I am currently playing a Swashbuckler from the Advanced Class Guide beta. A question was raised after I declared the Total Defense action, and whether or not I could activate Opportune Parry and Riposte if I was attacked. Here is a summary of what we discussed so far.
- When you take the Total Defense action, you no longer threaten adjacent squares, which is a prerequisite of an attack of opportunity.
- However, the class ability states that it expends a use of an attack of opportunity, not that OPaR is an AoO itself.
- I believe its purpose is to limited the number of OPaRs that can be made in a round. Just as I can only make a number of AoOs in a round equal to my Dex modifier, I can only make a number of OPaRs in a round equal to my Dex modifier, regardless of the number of panache points I have (the ACG notes that grit feats apply to panache, so I could take Extra Grit (Panache) and have panache points exceeding my Dex modifier).
- Also, the Bodyguard feat likewise allows the expenditure of an AoO without actually making an AoO, or even being eligible for an AoO due to distance.
So for both Opportune Parry and Riposte and the Bodyguard feat, do you have to satisfy the requirements of making an AoO in order to expend an AoO?
For reference:
Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, he can spend 1 panache point and can expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if he were making an attack of opportunity. If his attack roll is greater than the roll of the attacking creature, the attack automatically misses. For each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on his attack roll. The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before that attack roll is made. Immediately after a swashbuckler performs a successful parry, as long as he has 1 panache point he can make an attack as an immediate action against the creature whose attack he blocked, provided that creature is within her reach.
Thanks!
Other problems I have found:
Can you OpPar when flat-footed ?
Can you OpPar an attack from an incorporeal creature without the proper weapon* ?
What about opponent with concealment* ?
(It says you need to make an attack roll greater than the opponent one)
It's good to report that kind of issue, but I don't think we'll get more indications before the release of the finished book.
You are not making an Attack of Opportunity. You are taking a different action that happens to count as an AoO for terms of limited AoO type actions in a turn. If it was an actual AoO, it would have just said so. The fact that it uses the whole "expend a use" and "as if he were making an attack of opportunity" language means it is absolutely not a normal AoO.
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Hector's right, we likely won't get updates until it comes out (August?)
RAW - I don't believe you even have to be aware of the attack to attempt an OPaR, so even when in Total Defense, you could Riposte back
RAI - I would think you would need to be aware of the attack to be able to OP at all(Is aware of attacker and not flat-footed), and be able to take attacks of opportunity to be able to take advantage of the Riposte half of the class feature. Combat Reflexes/Uncanny Dodge would likely satisfy both requirements unless the attacker is invisible/feinted against you.
In a home game, I'd say you could Parry/Bodyguard in Total Defense, but not Riposte.
It's not an AoO, but you make an attack roll as if you were doing an AoO.
The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if he were making an attack of opportunity.
I feel that they intentionally included the "a use of an attack of opportunity" instead of "as an immediate action" to reward a swashbuckler who takes combat reflexes. As such, it should also suffer from the same limitations as AoO's, such as not being able to use them when flatfooted or totally defensive.
He's giving up an ability to make an AoO to do something else. If he doesn't have the ability to make AoO's, then he is essentially giving up nothing for something, which is just wrong for a basic class skill.
Also, if they could go Total Defense, and still parry/riposte, it would be very similar to the old school Crane Style of increase defense->Negate attack-> hit back for damage, and we saw what happened to that.
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I feel that they intentionally included the "a use of an attack of opportunity" instead of "as an immediate action" to reward a swashbuckler who takes combat reflexes. As such, it should also suffer from the same limitations as AoO's, such as not being able to use them when flatfooted or totally defensive.
He's giving up an ability to make an AoO to do something else. If he doesn't have the ability to make AoO's, then he is essentially giving up nothing for something, which is just wrong for a basic class skill.
Also, if they could go Total Defense, and still parry/riposte, it would be very similar to the old school Crane Style of increase defense->Negate attack-> hit back for damage, and we saw what happened to that.
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.
If for some reason you can't make attacks of opportunity, you in essence have no uses of attacks of opportunity available to you while you use that ability. If you have no uses of attacks of opportunity, you cannot use opportune parry and riposte.
Thanks, Designer-san!
So bonuses to-hit when making an AoO don't apply either?
"The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if he were making an attack of opportunity."
I think this bit of the ability will answer your question.
If I may ask then, why not just say "the swashbuckler makes an attack of opportunity" rather than saying "he makes an attack which looks and acts just like an AoO and counts as an AoO but isn't an AoO except it has the same list of restrictions and gains the same bonuses"?
If I may ask then, why not just say "the swashbuckler makes an attack of opportunity" rather than saying "he makes an attack which looks and acts just like an AoO and counts as an AoO but isn't an AoO except it has the same list of restrictions and gains the same bonuses"?
Because it is like an attack of opportunity in some ways and not in others.
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*rubs temples*
Please don't describe another ability this way.
You of all people should realize this will only cause confusion and generate post after post asking for clarification.
Just say it's an AoO and be done with it. If you don't now, you will in two years via an FAQ post.
There were two questions. One was answered in the text, the other is a logical consequence of the text, I think I'm okay with that.
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Because it is like an attack of opportunity in some ways and not in others.
Though it assumes a certain interpretation of something like Full Defense. It assumes that 'cannot take AoO' actually means 'has zero available AoO uses'. As you see, that isn't universally agreed as the meaning.
If anything, another line that "you may only perform this actions in situations where you are capable of performing AoOs", but then it gets tricky. You're saying that this isn't an AoO but it 1) counts as one usage; 2) gains all the same bonuses (and presumably penalties); 3) cannot be used when AoOs cannot be used. I'm not sure what else is left that distinguishes it from an AoO except perhaps the action taken is not a standard melee attack but a contested attack roll.
Just trying to explain the viewpoint that lead to my (and it seems other's) confusion.
EDIT: added some letters I missed on the first try, heh.
If you cannot make attacks of opportunity, how many times can you make attacks of opportunity in a round? If you don't have Combat Reflexes? If you do have Combat Reflexes?
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So if you don't have Combat Reflexes and have already taken your attack of opportunity for the round, do you still provide flanking for your ally on the other side of the enemy? Or do you no longer threaten?
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So if you don't have Combat Reflexes and have already taken your attack of opportunity for the round, do you still provide flanking for your ally on the other side of the enemy?
Off topic, but yes, as long as you are still threatening your opponent. You can threaten any opponent where you can make an attack, even if it is not your turn, that area is defined by the weapon your are wielding and some other mitigating factors.
Thank you. Just thought I'd take advantage while we had a dev answering AoO-related questions. ;)
So bonuses to-hit when making an AoO don't apply either?
What bonuses would that be?
Are there specific bonuses that apply to AoO that doesn’t apply to normal attacks?I know there are some traits that only grant a bonus to AoO, but apart from that I’m not aware of any other bonuses.
If you cannot make attacks of opportunity, how many times can you make attacks of opportunity in a round? If you don't have Combat Reflexes? If you do have Combat Reflexes?
If you normally have X usages of AoO and cannot make AoOs, you still have X uses remaining that round.
The way I've understood it, there are three factors in determining if you can make an AoO at any given moment. If all three are true, you may take an AoO.
A) Remaining uses of AoO.
B) Not prevented from making an AoO.
C) AoO triggering condition met.
If any of these are false, it is immaterial what the values of the other two. For example, if there is no triggering condition met at a given moment, you cannot make an AoO. This doesn't mean your AoO usage count is zero. It means that it doesn't matter. Likewise, if point B is false, you can't make an AoO even if A and C are still good.
What you've stated is that point B doesn't exist. The concept of that option is rolled up into the means by which you calculate the remaining uses of AoO, which makes it no longer a simple number (total - taken) but a logical check (if cannot make AoO then 0 else total - taken).
I understand the desire to not call it an AoO because of any powers now or in the future that may chain off of an AoO, or modify it in some undesired way, or otherwise unexpectedly effect the ripost ability. You may still want to add a clause saying it is also prevented from being used when you are prevented from using AoOs.
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There were two questions. One was answered in the text, the other is a logical consequence of the text, I think I'm okay with that.
It doesn't matter if you are okay with it, what matters is how players and GMs interpret it.
The way you're wording it now is needlessly confusing. I guarantee you there will be confusion around this ability if you leave it as is.
There were two questions. One was answered in the text, the other is a logical consequence of the text, I think I'm okay with that.It doesn't matter if you are okay with it, what matters is how players and GMs interpret it.
The way you're wording it now is needlessly confusing. I guarantee you there will be confusion around this ability if you leave it as is.
I just want to mention that (I'm 99% sure) the ACG went to print already. This doesn't mean changes can't be made, but it does mean that this conversation is happening later than is ideal and changes cannot be made to the first printing of the ACG.
I'll just quote hat I said earlier:
Can you OpPar when flat-footed ?
Can you OpPar an attack from an incorporeal creature without the proper weapon* ?
What about opponent with concealment* ?*It only says you need to make an attack roll greater than the opponent one
I know the RAI, but I already hear people trying to argue on this one later. TBH, I already had a similar situation with a shadow attacking a flat-footed swashbuckler with combat reflexe.
Had to read a little before ruling.
Still, I'm really grateful you answer in this topic.
Do you appear in this precise topic because you're working on it ? I'm curious :p
yes