The player of my groups Paladin has let me know that he plans to spend the evening after the initial attack scanning the entire town with Detect Evil.
His goal is to find any remaining goblins that may be still hiding in town.
So I have two thoughts / questions as a result of this...
#1 - Is there anything in town that he might find doing a systematic search like this?
#2 - I know the goblin commando from Monster in the Closet would not show up on the Detect Evil, but I'm wondering if I should let him find the commando some how since he's taking the time to do a search?
Thanks
JD
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When the Paladin IMC did a Detect Evil in the glassworks, I had the goblin band radiate faint Evil. I'm thinking that Lamashtu-touched Goblins on a mission of Evil might radiate Evil if checked for, even if goblins normally wouldn't.
Given the range it would take more than one evening to properly scan the whole town I reckon, but I think it's an excellent idea to have him detect faint evil from the house with the closet goblin, have to argue with the parents to be let in - "But it's just the boy's imagination!" - and potentially save the family. If he succeeds you can make clear that he got one over on the AP. For me, if I were playing the Pally that'd be immensely satisfying. :)
I think departing from the RAW slightly here would be a very good call. You can describe it as "very faint evil, almost too little to register", and I don't think it sets a bad precedent.
I wouldn't reward him with stage time for this behaviour.
He would be wandering around town, stopping every now and then (10-20 mins), casting the spell over and over again. Depending on what evening means he--as a newly acclaimed hero of Sandpoint--should gather quite a crowd of children/onlookers spreading the word.
As I see it, he puts every citizen under general suspicion.
Especially if Father Zantus or Gaven Deverin get wind of this he should be asked to stop.
Maybe let him detect Jubrayl which might make for a good red herring.
Ruyan.
RuyanVe beat me to the punch, and I don't have time to read the entire Gazetteer right now, but aren't there a good half-dozen citizens of Sandpoint who will ping?
THAT could lead to some fun RP moments.
Also, I have to agree with RuyanVe about rewarding such behavior. You're encouraging the paladin to do this in every campaign, every time they're trying to find someone/something that is most likely evil. It might be fun in this context, and I have no issues with the "bending" of the rules to make it work. I'm far more concerned with setting a precedent of, "Oh, we no longer have to do legwork. We'll just spam the town with Detect Evil!"
The first half of Book 2 is a murder mystery. If you allow it this time, the paladin's going to do it a second time to try to track down the murderer, and your assortment of "usual suspects" is going to get off the hook when they don't ping. (Even farmers are worth XP, so you figure a serial killer will ping.)
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Not sure why the paladin should be discouraged. It's a core class ability and the player's justification - try to find hidden goblins sure sounds legitimate. Are you saying the ranger shouldn't try to track the goblins through town because it might make the townsfolk feel under suspicion? Or is a "short cut" past the "leg work?"
I would remind the player that the spell-like ability has limitations - normal goblins can't be found with it and various structures will block the affect (as pointed out by darkwarriorkarg) - though he could go inside some of those structures that are public... And that it will take a lot of time. But if he's still interested go for it. What are the townsfolk going to say? He's a PALADIN invested with holy power and chosen to serve as an exemplar to all sentient beings that doesn't lie. If he says he's using his powers to search for goblins, he's using his powers to search for goblins.
If its considered ill-mannered or disruptive for a paladin to behave that way, the paladin's own training as a paladin should have given him that insight and the DM should provide that guidance directly. He should not have to be chastised by comparatively minor functionaries like Zantus or Gaven.
I really shouldn't do paladin threads, I really shouldn't. I just can't help myself. "Hi. My name is Tim. I've been paladin-thread free for one day."
LOL. I think you're over-reading my stance.
It is definitely what a paladin SHOULD do.
Meta-gaming, it can detract from what the other players WANT to do.
So it's a question of, "We're a bunch of friends sitting around a table telling a story together," versus, "I am going to play this with absolute verisimilitude."
And it's more of the GM headaches it causes. "OK. I have to calculate roughly how long it would take for you to scan the entire town. And I have to find the NPCs you're going to ping on. And how you're going to deal with them."
It's much more like the "Take 10/Take 20" thread I was on a few weeks back -- it's not so much that it's illegal or that it isn't what the PC should do, it's, "How disruptive to the other players is this?"
Definitely meta-game from me, not in-game.
I'm not against it other than the fact that it leads to an idea of, "Hey, every time we're trying to find a hidden bad guy, let's just say, 'We spend all the time necessary to Detect Evil until we find him,' and let the GM worry about how long that is, how the guy reacts when he learns that we're doing it, and so forth."
I can see it leading to dissatisfaction from the other players fairly quickly, maybe even the second or third time the paladin does it.
EDIT: On the other hand, in our Carrion Crown game we had a dwarven druid who could sense secret doors in stone from something like 10' away. Rather than going through the pain of having him describe it every time, the GM just said, "I'm just putting all the stone secret doors on the map, but your buffs last half as long because you're always waiting on the dwarf."
Nice compromise.
But Sandpoint's a pretty big town. I don't think he could hit the whole town in a single day, much less a couple of hours...
EDIT 2: What I think is really funny is that I think I'd react *almost* exactly like the OP.
- Initial response: "I'm going to allow that, but I'm not going to take away session time to figure it all out, so I'll tell you the results next session, OK? And you know Detect Evil won't detect most goblins, right?"
- Legwork #1: How long would it really take?
- Legwork #2: Figure out who it would detect.
- Legwork #3: Post to this exact forum to find out whether I missed anything.
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And just because he runs across some people who do detect as evil, so what? They haven't done anything (that he can prove), so any action he takes other than saying "I've got my eye on you" is probably going to be the first step on his road to becoming an ex-paladin.
Derailment: Back in the good old days of Living Greyhawk, I lived in the Dyvers region. For those of you unfamiliar, it was basically a giant guild town that was second only in size and glory to the Free City itself. It was far scummier, though. My best comparison is that if the Free City of Greyhawk is New York City, Dyvers would be New Jersey. Anyway, the town has a reputation for deviousness and having a very cosmopolitan view on, well, just about everything. Case in point: there's no restrictions on who you worship, and anyone can have a chapel in the Temple District, if they're willing to file the necessary forms and pay the brib...er, fees. One of the largest and oldest churches in town is the Church to Nerull. He's one of the Flanaess' death gods, and he's not a nice one. You know the kind that are all like "Death is the natural end to all existence"? Yeah, that's not him. He's the sort that's like "Death is awesome, so go kill people and make them undead in my name."
And we have a whole church. Cathedral, actually.
Anyway, one adventure towards the end of the campaign has you on a mission, and you run into the High Priest of Nerull. His introduction to you is like this: "Let's get the formalities out of the way. Yes, I am evil. Yes, I worship an evil god. Now, let's do business." He doesn't ask you to do anything horrible at all - it's a long story, but he couches his request in very positive terms, and even offers you the exact same amount of money that the first person did.
Gotta love this town.
Thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate it.
My main concern with the player doing this was the possibility of him turning something up in the process I hadn't thought of which is why I came here.
As far as I can tell, he might find Jubrayl, Aliver and that's about it using the spell as written. Anything/one that I missed? I looked through the Appendix 2 in the AE RotRL book.
I also wanted opinions on the possibility of him some how "beating" the monster in the closet encounter because he had thought to look and taken the time. I kinda figured it would be a great way to develop a relationship with some of the NPC's.
I also thought it might be fun to have him meet Shayliss and maybe some other night owl NPC's as he wanders around.
We had a discussion last night via email after he mentioned that plan and I made sure he was aware of how Detect Evil would work and that unless it was a very powerful goblin he would not find it.
The party had already joined sheriff Hemlock and some of the town watch walking through town checking alleys, barrels, etc, etc to find any stragglers. So this would be 10 or 11 at night that the PC is wandering around.
JD
I also wanted opinions on the possibility of him some how "beating" the monster in the closet encounter because he had thought to look and taken the time. I kinda figured it would be a great way to develop a relationship with some of the NPC's.I also thought it might be fun to have him meet Shayliss and maybe some other night owl NPC's as he wanders around.
Your thoughts were good.
I'd definitely have Det Evil ping a Goblin before it pinged Jhubrayl Vhiski. Goblins are way more Evil. The RAW on hd is a rough guide on amount of evilness that shouldn't straitjacket whether an NPC pings, IMO.
Thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate it.
My main concern with the player doing this was the possibility of him turning something up in the process I hadn't thought of which is why I came here.
As far as I can tell, he might find Jubrayl, Aliver and that's about it using the spell as written. Anything/one that I missed? I looked through the Appendix 2 in the AE RotRL book.
I also wanted opinions on the possibility of him some how "beating" the monster in the closet encounter because he had thought to look and taken the time. I kinda figured it would be a great way to develop a relationship with some of the NPC's.
I also thought it might be fun to have him meet Shayliss and maybe some other night owl NPC's as he wanders around.
We had a discussion last night via email after he mentioned that plan and I made sure he was aware of how Detect Evil would work and that unless it was a very powerful goblin he would not find it.
The party had already joined sheriff Hemlock and some of the town watch walking through town checking alleys, barrels, etc, etc to find any stragglers. So this would be 10 or 11 at night that the PC is wandering around.
JD
As I said, I think you're wise, and I think this thread was a great way to start a discussion.
But here's the math: Mainland Sandpoint is VERY roughly a 900'x1100' rectangle, so let's say a million square feet. We're just trying for an order of magnitude here. A 60' cone with a 90-degree angle has an area of a bit over 2800 square feet. Again, let's be generous and call it 3000. So if the paladin is absolutely perfect in his coverage, it's 333 castings at 6 seconds each, or 2000 seconds, which sounds OK.
Except it's not going to be perfect. He has to move. There are roadblocks. You can't tile a rectangle with quarter circles. So 10% efficiency would honestly be about the tops I'd expect from an exercise like this. This puts it at 20,000 seconds, or around 5 1/2 hours.
It's certainly do-able, and it's a lot less time than I was expecting, but it's not a, "We're going to do this between 10 and 11 at night" exercise.
But at least now we know it's possible, it's reasonable, and a paladin could easily do it in a single night.
Have at!
The 10 - 11 was just what time he will be starting. He said he would work on it till finished, how ever long it took.
JD
Say "I'm going to pull out the Random Die of Fate" and roll a d12. If he rolls a 1, he detects evil... and it's a pigeon. (In fact, it's a certain Quasit's familiar.) If he rolls a 2, then he finds the goblin hiding in the house. 3-4 he finds a couple goblins hiding in the town that would have been found by the guard later that night. 5-12, nada.
Alternatively, you could pull out the map, say "point where you're going to search," and then go from there. I still think pinging a pigeon would be hilarious. ;)
It lasts ten minutes per level if you concentrate
It's still 6 seconds per round (a standard action to concentrate and a move action to get to the next "scanning" point), so I'm still going to argue that it's a reasonable "order of magnitude" fudge...
One thing about a paladin's detect evil ability: it's a spell-like ability, meaning that it's obvious when being used.
I had a paladin in my party when I ran Burnt Offerings, and the player suggested the same thing. I told the player that, while it would be possible, it would be both extremely impractical, and the populace of the town would very much not appreciate a paladin using mind-scanning magic on everyone in town. Also: goblins are certainly evil by nature, but aren't powerful enough to emit an aura of supernatural evil... Also, being evil isn't a crime: doing evil is punishable, but detect evil won't discover evil activity.
That's not to nerf the class ability, but to set reasonable expectations on how the ability works and how NPCs would react to being subjected to it.
I mean, once they encountered him, the Skinsaw Man lit up like a Christmas tree...
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I'd actually go a different direction with this: use it as a chance to point out that detect evil doesn't go through walls, but let him detect some evil in the graveyard, leading to that encounter.
Otherwise, I might let him stumble into a couple goblin stragglers. Not the one in the closet, though, because that gives him the wrong idea of how his power works.
A few red herrings might not hurt, but almost everyone is going to be in their houses at that hour.
In my campaign, I actually had the entire town feel... wrong under detect evil
Cheers!
Landon
One thing about a paladin's detect evil ability: it's a spell-like ability, meaning that it's obvious when being used.
I had a paladin in my party when I ran Burnt Offerings, and the player suggested the same thing. I told the player that, while it would be possible, it would be both extremely impractical, and the populace of the town would very much not appreciate a paladin using mind-scanning magic on everyone in town. Also: goblins are certainly evil by nature, but aren't powerful enough to emit an aura of supernatural evil... Also, being evil isn't a crime: doing evil is punishable, but detect evil won't discover evil activity.
That's not to nerf the class ability, but to set reasonable expectations on how the ability works and how NPCs would react to being subjected to it.
I mean, once they encountered him, the Skinsaw Man lit up like a Christmas tree...
** spoiler omitted **
Exactly why would the populace object again? He's not reading their minds, he's searching for active malevolence. Either the townsfolk know about paladin powers and understand what's happening (this seems most likely) or they don't know about paladin powers in which case a paladin of a good diety tells them he's using his magic to search for goblins. Either way, hard to see any reason for an objection. Only people likely to object are those likely to get detected. Please direct your objections to the Mayor or Sheriff. So your name can be added to the list.
And detect evil absolutely DOES detect evil activity. Quoting the core rulebook: "Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." If you are in the midst of doing evil even if you yourself are not evil, you will detect as evil if the aura is strong enough.
So the paladin spends a few hours wandering the town - he won't find anything because there isn't much to find and the buildings block most interesting points. If he says he's forcing his way into private residences - that's out of bounds. But I don't see why he wouldn't spend a few hours at the various bars and visit most of the merchants in town, just to get the lay of the land. If a paladin is going to be staying in a town for a while this sure seems like something he would do. If he assaults anyone simply because they detect as evil - that's out of bounds too. But this is why he has this power - part of its purpose is to put the fear of God into evildoers.
Oh and Landon Winkler's idea (in the Spoiler) is awesome.
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Thanks again for all the ideas and suggestions.
I figured I would share what happened for those that were interested.
I used the fact that Detect Evil can detect pick up Evil activity since the goblin on his own would not be detected.
Based on a random roll I determined the paladin would be in the correct area to possibly detect the goblin as he was planning what he was going to do to the little boy and his annoying dog. The paladin got a natural 20 on his perception check, which allowed him to both be scanning the right area but also hear the noise of the dog going crazy in the house. It was the Natural 20 on this check that made me allow him to "beat" the Monster in the closet encounter.
He was able to tell which house based on the noise and proceeded to knock on the door at 1am in the morning. When the husband answered the paladin again had a 20 plus Diplomacy check to explain why he was there and asked to come in.
Once in the room he taunted the goblin in goblin to make sure it was there. Having confirmed the presence of the goblin he asked the husband to fetch someone from the watch while he held the door.
When the watch arrived they searched the closet, found the hole and with a little work goaded the goblin in to attacking. From their it was a short fight that the goblin lost.
Oh and the paladin did give the goblin several chances to surrender which the goblin ignored.
The paladin was stopped by several watch as he wandered the town to find out what he was doing, as well as helping a drunk towns person back to there home.
JD
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I think that if a player has lucky die rolls and put in that effort? Then prevailing over the encounter-as-written is more than worthwhile. And let's face it - it makes the paladin into an even greater hero... which means when the Paladin inevitably dies the player will want him brought back. Eating into player resources. ;)
Tangent101, you are my GMHero. I just thought you should know.