I'm looking to compare the DPR of an optimized Archer Fighter vs an optimized Zen Archer. Which does more damage at level 20? I haven't been able to hunt the two down so I was wondering if someone could calculate it for me.
Paladin looks like it's only effective when smiting, which is too limited. Ranger looks limited as well, the fighter gets almost as many bonuses as the Ranger does. If there is some other class that is competitive for damage I'm willing to consider it. Any help is appreciated.
Zen Archer would get 2-3 more attacks per round each doing less than a comparably built fighter but totalling higher for the round.
Is it a large disparity or are they pretty close? Is there another thread where someone has done the math?
|
Zen Archer would get 2-3 more attacks per round each doing less than a comparably built fighter but totalling higher for the round.
It depends if the ZA spends KI to do Unarmed Strike Damage. They have access to the same feats, so a Fighter would have +6 to hit/damage from Duelist Gloves/weapon Training, where the ZA would have an extra 6.5 average damage from the die increase of 1d8 to 2d10, and another 1d6 acid damage from Deliquescent Gloves.
Fighter would be more accurate against high AC opponents, but the ZA can shoot things that would be impossible for the fighter (Wind Wall/Fickle Winds/Total Cover).
Level 20 comparison doesn't really help.
Also don't discount ranger, Instant Enemy is thing.
True, and they do get a lot of bonus feats. I'm leaning Zen Archer because the damage is good and the ki stuff seems interesting. I've never played a Monk before, so it'll be a new experience.
I would assume definitely on the Unarmed strike. With that and Ki Leech you shouldn't burn through Ki too fast, right?
|
|
True, and they do get a lot of bonus feats. I'm leaning Zen Archer because the damage is good and the ki stuff seems interesting. I've never played a Monk before, so it'll be a new experience.
I would assume definitely on the Unarmed strike. With that and Ki Leech you shouldn't burn through Ki too fast, right?
If your looking at level 20, don't discount the Sohei monk.
He can flurry with rapid shot + many shot and has Weapon Training as a class feature.
How does Magus compare? I've seen some threads where they said Magus could do great things with a bow, but as far as I can tell none of the archetypes switch Spell Combat to ranged.
The magus archetype in question is myrmidiarch - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/myrmidarch
Not a name which gives away what it does, true.
I'm surprised that a ranger is dismissed as an option. The guide archetype makes it a very good archer indeed.
Is anyone able to locate a DPR thread for actual numbers? I've tried extensively, but haven't had any luck.
Looked at the Guide, looks ok, but still nothing exceptional. Ranger isn't completely dismissed, I just haven't seen anything that makes it look particularly competitive.
|
|
How does Magus compare? I've seen some threads where they said Magus could do great things with a bow, but as far as I can tell none of the archetypes switch Spell Combat to ranged.
It doesn't switch Spell Combat to ranged, but it does give you Ranged Spellstrike which allows you to cast a multi-ray spell, and deliver those attacks with a full attack of your bow.
Inquisitor is a better archer than Magus, but I don't think any 3/4 BAB class is a good primary archer, just for the severely delayed access to Improved Precise Shot.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Both can do ridiculous damage at high levels - enough to kill boss enemies solo in a round or two. If you want to play one as a fun character, I'd suggest focusing on things other than DPR.
First thing the damage difference between the two.. really doesn't matter. Lots and lots? They will borh shred most targets.
Second there seems to be some misinformation. Ill try to clear tgis up.
At lvl 20 with no ki point for attacks a zen archer fires 1 more arrow than the fighter. 2 if ki is spent on an attack.
You can't stack the attack and uas damage its one or the other.
Finally the fighter does around 10 damage more per shot.
Having the zen archer use the uas damage thing I don't know how to factor.
But I say on average the fighters non random damage bonuses are considerably higher. +10 damage accross...7? Arrows is considerable.
However in practical application I don't know it matters. If the op is looking between the two look at the extra stuff the classes do.
Zen archers utility stuff is much easier to apply. The combat maneuver stuff of the fighter archetype is neat but the -4 may make it unusable.
More than anything I'm trying to satisfy my curiosity. I haven't seen anyone give numbers so I can see where things stand. Realistically, I realize most options will still devastate the enemy.
There's a Damage Calculator spreadsheet in the PFS GM Shared Prep folder:
It has an Excel file to do all the calculations, and the ranged tab allows you to account for cover and concealment. Each attack sequence allows for 10 attacks a round.
There's also a Word file that explains all the cells and formulas, as well as a section that explains the math behind the formulas (dice averaging, to hit calculations, and probability distribution for expected value on damage).
I've used this damage calculator to compare career averages of different types of archer builds. If you look at level 10 as an isolated snapshot, the fighter completely blows away the Zen Archer, no questions asked.
However...
- The Zen Archer out-damages an archer fighter until level 6.
- After level 6, assuming the fighter doesn't trade out Weapon Training I and the fighter picks up Manyshot, the fighter begins to do more damage.
- If the GM is strict on cover rules (e.g., shooting through other creatures is Soft Cover instead of Partial Cover) or if there's a lot of concealment in the game (dim light without dark vision), the Zen Archer can pick up Improved Precise Shot at level 6 and be pretty comparable with the fighter until level 10.
- The Zen Archer is better off using ki points for an extra shot rather than use the ki points to make the bow do the same as an unarmed strike. (Gravity Bow accomplishes the same thing, and it leaves you with your ki points and swift action each round.)
I like staying with Zen Archer through level 6: you walk away with get Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Precise Shot. If you do Zen Archer/Qinggong, you also get 2 ki powers. After that...
- If you're game ends around level 8-9, stick with the Zen Archer, but take a level dip into Ranger to get access to Gravity Bow on a wand.
- If it ends around level 10-12, do Zen Archer through 6th level, then switch to Weapon Master fighter (you get weapon training at level 3).
- If it ends higher than level 12, do Zen Archer through level 6 (or 7, if you want the Monk's Robe), then switch to any archetype of fighter that does not trade out Weapon Training.
So a Fighter/Zen Monk outdamages the individuals alone?
In my opinion:
Fighter Archer - highest "always on" damage.
Zen Archer - high damage when ki is used. Good Reflex and Will saves. You really don't want an archer getting dominated.
Ranger - high to hit/damage vs Favored Enemy / Instant Enemy. Some spell casting. Far more skill points than Fighter or Monk.
How does Magus compare? I've seen some threads where they said Magus could do great things with a bow, but as far as I can tell none of the archetypes switch Spell Combat to ranged.
The Magus has some great tricks (most Arcana like Bane Blade aren't actually restricted to melee weapons), but as mentioned earlier, 3/4 BAB archers don't work well until very high levels, barring early access to feats. Nearly all archery feats have BAB requirements, and they're fit tightly to the Full BAB progression.
How bad is Sohei compared to Zen Archer at lower levels. I certainly wouldn't mind having an animal companion, that would add a fair amount of DPR.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If DPR is the only thing that matters, the only game you're playing is the DPR calculator. The fighter wins DPR, but any other archer is more fun to play than the fighter in my opinion.
You'll find that in any paizo AP the more versatile character is the best "power game" build because you can participate all the way through.
So a Fighter/Zen Monk outdamages the individuals alone?
Like I said, the Zen Archer out damages the fighter at earlier levels, primarily because the Zen Archer gets early feat access:
1) The Zen Archer gets Point Blank Master at level 3; the Fighter can't get it until level 5. Being able to full attack in the middle of melee is really, really helpful. Anything that lets you full
2) The Zen Archer gets access to Improved Precise Shot at level 6; the Fighter can't get it until level 11. If your GM imposes strict cover penalties, this is huge. If you don't have darkvision or if you face a lot of concealment in your game, Improved Precise Shot is even more important.
Once you have these two feats under your belt, you can switch to pretty much anything else. The Zen Archer gets some nice tricks, but those will not increase your damage output.
The Fighter begins to out-damage the Zen Archer when he gets Weapon Training at level 5 (level 3 for Weapon Master archetype). Once the Fighter picks up Manyshot at level 6, the Fighter is throwing out as many arrows each round as a Zen Archer does with a ki point, and ki points are a finite supply.
If you're starting at level 10 OR if you are only concerned with your damage output at your highest possible level, build a Fighter.
If you actually have to play the lower levels and are concerned about your damage output throughout each level, you should consider multiclassing.
The fighter focused archer (please for the love of god don't use the archer fighter archetype, it's actually worse at being an archer than a regular fighter)will put out more consistent damage than the zen archer monk. The zen archer will be able to do more damage for a number of rounds roughly equal to his ki. Depending on the length of your adventuring day this may be all day or only a short portion of it.
The archer ranger with instant enemy and a high favored enemy bonus can potentially put up damage on par with either and gets spell casting and an animal companion to watch your back and intercept an enemies that get to close or allow you to do mounted archery. Get to move and do a full attack? Yes please! You took Sable Marine Company archetype? You can now ride on your flying mount and be a turret of death. Lets see the monk or fighter do that.
Plus, Gravity Bow and Aspect of the Falcon (though admittedly Bracers of Falcon Aim can replace the ability to cast the spell) are some great low level spells for archers.
A Sohei with the new Monstrous Mount feat could get a Griffon. Anything with a mount can now get more vicious stuff.
Gwen, when I was looking at fighter I was thinking Weapon Master archetype with Dueling Gloves would be best. Do you see other options that would be better?
Oh wow. Well, that sucks. I saw the mount abilities and assumed. It's probably not worth sinking in the extra couple of feats either when I could do the same for a Zen Archer. I'm honestly just really indecisive still. My biggest qualm with fighter is that it is consistent and effective, but that's all it has. Monks have other bells and whistles, as do Rangers. Monks seem focused on the self, with buffs and various SLAs, but Rangers have spells and a companion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh wow. Well, that sucks. I saw the mount abilities and assumed. It's probably not worth sinking in the extra couple of feats either when I could do the same for a Zen Archer. I'm honestly just really indecisive still. My biggest qualm with fighter is that it is consistent and effective, but that's all it has. Monks have other bells and whistles, as do Rangers. Monks seem focused on the self, with buffs and various SLAs, but Rangers have spells and a companion.
The most consistent and playable archer is (IMO) the mounted ranger. Plenty of feats, early access to IPS and instant enemy later on for the win. Every campaign eventually benefits from a ranger with tracking and outdoorsy skills. I wrote a guide on that actually, it's in the sticky under rangers.
The thing about mounted archery is that it takes exactly NO feats to perform, but you do need a dependable source for a mount. Paladins and Rangers get this in one form or another. Because you invest no feats into it you're not really suffering when you dismount to hit a dungeon.
The paladin with the vengance oath can have more smites per day than a normal paladin, and when smite is on will out DPR a ranger using favored enemy.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I smell corruption in this thread...are we theory crafting or is someone looking for advice on being a filthy oily power gaming break monster?
|
|
Oh wow. Well, that sucks. I saw the mount abilities and assumed. It's probably not worth sinking in the extra couple of feats either when I could do the same for a Zen Archer. I'm honestly just really indecisive still. My biggest qualm with fighter is that it is consistent and effective, but that's all it has. Monks have other bells and whistles, as do Rangers. Monks seem focused on the self, with buffs and various SLAs, but Rangers have spells and a companion.
The compelling part of the Sohie is: they get more attacks/round than the zen archer while benefiting from the fighters weapon training and dueling gloves.
As a bonus: sohei have the same initiative bonuses as a diviner.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just theory crafting. I have fun seeing what I can do within the system. I certainly don't want to get in game and outshine everyone else. Don't worry.
|
Keep in mind that if damage is your solo focus, Gwen as answered your questions.
However, the Zen archer has other advantages that make it really viable even later in the game.
Remember that as monks their saves/speed/ac continue to go up.
They can use Wis to hit and str for damage allowing them to get headband/belt separately for to hit and damage. This can provide better bonuses earlier and even larger bonuses later.
AC wise a dex based archer, unless a regular fighter with armor training, may cap out the benefit of his primary stat. The Zen Archer really can't. Further more his AC bonus applies to flatfooted and touch, making him harder to hit all around. Combined with the fun of Qinggong you can really make a Zen archer monk a frontliner with good damage and great saves.
Fighters have to spend their feats on archery. Zen Archers generally get them all as bonuses. The exception being Deadly Aim. This means you can use feats for other things. One of my favorites is to get Wisdom of the Flesh (Disable Device) and the new Trapfinding talent in Mummy's Mask (sadly not for PFS) and make your zen archer and insane trap finder.
All in all there are many ways to make great archer:
1. Fighter - Weapon Master, the best damage you can put out.
2. Ranger - Good damage, feat starved but more skills, AC and 10+ can get great damage with instant enemy. Don't forget the wall of Roc you can put between yourself and the target.
3. Paladin - Divine Hunter, great flavor, great saves, good damage, self healing and insane DPR vs. Evil with smite. A Cha 16 starting paladin with a +6 headband at 20 getting +6 to hit and +20 damage penetrating DR will smoke many of the other damage builds.
4. Zen Archer Monk - Lots of bonus feats, good damage, great saves/abilities, awesome tankiness and great flavor.
5. Inquisitor - I have seen one of these in action and stacking bane/judgement with arrow swarms is impressive. Lots of spells and abilities plus a domain and great wis synergy.
I have never seen but heard of good arcane archers, hunter archers and one I would love to actually see in play was a summoner archer with an archery based Eidolon.
Currently trying to figure out if Sohei 6/Weapon Master 14 would be more effective or if Zen Archer 6/ Weapon Master 14 would win out. Is someone better with numbers capable of crunching this for me?
Not surprisingly, the slayer archer is top notch also assuming 1/6th a rogue talent for the human favored class bonus (like rogues). Of course it assumes you have access to Violent Display to be getting more sneak attacks off.
The Zen Archer would do more damage than a Sohei.
DM won't allow ACG classes until the book is out. My Warpriest is halfway built nonetheless.
The Zen Archer would do more damage than a Sohei.
Even with Manyshot and Rapid Shot for Sohei?
The Zen Archer would do more damage than a Sohei.Even with Manyshot and Rapid Shot for Sohei?
And the fact he gets weapon training and can stack the gloves for further bonuses, and the fact he only needs so many levels in sohei before he can swap to weapon master fighter?
|
|
Rapid Shot and Manyshot give you two more attacks per round at the cost of an extra -4 to hit. The weapon training doesn't really make up for that difference. There is also the fact that Flurry and Rapid Shot/Manyshot should not stack even for the Sohei. The loophole is an oversight in the Archetype, and it should be closed.
A normal monk cannot combine Flurry and Two Weapon fighting to get extra off hand attacks in addition to the normal flurry of blows. Likewise, a Zen Archer, the monk who has dedicated himself to nothing but mastery of the bow cannot combine flurry of blows and rapid shot/manyshot. It just doesn't make sense for a monk that is training in Armor use, multiple weapons, and horsemanship to be better at archery than a Zen Archer who does nothing but archery.
The Zen Archer would do more damage than a Sohei.Even with Manyshot and Rapid Shot for Sohei?
If you are unwilling to take other's words for it, you should build the characters and run the numbers yourself. You don't even have to be good with math, someone up thread provided you with a link and all you have to do is put in the numbers.
I smell corruption in this thread...are we theory crafting or is someone looking for advice on being a filthy oily power gaming break monster?
You're seriously asking that in a thread where the choices are Fighter and Monk?
Is there anything that increases effective monk level for flurry? It's help with multiclassing, but I'm not finding anything. I'm dependant on numbers for two reasons, the biggest being that my computer crashes every time I open excel, second I'm new and still learning.
|
|
I smell corruption in this thread...are we theory crafting or is someone looking for advice on being a filthy oily power gaming break monster?You're seriously asking that in a thread where the choices are Fighter and Monk?
You can power game with any class, and archers can very much dominate if optimized heavily enough.
The Zen Archer would do more damage than a Sohei.Even with Manyshot and Rapid Shot for Sohei?
I would think so. He only needs one ability score.
I was assuming the Sohei loses out on ki points, but I did not actually check. If the sohei still gets his ki points then he might be ahead.
PS: I am also guessing. I have not run any numbers. :)
And the fact he gets weapon training and can stack the gloves for further bonuses, and the fact he only needs so many levels in sohei before he can swap to weapon master fighter?The Zen Archer would do more damage than a Sohei.Even with Manyshot and Rapid Shot for Sohei?
I was assuming straight class levels not multiclassing.
I did the math a while ago - in case I find my files I can post it here. I remember Sohei being #1 at lvl 16 (my reference level back then)
PS: I am also guessing. I have not run any numbers. :)
I've not run any numbers recently.
I remember Sohei pulled ahead of zen archer at some point, but I don't remember when or by how much.
I don't think either monk build beats a straight fighter at level 20.
It is hard to do at 20th level because the fighter is getting 19-20x4 auto-confirm crits with the longbow.