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I love the imagery of a slingstaff and my local gm allows warslinger to work with it. What I am asking for help though is optimizing it. I see 3 main ways to do this, all of which require some somewhat of a switch hitter build. 1. Fighter (lots of feats allow you to take combat patrol, 2hw feats, and ranged feats). 2. Ranger (archery combat style let's you focus on str and if you go woodland skirmisher you can even cast shillelagh on it). 3. Wood Oracle (no bonus feats but lvl 9 spells and "full" Bab equivalent attacks).
I think I have built a pretty solid ranger but I am struggling mostly to build the wood oracle and fighter. Help me build these options up and please add any others that you can think of.
I share the love my friend but lack the knowledge to help you.
I've heard its a sub-optimal weapon; but I love that it can be used ranged as well as in melee (it doubles as a small club).
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Right. I just dream of an awesome lacrosse playing halfling. I mean you don't need the feats which allow you not to provoke because if you are close you just wallop them as a club 2hded. You can use 2hded thrower with it and you only need 1 set of enhancements. Feats that add to its damage and accuracy are applied to both melee and ranged. It's just soo cool. But I can't figure out the best way to make it work. :-(. I am leaning towards ranged wood oracle + power attack and using spells to boost melee power.
Like Hamsteria above I have the love but lack the skills. A couple campaigns ago I built a gestalt ranger/cavalier halfling. He rode a wolf named Blitzer. The idea was to use the wolf to handle all movement while slinging from range, then against single tough foes to holster the slingstaff, draw a lance and charge to get close. Once in place follow up with the slingstaff to either aid another and give the wolf strong to hits or to 2h the club and wail.
The issue I was running into was as a Small PC with a reduced Str due to race I wasn't doing that much damage. The build I had eventually went down the Vital Strike path with me figuring I could keep accuracy, hit fewer targets, but still contribute well long-term. I never did a build based on a spellcaster. I wonder if a Magus would help here?
Well the one advantage that has made slings to widespread is that they are simple to make and easy to hide. This extents to the sling staff.
However in a typical Pathfinder setting where you can pretty much access any weapon this advantage is kinda moot. Otherwise having access to your ranged weapon at all times (use it as belt or as headband) would be a cool feature in itself.
But as you I love the sling / slingstaff and have time and time again tried to make a cool build with it. Sadly many of the cool ranged feats are worded for Bows/Crossbows only.
....aaaand I can't find my notes :(
Short ideas:
You can use the slingstaff to fire alchemists fire and such as well. Useful at early levels.
Aasimaar can increase one revelation as favored class bonus. If you use that on the Wood Bond you could increase the bonus to +7 at the end.
In the case of Slingstaff I think the best thing would just work together with your GM to adapt feats, equipment and abilities.
Along the lines of K-dawg there if you're going to work with your GM here's something I proposed for my gestalt guy: ranged Combat Maneuvers. There were some feats like a ranged sunder in 3.5 that we used as templates. Basically we came up with Ranged Sunder, Ranged Trip, Ranged Disarm and Ranged Dirty Trick.
It was a cool thing to imagine: some tough ogres guardig a bridge with my halfling sitting on Blitzer 30' away. Suddenly a flick of the wrist and one's knee buckles and he topples into the drink. The other one grabs a polearm but as he does another bolt knocks the weapon out of his hand. Glance back to the halfling; he's still sitting cool as a cucumber with just a thong and a stick in his hand.
I think there was a 3.5 PRC that made slings really cool, and it was halfling only if I remember right. I just can't remember what is is, maybe see if you can find that.
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Might I suggest a Grenadier Alchemist?
They get a free martial weapon proficiency (and they're martial for halflings). Bombs and alchemical weapons are not reduced for size, and usually require touch attacks only. You can infuse slingstaff ammo with alchemical weapons for the far better slingstaff range, and they still count as a club so you've got a melee weapon at all times.
I can help with one of the builds, sort of...
Fighter (Unbreakable) 1/ Rogue (Sniper/Scout) 5/ Horizon Walker 3/ Rogue 11 is very strong.
The idea here is to get Terrain Dominance (Urban) and use that big bonus as a favored enemy bonus against things that live in buildings, streets and sewers. Other than Improved Initiative, Endurance and Diehard all of your feats should be Extra Rogue Talent: Terrain Mastery. All of your Rogue Talents should be Terrain Mastery. You should have 19 favored terrains by 20th level and your bonus in the Urban terrain should be +38. A +38 to hit and damage should take care of the problems of having a subpar weapon.
The slingstaff has been one of my favorite weapons for a long time.
I built a Halfling warslinger as a Fighter with Weapon Master archetype (starts weapon training at 3rd level). I balanced Dex and Str at 16 (str was 15 and bumped to 16 at level 4). Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc. all apply to both melee and ranged, so at 4th level, with no magic or buffs, she was doing +8/+8 for 1d6+6, which was pretty comparable to a medium-sized archer at that level. And she could do +10 for 1d4+6 in melee, without switching weapons, and she always threatened. She was a nice switch hitter, and I still curse the FAQ that killed her.
If she were still legal, I would consider multiclassing with Grenadier Alchemist, so I could throw bombs 80 ft. Two-handed Thrower sounds like an awesome feat for this build--I'll have to read up on that one.
Some general advice no matter what build you go with:
- The "staff" part is not clearly defined as to whether it's a light weapon or a one-handed weapon. Most GMs I've had read it as a light weapon, so you can't two-hand it for extra damage, but ask your GM on that.
- See what your GM thinks about TWF vs Rapid Shot. You can always use Rapid Shot to get 2 shots a round, but if your GM will allow you to use TWF with the staff, you can combine melee and ranged attacks in the same round. (Basically, it depends on whether your GM allows you to use the "sling" and the "staff" as 2 different weapons.)
- If so, see if your GM will let you combine TWF with Rapid Shot, to give you two shots a round and one whack with the stick (albeit at -4).
- As of Ultimate Equipment, slingstaff was in the "thrown" group, so you want Close Quarters Thrower instead of Point Blank Master.
- Check out the Halfling of Golarion book for special sling ammunition--all of them are pretty good, but the sharpstones are essential at lower levels (they let you switch from bludgeoning to piercing or slashing as a free action).
- Ask your GM about slinging similarly-shaped items, like thunderstones or tanglefoot bags.
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Why is the slingstaff controversial as to whether it is light or 1hded. it says that it is treated as a club. a club is a 1hded weapon. you can wield 1hded weapons in 2hds.
I really like the idea of grenadier. Do you think it outshines a wood oracle? I mean between shillelagh and divine power you are rocking some awesome damage starting at level one regardless of if you are melee or ranged. Would it maybe make sense to just build the sling-staffer like a regular martial character and tack on PBS and Rapid Shot?
Why is the slingstaff controversial as to whether it is light or 1hded. it says that it is treated as a club. a club is a 1hded weapon. you can wield 1hded weapons in 2hds.
Oops. Looks like I'm suffering from a case of versionitis. Sorry!
I really like the idea of grenadier. Do you think it outshines a wood oracle? I mean between shillelagh and divine power you are rocking some awesome damage starting at level one regardless of if you are melee or ranged. Would it maybe make sense to just build the sling-staffer like a regular martial character and tack on PBS and Rapid Shot?
I haven't investigated wood oracle--I'll see if I can take a look when I get home. I will say that size/weapon damage die bumps are not usually as effective for small characters. While a 1d8 medium weapon maps to 2d6 as a large weapon, a 1d8 small weapon maps to 1d10 as a medium weapon.
Point Blank Shot feels like a feat tax, but +1 untyped attack and damage is always a good thing to have. And usually a second ranged will do more damage than a single attack with bonuses. (For example, in my calculations, Rapid Shot does more damage than Deadly Aim.)
My GM decided that my Alchemist could throw his bombs with the sling staff. 80ft range really changed that class.
I've done some number crunching, focusing on maxing out the sling staff damage, and built the characters to 8th level (this is when oracle and warpriest hit BAB 6, so they all had the same number of attacks). Here are the stats I used:
Fighter: 16/18/12/10/10/10
Oracle: 14/16/14/10/10/16 (Any stat could have the 14 from Con, or split it 12/12)
Warpriest: 14/16/13/10/16/10
All builds have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim. The Fighter and the Warpriest both have Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Clustered Shots. The Fighter also has Weapon Specialization and Point Blank Master. Note that the Oracle always provokes in melee, while the Warpriest can use the Air Blessing to avoid provoking for 1 minute at a time.
Facing an APL 8 creature, here's the breakdown of the average damage:
Unbuffed, ranged
Fighter (Weapon master) 13/13/8 at 1d6+14 for an average DPR of 32.7
Wood oracle 11/11/6 at 1d6+11 for an average DPR of 22.3
Warpriest (Air, Destruction) 11/11/6 at 1d6+7 for an average DPR of 16.1
Buffed, ranged
Fighter (Weapon master) 15/15/10 at 1d6+17 for an average DPR of 45.1
Wood oracle 13/13/8 at 2d6+13 for an average DPR of 37.4
Warpriest (Air, Destruction) 16/16/11 at 1d6+12 for an average DPR of 36.6
Unbuffed, melee
Fighter (Weapon master) 12/7 at 1d4+17 for an average DPR of 21.5
Wood oracle 13/8 at 1d4+7 for an average DPR of 10.5
Warpriest (Air, Destruction) 9/4 at 1d4+9 for an average DPR of 7.8
Buffed, melee
Fighter (Weapon master) 16/11 at 1d4+21 for an average DPR of 33.3
Wood oracle 14/9 at 1d8+8 for an average DPR of 15.1
Warpriest (Air, Destruction) 13/8 at 1d4+18 for an average DPR of 22.6
For the fighter's "buffed" stats, I used Gloves of Dueling and a belt of strength +2.
I assumed the Oracle casts Greater Magic Weapon (lasts 8 hours) every day, so I added that to her "unbuffed" stats, too.
Here's a hypothetical combat sequence (using the unbuffed fighter) for comparison:
Surprise round
Fighter single attacks with DPR of 12.5
Oracle casts Shileleigh
Warpriest uses Blessing of Destruction
Round 1
Fighter full attacks with DPR of 32.7
Oracle casts Divine Favor
Warpriest casts Divine Favor
Round 2
Fighter full attacks with DPR of 32.7
Oracle full attacks with DPR of 37.4
Warpriest full attacks with DPR of 36.6
At this point, it will take the Oracle and Warpriest 8 rounds to catch up to the damage the fighter dealt out when they were buffing. Even just missing the surprise round puts them 2-3 rounds behind.
Main conclusions:
1) A warslinger built on the Fighter (Weapon Master) archetype out-damages the other builds in the long run. The others won't start to close the gap until they get their iterative attack at 8th level, and even then they need to spend two rounds buffing to beat the Fighter's "no magic" damage.
2)This archetype makes a pretty nice switch hitter. You could multiclass after level 7 to get a bit more flexibility and be more interesting.
3)Never underestimate the impact of two-handed Power Attack!
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You made some mistakes in the Warpriest breakdown, Gwen.
Warpriests have actual full BAB with sacred weapons, so they get iterative attacks on the the same schedule as the fighter. Also, as Weapon Focus applies to the sling staff when used in melee or ranges, the sacred weapon damage bonus applies to melee and ranged as well.
Also the use of Fervor means the Warpriest would not need to spend a standard action to cast Divine Favor, but would instead use a swift action, allowing another round of Full Attacks. Also, the Warpriest can use a swift action to add a +2 enhancement bonus to his weapon via Sacred Weapon. Finally no standard Golarion deity grans the Air and Destruction blessings.
You made some mistakes in the Warpriest breakdown, Gwen.
Warpriests have actual full BAB with sacred weapons, so they get iterative attacks on the the same schedule as the fighter. Also, as Weapon Focus applies to the sling staff when used in melee or ranges, the sacred weapon damage bonus applies to melee and ranged as well.
Also the use of Fervor means the Warpriest would not need to spend a standard action to cast Divine Favor, but would instead use a swift action, allowing another round of Full Attacks. Also, the Warpriest can use a swift action to add a +2 enhancement bonus to his weapon via Sacred Weapon. Finally no standard Golarion deity grans the Air and Destruction blessings.
I'll have to check the spreadsheet--I thought I did count weapon focus and the sacred weapon damage for melee as well as ranged. I'll also adjust the to-hit with the full BAB, though.
I didn't check for deities--I just went for "most useful" domains. Since the Warpriest doesn't have Close Quarters Thrower or Point Blank Master, he really want the Air domain so he doesn't provoke. And Destruction does the most damage. So you'd have to choose damage over provoking.
The way I read the fervor ability was that the warpriest could use that on cure/healing spells, not on all spells.
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Re-reading the document,and fervor can be used for any spell that can target the warpriest.
As a swift action, a warpriest can expend one use of this ability to cast any one warpriest spell he has
prepared. When cast in this way, the spell can only target
the warpriest, even if it could normally affect other or
multiple targets. Spells cast in this way ignore somatic
components and do not provoke attacks of opportunity