The way I read it, as soon as you leave cover/concealment, you must make a stealth check. If successful, your opponent is unaware you are there, and would be flat-footed against any attack. If you end your turn in cover or concealment, your opponent is still unaware of you (assuming you haven't attacked.) If you end your turn not in cover or concealment, your opponent becomes aware of you.
As far as multiple SA (throwing multiple shuriken) you're going to need greater invisibility or some other way to remain undetected after the first strike hits.
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If you do not make the snipe check after attacking, you will break Stealth. You can reenter Stealth after that, but it won't change the fact that the enemy saw you, so they're likely to go looking for you at the place where they saw you. Sniping allows you to attack without the enemy ever perceiving you, which is why it's so difficult (-20 penalty).
So, assuming you begin under Stealth in, say, concealment, you have two possible flows:
Standard action: Throw shuriken.
Move action: Snipe check (Stealth at -20) to maintain your position without becoming visible. Bob's your uncle. (Your Stealth skill had better be really good for this; even my mythic goblin pistolero can't pull this off without magical assistance. Eventually you can take the Stealthy Sniper talent to make this easier.)
or
Standard action: Throw shuriken.
Move action: Whatever; just do it Stealthily and you get a Stealth check as part of the movement. Since you didn't make the snipe check, though, the enemy saw you briefly, so you might want to use the move action to move to a different area of cover/concealment.
You aren't going to be able to make a full-attack and maintain Sneak Attack by Stealth alone, though.
You'd need Spring Attack to attack in between parts of a move like that, and you'd still reveal yourself briefly--you wouldn't have the move action required to make the snipe check. But you could still hide again on the move back into concealment.
I assume that PFS uses the RAW as much as possible on the subject of Stealth. I've only played a couple of PFS games and only one where Stealth was relevant; it didn't get into sniping though.
If I may, I just want to remind you that the requirements for SA dice are not, strictly speaking, reliant upon stealth per say. The critical factor is only that your target needs to be flanked or denied his or her DEX bonus. As long as that requirement is met you can SA to your heart’s content.
If I can offer up a suggestion for you I’d take a long, hard look at the disguise skill to off-set your challenges with stealth. My DM recently brewed up a feature Villian in a Jade Regent AP I’m not actually playing in. His villain is a Ninja with a ridiculously high disguise skill. The Villian, like you, prefers the use of shuriken from range with nunchuks as his melee alternative. The encounter begins with the Ninja Villian disguised and stalking the party in a busy marketplace during mid day. He presented me with a description of the party as the Ninja would see it and asked me what I would do, were I charged with the elimination of the party as this Villian is in his scenario.
Basically, this Ninja (if the PC’s aren’t able to overcome his crazy high disguise), can essentially close well within his optimal throwing range for shurikens, trigger a “surprise round” when and if he chooses to ambush the party. All of this hinging upon contested disguise checks against the party’s perception, and without using stealth at all. The RAW canon on surprise is longer, but this is the section in it that actually matters for the purposes of this post:
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
So in the perfect scenario for this Villian he closes within his required throwing distance for shurikens, initiates combat and hopefully surprises most, if not the entire party. Even better still would be for him to win Initiative. If those two elements play out in the Ninja’s favor he can essentially pepper surprised targets with SA dice with impunity for the entirety of the surprise round, and should he win initiative, his turn of the first round of combat.
Until any member of the party has acted, if they were flat-footed at the onset of the surprise round, they remain flat-footed and open to SA’s.
The cool thing about disguise as a tactic is that it’s mechanical, it isn’t trumped by casual magics. It’s literally a straight up contest of skill vs. Party perception rolls. Might be something to consider for yourself as with this kind of a tactic you could initiate surprise, stick a target or two and if you don’t feel comfortable with how things are going - cut and run, or flee briefly into cover or concealment to “stealth up” and re-evaluate your options.
Good luck!
So, I assume this is a hit and run sort of tactic? Because Disguise might make a human ninja throwing shuriken at the party look like a dwarven barmaid throwing shuriken at the party, but it won't stop the party from seeing and killing the dwarven barmaid.
So, I assume this is a hit and run sort of tactic? Because Disguise might make a human ninja throwing shuriken at the party look like a dwarven barmaid throwing shuriken at the party, but it won't stop the party from seeing and killing the dwarven barmaid.
In the case of the Ninja I used in the example yes, absolutely. There are a number of factors in that AP encounter and villian that I didn't want to get into in the event it crossed into spoiler territory for anyone.
More than anything I just thought it would be something worth considering for the OP who it appears is looking for ways to maximize their useage of SA dice in combat scenerio like any good precision-damage dealer will.
On the topic of sight reliance, you could certainly look at the Ninja trick:
Darkvision (Su): This trick allows the ninja to use her ki to enhance her sight, granting darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. Using this trick is a standard action that costs 1 ki point. The enhanced senses last for 1 hour.
If I'm playing a character like this, and please bear in mind I'm just spit-balling here as well as drawing from some nasty tactics our DM has used in the past on our parties, I'm constantly looking to do several situational things anytime we get into bloodletting as a party.
1. Flanking is my best friend. My feat selection and tactics end up revolving around how I can optimize my useage of flanks for SA dice on top of surprise, or any other situational factors like say grapple that deny my targets their DEX mods and open up my dice pools using SA.
2. If I am playing in a party where poisons are permitted me, I'm looking at carrying a wide variety of them for case-by-case application to assist me in achieving 1. Poisons that cause DEX damage, or paralytics are probably things I take a detailed look at.
3. Admittedly, in my games we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 years of gaming experience among us (6 players at an average of 25 years. Yeah, we're old farts). So we do an awful lot of recon and advance scouting, which lends itself to significant utilitarian use of surprise and prepping for combat.
4. If I'm the ninja my combat preference is to begin stealthed/hidden/invisible/disguised or what have you. I will take my time to maneuver myself into flanking position during combat with my lead in target. Assuming I have been efficient in doing so I break my stealth by sniping from my established position (hopefully with flank at the very least). Regardless of outcome at the end of my attack actions I'll swift action Vanish and then take whatever move actions I'm permitted, be they five foot or full move options depending upon what I've done to that point.
If my target is downed I move on to additional targets. If they are not downed but affected by any poisons I have made use of either a CdG (if its an option) or break my Vanish to rinse and repeat the flat-footed SA conditions. Assuming my ki is there for it re-Vanish. Ill rinse and repeat as necessary my way through the combat.
Now this is all ifs and whens and a heavy ki pool draw certainly. But it certainly places a strong emphasis on the utility of a Ninja's Vanishing trick as a possible staple for maximizing SA's opportunities.
No, but it can pave the way for Helpless. Which effectively applies a DEX 0 (which I think would qualify) to the helpless target and opens them to CdG's.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
I'd look at the rogue talent to max sa in surprise with the ni ja hidden weapons stuff. Finish it with catch off guard and kill them with melee shuriken.
I'd look at the rogue talent to max sa in surprise with the ni ja hidden weapons stuff. Finish it with catch off guard and kill them with melee shuriken.
Can you elaborate a little? I'm curious only because I understand Catch off Guard to apply only to improvised weapons and I'm not sure how that applies. And while I don't know every rule, feat, trait, or alternate feature there is without some research how do you utilize shuriken in melee?
I'm not trying to be discourteous or belittle the post. I'm genuinely curious.
So, I assume this is a hit and run sort of tactic? Because Disguise might make a human ninja throwing shuriken at the party look like a dwarven barmaid throwing shuriken at the party, but it won't stop the party from seeing and killing the dwarven barmaid.In the case of the Ninja I used in the example yes, absolutely. There are a number of factors in that AP encounter and villian that I didn't want to get into in the event it crossed into spoiler territory for anyone.
More than anything I just thought it would be something worth considering for the OP who it appears is looking for ways to maximize their useage of SA dice in combat scenerio like any good precision-damage dealer will.
Coolio. I like the tactic. Makes for a great way to engender paranoia, especially if the ninja attacks from a crowd.
if there was cover within 10 feet of the target than you would get a sneak attack with the first throw, but other throws will be without sneak attack...
once you step out of cover you no longer have cover so will not do sneak attack UNLESS you can get into cover again but even in this case you would still only get 1 sneak attack throw.
the only way to get multiple sneak attacks is to be flanking or if the target is blind or you have greater invisibility.
there is a way a ninja can do that by taking the ninja vanishing tricks. what you can also do is take the feat dirty trick and blind the target for several rounds of combat than you can do sneak attack all the time.
With respect, this is not a unilaterally true statement. Cover, has little at all to do with SA’s in and of itself, excepting that cover ALLOWS you to make a stealth check. You’re correct to state that once you break from cover you have broken STEALTH, but as that cover and subsequent stealth attack from cover may well lead to surprise, breaking cover does not immediately mean that your opponent is no longer flat-footed UNTIL they have made an action. Which means, by RAW, ALL of your attacks during surprise will qualify for sneak attack dice.
Cover and Stealth Checks
You can use cover to make a Stealth check. Without cover, you usually need concealment (see below) to make a Stealth check.
I cited earlier from RAW why surprise and flanking is crucial to SA effectiveness earlier in this thread but I’ll recite to save time:
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Boiled down that means that it doesn’t matter if you can throw 10 shuriken during your surprise actions, it doesn’t matter if you have cover or concealment, are invisible, or in fact standing in the middle of the street wearing a huge sign that says “Ima Ninja” around your neck – If you have fulfilled the situational requirements and mechanics to qualify as having surprised your foe. He is flat-footed and susceptible to SA’s.
In fact, not only are all of your attacks during the surprise round against flat-footed opponents awarded your SA dice, but ALL of your attacks during the first round of combat UNTIL those targets ACT are bolstered by SA’s. That’s not RAI, that’s RAW.
You don’t want to be surprised by a rogue-type. Sneaky fellows OTOH, really want to surprise you, mostly to see what pretty colors you have on the inside.
Coolio. I like the tactic. Makes for a great way to engender paranoia, especially if the ninja attacks from a crowd.
It does. This NPC using his Master of Disguise even moreso. In his first round his contested disguise check is well over 40, meaning it’s virtually assured that he will surprise the party and start hammering them with surgical effectiveness. Even when (and if) they are able to counter-act behind his virtually assured surprise round, it’s a bustling, busy marketplace. He can dart in and out of concealment and cover, hide and quickly re-establish a NEW disguise to start at all over again with only a 30+ contested check against any new disguise. And a simple Invisibility Purge is no help at all to our bold heroes. He isn’t off-setting anything with magic, he’s just that damned good.
Master of Disguise (Ex)
Prerequisite: Advanced talents
Benefit: Once per day, a rogue with this talent gains a +10 bonus on a single Disguise check.
To say nothing of the fact that if things really go poorly he doesn’t just do that crazy Ninja wall climbing stuff and flee or re-position. Should the party panic and scatter senselessly, this guy is going to tear them apart. A good tactical enemy that doesn’t rely on magic for everything and utilizes terrain and tactics is a nightmare.
Get a poisoned sand tube from UE, pick you powder or poison, blast everyone in 15' cone.
Poisoned Sand Tube is a clever idea. Loaded with Tears of Death towards endgame and I could see that setting up a whole bunch of “Bad Day” for people you wanted to take out. Expensive, but certainly interesting.
I didn't even know about this. I'll have to look more into it. Thanks!
Dirty Trick
Source: Advanced Player's Guide.
You can attempt to hinder a foe in melee as a standard action. This maneuver covers any sort of situational attack that imposes a penalty on a foe for a short period of time. Examples include kicking sand into an opponent’s face to blind him for 1 round, pulling down an enemy’s pants to halve his speed, or hitting a foe in a sensitive spot to make him sickened for a round. The GM is the arbiter of what can be accomplished with this maneuver, but it cannot be used to impose a permanent penalty, and the results can be undone if the target spends a move action. If you do not have the Improved Dirty Trick feat or a similar ability, attempting a dirty trick provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack is successful, the target takes a penalty. The penalty is limited to one of the following conditions:
blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened.This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, the penalty lasts 1 additional round. This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action. If you possess the Greater Dirty Trick feat, the penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD. In addition, removing the condition requires the target to spend a standard action.
Dirty Trick is only going to be feasible (assuming your emphasis is on sniping) if you use the feat with your melee attacks and then take advantage of it from range. It’s a melee attack specific feat. That said. If you created some chaos with a cloud of some kind, maybe through smokesticks, Smoke Bomb, or Choking Bomb tricks so you could close to melee under concealment, paint a target with Dirty Trick then bail out to pound them with your sniping fire from shuriken?
Labour intensive for sure, but definite flair factor. OTOH you provoke an AoO without Imp. Dirty Trick and all your target has to do is move (unless you chain all the way to Gr. Dirty Trick), you'll have concealed your own target unless you yourself can see through your cloud (assuming you established one to close and use Dirty Trick), and he removes the effect of all that complex maneuvering with a move, or standard action.
All things considered (and I realize that I’m sort of camped on your thread, I just really love the mental exercise) I would say that the very best way for you to do what you’re trying to do with your ninja is ensure you have the Ranged Flank feat, Snap Shot, and Imp. Snap Shot.
Use poisons (and I can’t stress how important it is to familiarize yourself with the effects of multiple doses of poison on a single target), attack from surprise, like, popping out of stealth, invisibility, or concealment. And live and breathe off of your swift action Vanishing trick to maintain the possibility of just rinse and repeat.
Ranged Flank (Combat)
Even at a distance, you can take advantage of a distracted opponent.
Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +10.
Benefit: When attacking with ranged or thrown weapons from a distance of up to 30 feet, if the nearest adjacent space to your target is unoccupied and the opposite space is occupied by a threatening ally, you are considered flanking. Both you and your ally gain all the benefits of flanking, including +2 flanking bonus on attacks, rogues can sneak attack, etc.Normal: Only characters in melee are considered flanking.
The reality is that with limited to no effort there comes a time when invisibility just simply isn’t the answer any longer. Faerie Fire, Invisibility Purge, True Sight all immediately spring to mind as ways that become almost certain for enemies to defeat your efforts at SA dice without feat investments on your part. Maybe you even consider a dip into a class that provides you Blind or Hold Person to kind of pad your bets, but if we’re being honest with ourselves...
There are answers for everything that we can do as players. You cannot ever expect to always do anything. What you have to develop is a sound tactical strategy, be patient and use feats and position to give yourself the best chances to achieve the results that you want, and let the dice determine the rest.
The theory is one of my favorite parts of the game, and for that opportunity thank you!!