Allowed how? By the Developers not having added in a patch for it yet? The admins not being there 24/7 to kick/ban for using it? That isn't a build when everyone is intended to conform to rules where they have certain weapons. The makers of Team Fortress didn't intend the Scout to have mirvs, AC Cannon and 300 armor.
It's well known and its been around for awhile now. Paragon Surge and Blood Money aren't new. Their old. Very very old. This isn't something that is unknown. Thus, yes its allowed. Now Crane Wing on the other hand...
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No CHWheezy, I refuse to have people attempt to guilt trip me into "changing my behavior" when I call out things like munchkining and they try to rephrase it to language to make it sound less bad so it can become excusable.
I'm not a murder, I'm just a life-span adjustment specialist.
No you are a guy who thinks that throws are cheap in Street Fighter and refuses to learn how to deal with them or play with people who use them. Is that a valid way to play the game? I guess. Is it a good way to master the game? No. Animal Oracle is actually Akuma in this metaphor but I digress...
They just have massive DR instead. It can be a fun flavor thing to be a true shirtless warrior if you feel like it
I understand how to get really high DR, but at low levels that DR 1 is not going to help if you are always hits, and even at high levels certain monsters will still kill you, assuming you live that long, if they don't miss enough.
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I think the big issue with Uber builds and 'broken' combos is that we have this mentality that we are all playing at the same table and that what is possible in theory crafting is going to destroy your own home game.
DMs and Players alike have the power to restrict such in their own games and for that reason there is not much the devs even need to do to 'fix' the problem.
It's not an MMO where cheaters who hack the game are destroying your own personal server. You get to choose who you play with.
The same thing can be said of extremely weak builds and classes. Extremes really only happen on the internet, very rarely do I see such issues when at the table, and I have some of the worst munchkins for players out there.
Compared to the rules that my players try and get me to forget about or bypass so they can make illegal combos to break the game, I would love to see someone make a build that was extremely powerful and didn't break or attempt to break any of the rules.
Throws are a BUTTON in the game and are obviously not an exploit. If there is a spot on a map where you could stand in street fighter and take no damage but still attack that is obviously an exploit and was a mistake.
I see you didn't follow my metaphor MattR1986. Akuma is overwhelmingly the most powerful character in Super Street Fighter II Turbo and is banned from tournaments. That does not mean he is a mistake or coded wrong or an exploit. He's just to powerful for competitive play. Akuma = Animal Oracle.
In many games these glitches or whatever just become part of the experience or competition once they are discovered. I haven't played any games where this is not the case, barring ones that crash the game or do something similar
The makers of Team Fortress didn't intend the Scout to have mirvs, AC Cannon and 300 armor.This is not actually changing game files? Is this talking about TF2? Maybe it is in team fortress classic?
Actually, ya... exactly. Basically MattR1986 is the guy who goes to Super Smash Bros. Melee tournament and complains about wave dashing. Because that's what the Animal Oracle is... wave dashing.
Muchkining to me is rules lawyering, but only to gain an advantage and interpreting the rules in the most favorable way, even if it is most likely not the intent. <----This person is likely to cause problems at most tables.
Now if you just go and find every possible good combo, that is powergaming, but you are withing RAW and RAI. <----I am not saying this is a good thing, but if a GM has a problem with it he should tell you to tone it back. Yeah I realize PFS does not allow that option for GM's.
Min Max has been said to ignore all weaknesses to build your strengths, and other have said it is shoring up all weakness so they are minimized. Personally I have like the first definition better but calling it a "specialized" build also works.
Now what exactly is the current subtopic about?
A. Munchkining as described above
B. Powergaming as described above
C. Other
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As I have experienced it the main difference between a 'munchkin' and a 'power gamer' is that the former will attempt to ignore, bypass, or negate RAW in favor of fun; and the latter will ride the asymptote of RAW to maximize effectiveness without having to ask the DM for permission.
I have no quarrel with power gamers because they aren't breaking any rules. I do have issue with munchkins because they are either trying to break the rules, or they are trying to hijack and exploit 'rule zero.'
Anyone who claims that 'rule zero' is part of RAW and therefore exploiting it is itself within the scope of power gaming is basically the problem child in my eyes.
Arguing the linguistics of the rules rather than the meaning and exploiting semantics is the munchkin thing to do. Finding powerful combos that are within the parameters of the game's design is the power gamer talking.
If I were a good writer I would come up with another way to express it, but I think I made my point well enough.
I'm just using a hypothetical situation about a game like Team Fortress where IF there was a glitch that did this. There actually was one in TFC where the scout could get different weapons. I think it was fixed.
Your metaphor said that I think throwing is an exploit. That would be like me saying grapple is an exploit.
If anything, if we are going to continue this analogy (I'm not an expert on all versions of SF) then your Akuma would be the equivalent of a Synth/Master Summoner. Designed poorly to start, not an exploit.
This is different than if for instance in some old Half-Life games you used to be able to say "spec" in console and it would make you be able to teleport into characters and kill them. This was an unintended loophole in the writing of the game that imperfect creators let in when writing something else. They didn't write the spectate rules intending these commands to be used that way.
Wave Dashing is the perfect analog for what Paragon Surge/Blood Money abuse is. Chain grabs work well as an analog for Animal Oracles ability to gain infinite stats. The animal oracle itself is... ah... Fox I guess? All those things are part of the SSBM tournament metagame. So you are the guy who goes to SSBM tournaments and complains that waveshining is an exploit.
As I have experienced it the main difference between a 'munchkin' and a 'power gamer' is that the former will attempt to ignore, bypass, or negate RAW in favor of fun; and the latter will ride the asymptote of RAW to maximize effectiveness without having to ask the DM for permission.
I have no quarrel with power gamers because they aren't breaking any rules. I do have issue with munchkins because they are either trying to break the rules, or they are trying to hijack and exploit 'rule zero.'
Anyone who claims that 'rule zero' is part of RAW and therefore exploiting it is itself within the scope of power gaming is basically the problem child in my eyes.
Arguing the linguistics of the rules rather than the meaning and exploiting semantics is the munchkin thing to do. Finding powerful combos that are within the parameters of the game's design is the power gamer talking.
If I were a good writer I would come up with another way to express it, but I think I made my point well enough.
Exactly. Optimizers hate twisting RAW. We like to go by exactly what is written. Is detonating Explosive Runes with Greater Dispel Magic (cast by say a summon) a very very powerful tactic? Of course. Is it completely RAW with no twisting? Of course. That's the kind of thing us optimizers love.
So far, unless I missed one, it looks like only 3 posters have played the kind of PC's I was asking about. It sounds like they really enjoyed them all the time. (Most of the others seem to be saying those don't exist. shrug)
I would guess that percentage is in the ball park of what I have seen at PFS. However, the ones I've seen didn't seem to be having that much fun most of the time.
So far, unless I missed one, it looks like only 3 posters have played the kind of PC's I was asking about. It sounds like they really enjoyed them all the time. (Most of the others seem to be saying those don't exist. shrug)
I would guess that percentage is in the ball park of what I have seen at PFS. However, the ones I've seen didn't seem to be having that much fun most of the time.
Not that they don't exist, but the nature by which they exist, as if the uber in question was playing in a game with the hypothetical powerless DM, which leads to a much loathed conversation about player entitlement.
If the DM is powerless, then of course uber builds thrive. By RAW, the DM is not powerless, unless he allows the players to exploit rule zero, by way of rule zero itself.
I really hate trying to explain to my players why I rule things the way I do, because too often I am asked why I bother to uphold rules that I myself do not have full knowledge of and why I do not just make rulings on the fly. The main reason is to prevent such things from being exploited, which is the basis of this whole thread in the first place.
...
I don't think I have seen many of these seriously suggested. I have seen anyone completely ignore defense. The closest I have seen...
There was one a while back that was max str THW fighting, initiative bonus, and movment. The goal was to one shot everything before it could do anything.
No armor, now save bonuses (except reflex), no significant DR, etc...I think it had 3 or 4 classes.
No skill ranks other than a few in perception and acrobatics.
In its ideal circumstances, it was deadly. But they just assumed it would never be surprised and would never roll low on initiative.
The author specifically said he didn't need skill ranks in much of anything since if you RP good enough a good GM always gives it to you anyway.
iirc, Most of the posters seemed to like the build. It looked horrible to me.
I can think of 0 optimizers who would approve of "not needing skill ranks since you can just RP it". That's the kind of mentality we tend to hate. We're also not fond of defenseless glass cannons, unless we're just talking about dps in a given thread and not overall ability.
... So I'm not sure where your idea of "just sit there when Slumber Hex is not an option" is coming from. Is just incredibly wrong...
The player literally said "I hold my action until I see an opponent that can be slumbered."
...
I don't think I have seen many of these seriously suggested. I have seen anyone completely ignore defense. The closest I have seen...There was one a while back that was max str THW fighting, initiative bonus, and movment. The goal was to one shot everything before it could do anything.
No armor, now save bonuses (except reflex), no significant DR, etc...
I think it had 3 or 4 classes.
No skill ranks other than a few in perception and acrobatics.In its ideal circumstances, it was deadly. But they just assumed it would never be surprised and would never roll low on initiative.
The author specifically said he didn't need skill ranks in much of anything since if you RP good enough a good GM always gives it to you anyway.
iirc, Most of the posters seemed to like the build. It looked horrible to me.
If I could have seen that thread it would have been nice.
BTW: I agree with you. That would not have survived at my table.
... So I'm not sure where your idea of "just sit there when Slumber Hex is not an option" is coming from. Is just incredibly wrong...The player literally said "I hold my action until I see an opponent that can be slumbered."
That seems to be a player issue rather than a build one. Witches have lots of non-Slumber Hex options. Even tossing Misfortune can be a fantastic way to set-up an opponent for another player to knock down.
If those are the kinds of people that are bored, I suspect they just read a guide and never really considered all their options.
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So far, unless I missed one, it looks like only 3 posters have played the kind of PC's I was asking about. It sounds like they really enjoyed them all the time. (Most of the others seem to be saying those don't exist. shrug)
I would guess that percentage is in the ball park of what I have seen at PFS. However, the ones I've seen didn't seem to be having that much fun most of the time.
The thing from my end of the spectrum is that I hesitate to call the builds you've described 'uber'; that is, I feel that the general Paizo culture has a very different definition of optimization than self-described optimizers do. What I am used to seeing out of 'uber' builds are things like the Pauper of Smack (quadratic ability score damage per hit plus a spread of utility psionic powers), turning into a living planet in 6 seconds (not kidding), that sort of thing. One-trick ponies like you've described are kinda...I mean, yes, they can crank out the numbers, but what happens when the party has to go to a royal ball? Cross a chasm? Chase a teleporting demon?
So I suppose the reason I didn't answer is because I feel the question is framed incorrectly.
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I can think of 0 optimizers who would approve of "not needing skill ranks since you can just RP it". That's the kind of mentality we tend to hate. We're also not fond of defenseless glass cannons, unless we're just talking about dps in a given thread and not overall ability.
I agree with you. As a regular optimizer (and dare I say, gasp, min-maxer), the quote you have mortally offends me. The point is to be as good as you can possibly be within the confines of the rules... role play is just the personal flavor on top of that. It's like saying your DM allows your 7 strength Wizard to hit with his sword without rolling because you described what you were doing in an awesome manner. It makes my skin crawl a little bit to consider.
I always consider the highest pinnacle of optimization to be amazing at whatever it is you want to do while still being competent in other fields; that includes adequate defenses of some sort as well as at least one good party skill... or good combat ability of some sort if that is not your chosen focus.
I once saw a straight archer fighter be played with only the most obvious of feat choices.
He kinda made combat a joke.
Honestly Matt? If its in the game its fair to use, intention of the developer be damned. As much as I enjoy the constant stream of updates and continued support we get with current games I most certainly do not enjoy how developers use it to tamper with cool ideas and concepts that they didn't expect (yes Arc Systems Works, let's take away bottom tier Naoto's primary means of dealing damage. That makes sense). If the players enter into a gentlemen's agreement that an exploit is just too powerful and makes the game less fun for those involved then that's fine, but otherwise... Well, it would've been pretty lame if the Juggernaut Glitch had been banned simply for being a glitch.
I said unlike any other spot which means it was a mistake.What? Why does this have to be true? Being different does not automatically mean mistake
[inappropriate antisemitic joke]
and to answer your question of a build that would beat the animal oracle:
you become HELPLESS FOR 8 HOURS twice when you use your "combo"
Let me show you what helpless means:
You wont get your godlike perception modifier
You will be able to be trapped quite easily
So in short, i can use any of the following tactics:
be a spelcaster and cast prismatic sphere, then wish all the air out and suffocate you
or my personal favorite:
be lvl 7, have leadership, have a couple mooks stand in a circle, have them pass the adamantine rod as a free action... a lot... and then let go. (im pretty sure that theoritacally infite velocity adamantine coup-de-grace has to hurt)
you could also just put you in an underground room in an antimagic feild with wishes/miracles cast to ensure you cant get enough sleep. without spells, all the charisma in the world wont save you :)
Or you could be a lvl 16 alchemist with a few dozen simicalarium solar angels for enough wishes to breach your inner sanctum where you are resting and hit you with madness bombs (1d4 wis dmg no save) until you will never wake up :)
so yeah, take that
Good luck making it through their fast time demiplane. You should expect it to be one that is littered with permanent symbols, explosive runes, and simulacrums. Also... no offense, but generally speaking your tactics would be ineffective in an actual caster battle Bobo D. Prismatic Sphere is largely a non-issue for any of my level 20 casters to handle and wishing the air out of it wouldn't suffocate any of my level 20 casters. Also, the railgun commoner trick is well known for not working, there are no rules regarding it gaining velocity from the process and at best you will be able to make a regular attack with an adamantine rod. Finally, an underground room with an antimagic field is only a threat if for some reason the caster feels compelled to go there. Also... a Half-Elf Nature Oracle can have literally infinite Simulacrums so 16th level Alchemist is not threatening in the least. (Also pro-tip Ring of Inner Fortitude would render the WIS damage bombs completely ineffective and that's assuming you could hit the infinite AC the Nature Oracle has in the first place...)
So, yeah what I'm taking out of this is that you actually don't have a very high level system mastery Bobo D. I will in fact take that.
Right. Once you get past all the traps on the demiplane. And the explosive runes. And the Simulacrums. Care to explain how you plan on getting through all that? And don't think some mere Miracles is going to cut it when your confronted infinite wishes and worse. Sure if you can get to a helpless person they might die... but dying is a non-issue for my casters. Dying 7-8 times before breakfast is a minor inconvenience at best. So assuming you get through all the traps, runes and minions magically somehow (you can't) at best you'll have to deal with a returned and very pissed caster that can kill you effortlessly.
You really didn't think your clever plan all the way through did you? Also I wasn't insulting you. Stating that your tactics were ineffective in caster battles is an objective statement of fact.
Edit: Then the velocity of handing it at certain point would render the commoners unable to hold it. You don't get to selectively apply physics. I'm sorry but the commoner railgun does not work. (Especially since there's no rules that velocity adds to damage. I mean can you imagine how far some arrows have to travel to hit their targets and in less then 6 seconds... )
How about using things that happen in an actual game.
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How about using things that happen in an actual game.
I think this thread is rapidly losing any connection to the actual game, in favor of crusading against people who have badwrongfun and who can kick whose hypothetical roleplaying ass.
I'll get more on this subject but I will start by saying there is a distinct line between what I consider "Uber" and what I consider blatant exploits.
One of those things is related to spells
Also since we talked about it why the hell did they faq crane wing and the like and not paragon surge or infinite charisma loopholes? Seems odd to me if that's still in the air.
Also, like many other things in the game, the martial ability listed causes more balance in actual play.
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How about using things that happen in an actual game.I think this thread is rapidly losing any connection to the actual game, in favor of crusading against people who have badwrongfun and who can kick whose hypothetical roleplaying ass.
Certain people should just go play with Pun-pun.
By themselves.
Right. Once you get past all the traps on the demiplane. And the explosive runes. And the Simulacrums. Care to explain how you plan on getting through all that? And don't think some mere Miracles is going to cut it when your confronted infinite wishes and worse. Sure if you can get to a helpless person they might die... but dying is a non-issue for my casters. Dying 7-8 times before breakfast is a minor inconvenience at best. So assuming you get through all the traps, runes and minions magically somehow (you can't) at best you'll have to deal with a returned and very pissed caster that can kill you effortlessly.
You really didn't think your clever plan all the way through did you?
Edit: Then the velocity of handing it at certain point would render the commoners unable to hold it. You don't get to selectively apply physics. I'm sorry but the commoner railgun does not work. (Especially since there's no rules that velocity adds to damage. I mean can you imagine how far some arrows have to travel to hit their targets and in less then 6 seconds... )
i have an easier solution:
casts miracle
time dragon kills you at age three
bugs some god to bug me to cast miracle at some time in the future
problem solved :)
besides, you cant assume you have been left alone by the gods, or that he attacks you after a billion cycles. For all you know he gets asked to do this by a god at cycle number 4. Some deities are omniscient you know, and there is no logical reason to assume they would not act. You do not get to choose how the universe reacts to you breaking it. I hate to break it to you, but if you have been playing in games where you get to strut around acting like you can kill anything with your "super builds' that kill anything within 6 CR, not everything in the universe is within 6 CR, and you don't get to choose who gets pissed off by your arrogance. If you cant realize that it is not realistic for a lvl 10 zen archer to strut around like he can kill everything in sight, Then with all...
Gods have no stats (the closest you can get is Cthulhu or some of the demon lords all of whom are chumps) and the minute they are given some (say in an upcoming AP or bestiary) I will gladly kill them off. Basically none of your tactics rely on actual RAW actions that your character is capable of or even rules at all as far as I can tell. It's fine for the Half-Elf Nature Oracle 20 to consider a demiplane, permanent symbols and simulacrums, because those are actually things the character is capable of using RAW.
To separately address whether or not this "something that occurs in a real game", it's unlikely, but only because multiple awakenings at level 20 is a small portion of game play. A Half-Elf Lunar Oracle shares most of these tricks and is something that can (and has) seen a real game.
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Also, be kind to each other. We're all here for fun :-)