About Rise of the Runelords


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Lastoth not my fault if everyone play a paladin, play it as a stupid who want all people be legal and good...

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I would like to try to stop this from becoming a Paladin thread, if it can be helped. In general it is a very poor idea to have characters more than 2 steps away from each other if you are going for party harmony. While the good vs. evil conflicts might garner more attention the law vs. chaos arguments are worse. Arguing for the correctness of evil as a philosophy is insane. The philosophy of "I matter, you don't" stops being acceptable around age 5. Law and chaos are another matter entirely as both the rights of the many and the individual are important to non-evil people. Real life arguments about politics and religion start that way, and not much kills a game quicker than that.

You and the paladin player talking it out and deciding to play compatible characters without anyone else involved may be ideal. Getting the GM involved may be necessary. Playing a secret evil character against the wishes of the Paladin player is very passive aggressive and not good for group cohesion.

I definitely didn't feel like Runelords was a "killer" AP.
I found most of the encounters to be too easy and poorly constructed at times. I'm in wrath of the righteous now and I feel like the fights are much better constructed and challenging (though I hear that starts to fade away at higher mythic tiers as well).

An Enchanter will do very very well in that campaign. I played an Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer specialized in enchanting and the majority of our fights turned into roleplay because I'd charm the villians and we'd talk to them...there were not very many instances this didn't just end the threats outright and changed alot of the metaplot due to villians becoming allies that wouldn't have normally been so.

Enchanters sometimes lose alot of steam at high levels (as many enemies gain immunity to mind effecting), but you can always just respec your Spell Focus feats and some of your spells at higher levels.
Negative Energy combat is probably the most powerful high level caster option, with Thanatopic Spell feat in the game now, Finger of Death and Enervation pretty much wreck everything.

On the other note about Paladins, having a Paladin in the party doesn't necessarily require you to play by their rules, it just requires you to be sneaky about it. My sorcerer wasn't a good guy, but he had a really really high bluff score and knew how to keep his shady business out of the view of the Paladin of Thorag in the party. Eventually the two became best friends, though the Paladin never found out about how terrible my sorcerer really was.

Grand Lodge

My Question is Why the hell should anyone respect a paladin player who shanghais the Alignment of the entire party because they are terrible players who forces everyone to uphold there sense of "Honor."

Its not really fair for someone to say I'm playing a paladin thus everyone else at the table Has to be good to get along with me or I will kill them and smite them to death. I don't feel that is fair.

I would like to try to stop this from becoming a Paladin thread, if it can be helped. In general it is a very poor idea to have characters more than 2 steps away from each other if you are going for party harmony.

Great way to stop it from becoming a Paladin thread by jumping head first into the argument. I've also argued with a Lawful stupid Paladin on a Neutral Good Cleric. So being 1-2 steps sometimes doesn't even make a difference.

Basically I don't feel the Paladin player should dictate how the entire group behaves or what they choose to do. Its selfish to limit the other gamers because your being a dill hole who can only play a 2-d paladin that know how to smite and how to force your beliefs on everyone else.

The philosophy of "I matter, you don't" stops being acceptable around age 5

That is your opinion but not a reality. I matter, and you don't is how most the real world works and views life. That is the Philosophy of every alignment but Good. Not to mention that is the exact thinking a paladin takes. My Honor and code is right and yours needs to match mine or I'm going to get you. That is just as selfish as someone who looks out for themselves.

With the OP's DM offering a free item to hide Their alignment I would just chill and enjoy the ride. I know why your DM will allow it as I have Read the AP. I'm sure your DM is excited to see how it goes. The book does offer more Roleplay, story, and more unique experiences to a wizard and other evil characters in the group. Just remove the paladin ability to meta game how I told you and cling to your Hide alignment Item your DM gives you. Hell build a strong bond with the paladin so if he finds out your evil then he will have a harder decision then to just fight you. (depends on the level but higher levels you win that fight if it comes)

Basically what I am saying is don't let the Paladin Bogart everyone's fun because he is a terrible player.

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@Fruian Thistlefoot

The fact that people operate on the basis of I matter more than others because I am me is not in dispute. I agree with you here 100%. What I am trying to say is that saying "I matter, you don't" to other people provokes hostility rather than agreement. Nobody likes being told that they don't matter. The philosophy of evil is not universally applicable, it is by nature very individual. This is why you don't have people running around doing the most evil stuff possible "for the greater evil" without being considered insane by everyone else.

As to Paladin players trying to hijack the alignment of the other players I agree. I hate that too. I was trying to suggest to the OP that if they want to be evil and another player wants to be good the two of them should talk about it and try to agree to both go one way or the other so everyone has more fun and doesn't spend half the game plotting against the other party members.

Grand Lodge

Part of why I just lay down a no PvP rule. Stops the whole thing from getting ugly.

thanks, as always, for the advices... i'll start playing LN, and let my PC and the AP guide me to my Alignment in the story :D

do you have any advice about which spells to take?

Well, enlarge person will make the paladin really like you regardless of your alignment.

Grand Lodge

I'm really not certain why everyone is saying this is a Player Killer-AP - if that's what people are really saying.

I DM'ed this in its entirety. I gave my group's encounters full hp. I even made some of the harder monsters double-hp and mythic. I gave some of the crazier ones action points and used them. I only killed one character ever and it was the second to last session when all they had to do was expend some resources to resurrect him.

I will say, possibly the thing that did the most 'damage' to the campaign was the Tetori. Grappling nearly trivialized most encounters. As for 'big guys with x3 weapons and reach' I am not sure about that. Any group worth its salt can deal with a few large creatures at a time with terrain, tactics, and magic.

If you have an ineffective group though in both combat and roleplay, it might be a little rough. The 1d2-1 damage small monk throwing shurikens might be a bad idea. You probably just want to make sure at least 1-2 of your players are optimized for damage so you can drop encounters as fast as you can - being that you have no heals and all.

In fact, a grease spell for your wizard will make those x3 critical hit weapons into x2 critical punches pretty reliably.

@Bfobar yes good idea :) enlarge person and grease are both good spells :), thank you

@Silas Ruin i don't know for now... we'll start this AP fryday, and i will write what i think about :D

Grand Lodge

Some of My favorite spells and Some good solid Choices. You get 1 per level plus 1 from your specialized school. Again talk over your spells learned each level with the Other Wizard and be able to get 4 spells a Level to spread between the 2 of you.

All the touch spells can be delivered by spell storing weapons if your group invests in any of them. They can also be delivered by your familiar or the spell Spectral Hand. You can also get a rod of Reach spell and deliver them at a close range. When I play a wizard I tell at least 1 person to grab a spell storing weapon. Giving them Vampiric touch is strong for a front liner.

0 -Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Touch of Fatigue, Jolt/Acid splash/Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Light, Dancing Lights,

(work on getting all divination spells in your Spell book starting at lowest possible Level for your Loremaster Pre-reqs..the lower the level the cheaper the spell to put into your book.)

1st level goodies- Enlarge person, Grease, Color Spray (first 4-5 levels), Protection From Evil, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Blood Money (later levels when it wont kill you.), Snapdragon Fireworks, Touch of Gracelessness, Obscuring Mist, silent Image

2nd Level- Mirror Image, Glitter Dust, Resist Energy, Web, Scorching/admonishing Ray or Flaming Sphere, Frigid Touch, Create Pit, Blindness/deafness, False Life, Animal Buffs (Bulls Strength ext ext),

3rd Level- Dispel Magic (must Have), Paragon Surge (must have for all half-elfs), Aqueous Orb, Stinking Cloud, Fireball, Invisibility sphere, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Fly, Haste, Slow, Gaseous Form, Greater Magic Weapon, Resinous Skin (cheapskates Stone Skin..will do till Stone skin Communal), Summon monster 3

4th- Ward Shield, Summon monster 4, Black tentacles, Dimension Door, Fleshworm Infestation, Wall of Fire, Bestow Curse, Enervation (Awesome spell), Calcific Touch, Mnemonic Enhancer, Fear,

5th- Stone Skin Communal (Cheaper then stoneskin ask for donations), Life Bubble, Cloudkill, Teleport, Summon monster 5, Wall of force, cone of Cold, Waves of fatigue, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Telekinesis, Permanency, Icy Prison

6th- Greater Dispel Magic, Summon monster 6, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Sirocco, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Form of the Dragon+ Transformation(=Awesome Familiar front Liner)

7th- Form of the Dragon 2, Spell Turning, Summon monster, Grasping Hand, Prismatic Spray, Force Cage, Finger of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, Reverse Gravity, Greater Polymorph, Limited Wish

8th- Prismatic Wall, Maze, Summon Monster 8, Clenched Fist, Polar Ray, Clone, Horrid Wilting, Form of the dragon 3, Polymorph any object,

9th- Imprisonment, Time Stop (best choice), Mage's Disjunction (dangerous), Gate, Crushing Hand, Energy Drain, Wish, Shape-change

thank you Fruian!!

when you have time to do it, i would same suggetion (spells choice) for an illusionist :) it will be really good!

Grand Lodge

well A majority of those spells would be good on a illusionist or any wizard's list. Inscribing spells is expensive for a wizard. And learning spells outside your level up is really expensive. Luckily you will find a lot of spells to learn. Just the first 2 books will be kinda bust for finding spells outside of scrolls. SO really focus on first 6 levels trading spells and not overlapping on learning at the level up.

Since y'll can share spells on each level up I suggest y'll take the best of the choices I listed. I can add a few more for his list specifically...Shadow Conjuration/evocation is a AWESOME spell off the top of my head. I'll think about it for a bit and let you know a few more I come up with.

thank you Fruian! Your help is nice!

i definitely don't remember: what schools should i take for opposite? Divination and ?

i was reading about arcane schools.. it seems that will be very hard to cast opposite spells.. and this is ok.. but it seems also that i don't really have cantrips of opposite schools in my wizard book...i must use levelling to know my cantrips of divination O.O

Orthodox Banjoist wrote:
i definitely don't remember: what schools should i take for opposite? Divination and ?

I'd suggest Illusion and Enchantment actually.

You can learn the cantrips from another wizard's spellbook (5gp each to scribe). They do take 2 spell slots to memorize - if you have a great need for a spell, this isn't that bad.

bfobar wrote:
Also, detect evil will pick up a wizard starting at level 5.

Stop oppressing my culture!

I don't know... it could become a running gag.

Grand Lodge

Lol stop oppressing my culture. I suggested divination and enchantment. I tend to hate both schools and 1-3 level spells are cheap to scribe in. There is also opposition research.

thanks for the advices... i finally choosed Enchantement/Evocation accordling to the Professor's guide to the wizard, and also because i never use doing damage with spells :)

Grand Lodge

Hey it works. I cant think of a situation where a fireball solves a problem in this AP.

so good :D thank you fruian!

Shadow Lodge

When we played this, it was 4 sessions of 3.5 and around 30 sessions of PF. I think APG was released around session 21 or so.

Anyhow, it is not a very difficult campaign, being written for 3.5. I haven't seen the updated Anniversary edition version, but I reckon if my sorry ass of newbie player managed back in 2008-2010, you'll as well.

We never had a proper arcanist with us. Our scout/transmuter did a lot of damage with skirmish abilities and wands of enervation though. The only real full caster was a druid, who mostly buffed and cast damage spells. I worry about your healing though. We took a lot of damage, so much indeed that my second character was a channeler cleric. You'll see how it goes.

I still remember carrying our barbarian's burned corpse all the way to Janderhoff. Man, Hook Mountain really was a Massacre.

As Treatmonk say: preventing damage is more efficient than healing damage

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