty environments.

Faerie Dragon is a nice flyer and can UMD well. Has decent SLAs.

Like I said IMP is darn near perfect.

Defiantly look at the list for yourself.

you can custom your familiar?

i know, i like Imp, but i think i must be evil, or am i wrong?

The monkey could be very fun for roleplay XD

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
The only thing you loose as a lore master is you transmutation powers stop growing at 10. Do you loose very little. You also miss you lvl 15 wizard bonus feat but since your gaining 4 secrets its not really a loss but an upgrade.

You also lose out on your two freebie spells each level for your spellbook; continued casting progression doesn't continue your spellbook.

That having been said, you likely won't find that to be much a hindrance in Rise.

Grand Lodge

You can be LN and still get an imp.

Yes you can customize your familiar....everything about it.

As a player, you may desire a special familiar—either real, unique to your campaign world, or wholly imagined—that hasn't yet been presented with specific stats. With your Gamemaster's approval, however, it's easy to “re-skin” an existing familiar stat block to create the exact familiar you want.

Familiar rules

Grand Lodge

What Ryric said you won't find it a problem in Rise of the Runelords as you will fight a lot of casters who have spell books for you and the other party wizard to pass around.

Also I mentioned in another I myself would play a Lawful Evil Transmuter in rise of the Runelords. The LE on your Character sheet will mean very little to you or your party and would probably never come up. You would have to hide your IMP from your Paladin but since he can beast shape and go Invisible all you really have to do is keep your familiar from being in-front of the paladin while he uses Detect evil...and most paladin stop using Detect evil once everything they come across is evil. Also if the paladin can't make spellcraft checks then he doesn't know what spells are considered "evil" at least by game play rules and not throwing in meta-gaming knowledge.

thanks again for the advices!

the problem with the paladin, and the party, is meta-game... they all do it, some more, some less... but they do!

Grand Lodge

I would Enforce them not Meta gaming against you. Call them out on it. Don't even mention your evil at all. Don't mention your familiar and what it is...let them do the Perception check...the Knowledge Checks, and the spell craft checks to determine what you are.

Not to mention again: Detect evil does not work on a evil wizard. there is no glow or evil aura. He will look at you and see nothing glow. Your playing LE so you will be fine keeping law and Order...your goals are just selfish and not for the good of humanity. You don't have to do even 1 true evil act. You can act LN for the most part. Come your familiar you can always do a mephit or something if he really wants to be a turd and meta game.

How to Play Smart Evil:
Evil gets some really cool spells...some of the best actually. You could cast them if you want and if they can't pass the spellcraft no one know what your casting in game tho you say it outloud to the DM or players. The DM can tell the group the effects of your spell. Your other Wizard might try to spellcraft but if you have 2 spell books he will think he knows and just let it go. Share all your non-evil spells with him and keep a 2nd book with your limited Evil spells. He won't even know your secret. I like keeping secrets...it makes the game fun and also adds a extra difficulty to your character.

If you really want to tick your group off: Start passing notes of your turn/actions to your DM. or any privet conversations with other players. Say limited things outloud. It will also show importance of skills and Knowledge to your group. I have started doing it when I don't want a group to know what my overall plans are. It works and it really puts a stop to Meta-Gaming and allows your DM to spot Meta-gaming more easily.

I also recommend you doing all spellcraft checks to identify all items via note card with your DM or allow him to slide you a loot list. Then "share" what YOUR character knows about them if it suits you to do so. Yeah you don't need the magic weapons and armors so give them up like candy...but you don't have to tell them what this evil item is...you can even lie about it or say it does what it does but not mention it's an evil item. Or the paladin may want to rob you and destroy all the evil objects that can really aid the party.
(I've dealt with my fair share of the Lawful Stupid Paladins)

3rd some of the drops can be used better by evil characters. Instead of being sold for Half price. The items also can not be identified by someone without a awesome spell craft and general knowledge of the Arcane. Yeah preparing Detect magic is going to limit your cantrips but they are cantrips anyways.

The only problem with that Fruian is if they do catch on to his character's alignment he and the paladin player will have to decide who stays and who goes.

Grand Lodge

or get over your indifference to rid the world of a greater evil.

There are always more options then Kill each other. Perhaps the Paladin having forming a bond with this wizard takes it upon himself to try and turn him from his ways. As long as you are being lawful there is no need for apprehension by law. Then it comes down to do you kill this person because he is just selfish and has evil thoughts.

But what I am saying is IF he is found out....typically INT and WIS are both Paladin dump stats. And he has broke no laws. Then really the paladin can't do a damn thing to him. Its not the same as a demon or Undead types of evil where they are inherently evil to the core near impossible to redeem.

Actually being found out at later levels would offer interesting role play. Just have the DM prior to campaign lay down the no PvP rule. Just to keep things from getting nasty.

I agree, that would be fun but it relies on 2 things:
1) The Paladin player being more 3 dimensional than "kill evil on sight."

2) The DM accepting that a Paladin can work with an evil character against a much more evil character without losing his powers.

I do think it creates interesting role play, but with the number of "Paladin falls because X" threads show that this subject can be very controversial.

@Orthodox Banjoist:
If you do want to try being LE, speak with your DM in private about the possible conflicts with the Paladin before making your choice final.

Grand Lodge

Yes I agree 100% on that. Discuss with your GM...he might like it. Also explain it really isn't going to effect your behavior either. You will abide by laws and not actively seek to prove your evil like a NE or CE character does. Its also another reason to lay down the No PvP prior so if the paladin is 2 dimensional as kill everything evil regardless and force everyone to abide by your sense of Honor and Justice. (everyone hates that type of paladin.)

No PvP will force the role play when your discovered as evil. It will force the paladin to think about what to do as well as allow you to sway him with your words. I personally like screwing with paladin players not to make them fall just like putting them in questionable situations where they have to make difficult choices beyond Smite it.

You can always bond with the paladin over your love of laws, rules, and statutes.

I think the lyrakien is as good as or better than the imp because they have a high cha, and if you are putting ranks into UMD, they can use them. Also, I personally like their spells and powers more. I can see the imp as being a better choice to polymorph though.

Also, detect evil will pick up a wizard starting at level 5.


Grand Lodge

Typically a wizard stands behind a paladin anyways so he will never be in sight of the paladin when using this ability. And by level 5 hopefully he figures out most stuff is evil and wasting time to gauge it sometimes is a terrible Idea to waste your time doing while it is eating your group.

Not saying it's an issue. It's just detectable at level 5. It's a cone so all you have to do is "I go over and check that wall behind the paladin for traps!" every time he whips his detect evil out and starts swinging it around.

Liberty's Edge

I have played with Paladins who forget they have the detect evil ability and other who detect evil on their breakfast cereal … always … and tree’s, that shrubbery there looks suspicious while that horse is looking at me funny.

It is better to limit strife in the party by not playing an evil character when you know there is a Paladin in the group. Some people will consider this a foolish move on your part as the paladin could have issue with adventuring with you and you already know there is one of those goody two shoes in the group.

Personally I would re-skin an imp making it fit with your alignment so you can concentrate on killing the bad guys; many groups have fallen out due to inter party conflicts and you never know if the paladin is smite first and ask questions later type or not. The character you have spent hours getting just right and leveled up to 5th level could find itself on the pointy end of a smite evil and finding amusement in the contents of your chest cavity.

Inter party conflict will happen; building a char you know will cause it just makes it worse. RotRL’s can be difficult enough without it.



Grand Lodge

If its a super newbie paladin then he will forget all about it lol

Horizon Hunters

Mischief Mondragon wrote:
@Nearyn Highly appropriate avatar.

I was thinking the same thing!

Grand Lodge

Again have a 0 PvP policy can fix half the problems.

- PvP is okay in my party
- My DM will agree on playing Evil Characters (without paladin lost his powers)
- I can also get an item to avoid paladin detection (for free u.u)

Grand Lodge

Nice...I'd totally go with it then. Just play like your LN and you would be fine with your item. If he finds out late game then you would have an upper hand.

yeah nice idea Fruian!

now i'm in trouble with the Background.. is the first half-elf for me... i've been always playing gnomes... with funny backgrounds... i don't even know how to make one "serious" XD!

This thread too has gone to paladin posturing?

Okay - just have to say, Runelords is *not* a Killer AP. It does have a few tough spots, and there's loads of creatures that are deadly, but it's not out to get you.

most of the time

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