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When do you use gear like this and is it worth the risk?
By standard equipment I mean the same gear everyone and their mother has; the optimizers choice: cloak of resistance, boots of /yawn speed, two handed weapon (almost always a great sword), Str belt, caster stat headband, we have all heard the exact same list of equipment that makes every optimized 'character' look the same. The wizard looks just like that ranger who looks just like that paladin who is merely a clone of that druid. We'll ignore how their tactics and philosophies emulate the above as that is the subject of another discussion.
But when do you find yourself using a different item in the shoulders slot like a cloak of fiery vanishing, elven kind, the cacoon cloak or pauldrons of the bull? What about Nightmare boots, boots of levitation, hand of glory, the feychild necklace, or the security belt?
Certainly there are sets of equipment and character builds that are only functional in home games as opposes to society games (but please prove me wrong here). Yet, I still feel that these magic items were made to do more than fill space in a book but when I see character sheets or even worse, read suggestions on the boards, the same equipment is suggested for every character regardless of race, class or build. I have literally seen people suggest (after the op specifically said not to) the exact type of suggestion not wanted. In each of those suggestions the standard equipment list (and character builds/classes, etc) comes up. Are there no viable, non-niche character builds that can actually use the other 98% of the published equipment and do well?
What are your experiences?
There's a certain awkwardness to a treadmill that likes you to have the certain gear at certain times, and your bonuses aren't really bonuses but instead keeping you up to par. That's why you see the same suggestions over and over, cloak of resistance and so on. When you look at that from a meta you wonder why you have those magic items at all. Another thing is many magic items don't do something cool or amazing on their own, but actually emulate a spell.
That said, I think magic items should do something cool and flashy and be interesting and those are among my favorites. Always thought the +x gig was boring and its so much more fun when your magic items do something!
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For me it really depends. In home games the issue of the treadmill always feels less manditory in my mind since as GM I can give out more goodies that might be outside of WBL or as optimal because I can accomidate my players in other ways (longer fights over multiple encounters, hired allies, buffed enemies, prefight sabotage, etc.) but in things like PFS where players and GM's have less room to bend and mold the game to fit the players I can see this becoming more of an issue.
Honestly what I think the biggest problem is with them beyond that slowly creeping requirement that every group must have them is how the mechanics help enforce buying them. This is primarily done through pricing since most of those core items are not only solid items but way cheaper then some of the more weird and risky items. Like why would someone get a cowardly crouching cloak over a cloak of resistance when it is a not only a slightly larger risk to have (has a slightly smaller window of use and a weak DC)when they could score a resistance cloak that is pretty reliable and constantly useful for almost half the price?
This is kind of the same problem all the other ones have as well, where they do some crazy off the wall interesting things that make you want to play with but their price and slot make them too much of a risk for someone to invest in with their gp unless they are just given it.
So really if you want to try to entice players to give up items like the big 6 in favor of some unknown and potentially less useful items then a good place to start is lowering the prices for them a bit.
On casters I'll try it. I can get everything i need on a caster from a spell, it just costs a few extra slots. On a martial.. yeah. Everything goes into weapon stat booster and AC.
I just give my players some cool gear, but also give them enough money for the necessary stuff.
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I have one pfs character with a build that leaves no room for any of the big six. I have a second one who is debating a flavorful item or a big six in its stead.
But I am really leaning toward the flavor because nobody ever uses the item in question. Like ever. I figure that if I don't use it on this character, then I will never see it used.
I have one pfs character with a build that leaves no room for any of the big six. I have a second one who is debating a flavorful item or a big six in its stead.
But I am really leaning toward the flavor because nobody ever uses the item in question. Like ever. I figure that if I don't use it on this character, then I will never see it used.
How bad is the item in question
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It's the cloak of fiery vanishing for a flame oracle with molten skin (and resist/protection from elements).
The oracle class gets two poor saves and this one starts with a poor wisdom to boot! However, he has a solid Dex and con and I don't mind actually having a couple of weaknesses. I have been playing monks mostly and they have been failing all of the important saves at all levels of play, anyway. So this shouldn't be any different.
The other character is a maneuver master with pauldrons of the bull. They don't add to the CMB but they allow for an infinite amount of double rolls for overrun. Kind of important to an overrun build. But he's safer being a monk since they have good saves before stats.
I just feel that defaulting to the same gear repeatedly nueters flavor, versatility and how potentially interesting a character is. I barely remember most peoples characters that I have role played with because they are either optimized robots or really generic. What I notice and remember are the people who bring great character personality and role playing, the people who use something that everyone else hasn't used, the people with uncommon powers and abilities, etc.
A cloak of fiery vanishing or a character built around running people over (and doing it well) is memorable and useful. The overrun for tactical reasons and the cloak really sounds like it can create some interesting combats and be fun.
I like how a single item like these can, by itself, add to a characters identity or really reinforce a theme within a character. But I admit, just wearing a cloak of resistance and calling it a day means increased survivability. But if you subscribe to the best defense is a good offense concept, you don't need the cloak...anything in that slot which aids your offense would better.
In my game, and my friend's game, we eschew the Big 6 magic system by transferring those bonuses over to character development, which frees up space for nifty/weird/niche items.
It's the cloak of fiery vanishing for a flame oracle with molten skin (and resist/protection from elements).
The oracle class gets two poor saves and this one starts with a poor wisdom to boot! However, he has a solid Dex and con and I don't mind actually having a couple of weaknesses. I have been playing monks mostly and they have been failing all of the important saves at all levels of play, anyway. So this shouldn't be any different.
The other character is a maneuver master with pauldrons of the bull. They don't add to the CMB but they allow for an infinite amount of double rolls for overrun. Kind of important to an overrun build. But he's safer being a monk since they have good saves before stats.
I just feel that defaulting to the same gear repeatedly nueters flavor, versatility and how potentially interesting a character is. I barely remember most peoples characters that I have role played with because they are either optimized robots or really generic. What I notice and remember are the people who bring great character personality and role playing, the people who use something that everyone else hasn't used, the people with uncommon powers and abilities, etc.
A cloak of fiery vanishing or a character built around running people over (and doing it well) is memorable and useful. The overrun for tactical reasons and the cloak really sounds like it can create some interesting combats and be fun.
I like how a single item like these can, by itself, add to a characters identity or really reinforce a theme within a character. But I admit, just wearing a cloak of resistance and calling it a day means increased survivability. But if you subscribe to the best defense is a good offense concept, you don't need the cloak...anything in that slot which aids your offense would better.
Monks have all good saves; you tack on a Cloak of Resistance and a Wisdom Headband + Dexterity/Constitution Belt, and you practically have to roll 2's and 3's to fail saves. Unless you're dumping stats (which is silly to do as a Monk, since they're quite MAD), their saves aren't crap. It's actually their only redeeming factor.
I wouldn't bother with the Fire cloak, especially if you have Resist/Fire, since having strong enough Resist/Fire means you take no damage from Fire, ergo the Cloak wouldn't function. I'd stick with the Resist cloak, since the static bonuses from that will save your bacon more often. Even Pauldrons of the Serpent would be better, since it synergizes well with Mobility (or provoking AoO's at any time for that matter), and gives you some CMD benefits that the Pauldrons of the Bull don't cover.
Pauldrons of the Bull aren't too great, but are amazing if you are a Bull Rush specialist; being able to roll twice and take the better result for every Bull Rush you make is a very powerful effect, almost quintessential, really.
But the Juggernaut Pauldrons are a really awesome shoulder slot; granting a static +4 CMD, the Ferocity Monster ability (who needs Diehard now?), Enlarge Person as a Standard Action (versus the normal Full-Round Action, and at-will, too!), as well as the Deadly Juggernaut spell 3/day as an Immediate Action, which makes you stronger and stronger with each enemy you defeat, makes for a very unique and powerful shoulder slot. Although it's very costly, 40,000 Gold seems like childsplay compared to what you get for it.
You're also forgetting there are rules that allow you to combine effects of items into one. I can take the Juggernaut Pauldrons with a Cloak of Resistance +5, and have a pair of 77,500 Juggernaut Pauldrons of Resistance. Certainly not viable in the game, but when you reach the endgame with no real limit to WBL, it's practically the best Martial shoulder slot in the game.
For interesting gear get Boots of the Cat. For 1,000 GP you need never worry about heights......EVER. Even most 1st level characters could jump off a 100 foot cliff and walk away.
Also I love the Hat of Human Guise. Better that a Hat of Disguise as you look like a totally different Small race or even a human kid. What better way to evade pursuit? All for the low, low, price of 900 gp!
Wow! A first level character with rich parents could streak through the streets of their home settlement wearing only this hat! Does it give the illusion of being clothed?
Wow! A first level character with rich parents could streak through the streets of their home settlement wearing only this hat! Does it give the illusion of being clothed?
The description does not say exactly. But hey, a naked Gnome isn't going to surprise anyone.
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@goldedition, I have a gnome who uses a hat of disguise. But having the one of human guise seems pretty neat as well. I will have to check it out.
@Darksol, you utterly misunderstood most of what I said or I was ridiculously unclear at presenting myself. Allow me to clarify.
I have two characters.
Both are in pfs.
One character is a Flame Oracle.
The other character is a Maneuver Master that uses Overrun, not bull rush.
The flame oracle is debating between the cloak of fiery vanishing and a cloak of resistance. The flame oracle can expect a fire resistance of 20 without magical aid. The flame oracles fire damage will penetrate this resistance and be capable of triggering the cloak of fiery vanishing, should I so choose.
The monk has good saves (obviously) because he is a monk. The monk there for feels comfortable not wearing a cloak of resistance and wearing pauldrons of the bull.
Sadly, I recently just checked the pauldrons only to discover that somehow, over the course of several posts, the pauldrons don't apply to overrun. The item makes no mention of overrun and yet, somehow, I (and others) missed that. This does, substantially, hurt the build and makes it much less viable (by a lot). 6 levels of play and now I discover that a critical component no longer exists. :( May have to temporarily retire another guy (until new gear comes out).
I agree, juggernauts pauldrons are pretty neat. I have long since wanted a pair but the cost is great and none of my characters are built to really use them within the scope of pfs.
Interesting trumps mechanics. As a GM, I far prefer mixing "ho-hum" items with at least an equal amount of unique or otherwise interesting items. I also accept that more twinky players may end up trading those items for cloaks of resistance at their first opportunity--that's fine! And I also try to make sure that at least half the oddball stuff is relevant im at least three future situations that the players have a high probability of ending up in. Handing out nothing but swim flippers and scuba gear in a desert game is just rude.
Haven't really had any complaints about this approach yet, so I'll stick with it for now.
@goldedition, I have a gnome who uses a hat of disguise. But having the one of human guise seems pretty neat as well. I will have to check it out.
@Darksol, you utterly misunderstood most of what I said or I was ridiculously unclear at presenting myself. Allow me to clarify.
I have two characters.
Both are in pfs.
One character is a Flame Oracle.
The other character is a Maneuver Master that uses Overrun, not bull rush.
The flame oracle is debating between the cloak of fiery vanishing and a cloak of resistance. The flame oracle can expect a fire resistance of 20 without magical aid. The flame oracles fire damage will penetrate this resistance and be capable of triggering the cloak of fiery vanishing, should I so choose.
The monk has good saves (obviously) because he is a monk. The monk there for feels comfortable not wearing a cloak of resistance and wearing pauldrons of the bull.Sadly, I recently just checked the pauldrons only to discover that somehow, over the course of several posts, the pauldrons don't apply to overrun. The item makes no mention of overrun and yet, somehow, I (and others) missed that. This does, substantially, hurt the build and makes it much less viable (by a lot). 6 levels of play and now I discover that a critical component no longer exists. :( May have to temporarily retire another guy (until new gear comes out).
I agree, juggernauts pauldrons are pretty neat. I have long since wanted a pair but the cost is great and none of my characters are built to really use them within the scope of pfs.
Boots of the Mastodon apply to overrun :)
I very frequently only use gear that drops as loot or received as reward, on my characters. While this frequently makes them less... specialized... they tend to end up quite a bit stronger overall than my companions simply by virtue of having nearly double the wealth.
i.e. If you are selling off everything for half value, buying all of your gear at full value, and I am keeping what's available if it's useful/usable by my character, guess how that affects WBL...?
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For interesting gear get Boots of the Cat. For 1,000 GP you need never worry about heights......EVER. Even most 1st level characters could jump off a 100 foot cliff and walk away.
Also I love the Hat of Human Guise. Better that a Hat of Disguise as you look like a totally different Small race or even a human kid. What better way to evade pursuit? All for the low, low, price of 900 gp!
I have several characters with Boots of the Cat.
They always seem to take GM's by surprise.
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In order to control the blah-factor, you could say that every magic item I the game is unique. There is only one +1 cloak, only one +2 ring, etc. After that player would have to turn to flavorful-but-less-optimized items. Obviously only works in a low magic setting where PCs can't craft. Or they could craft, but every item requires a special unique component.
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The cloaks of resistance are just too good for their price. Because there are not that many ways to boost your saves AND because saves become more and more important as you reach higher levels.
Other "standard" items are not completely necessary unless your GM makes them so, for example by having monsters so good at hitting you that you need every little AC boost you can get.
If you want to make the "standard" items less common, just up their prices. When your players start looking at the other cheaper items, you may be amazed at their creativity ;-)
In order to control the blah-factor, you could say that every magic item I the game is unique. There is only one +1 cloak, only one +2 ring, etc. After that player would have to turn to flavorful-but-less-optimized items. Obviously only works in a low magic setting where PCs can't craft. Or they could craft, but every item requires a special unique component.
So to control the balhblah factor you have to shoot people in the foot? Wouldn't it be easier just to give your cloak of fiery awesomeness +2 resistance bonus? Or something scaling if you don't want it to be thrown away?
In order to control the blah-factor, you could say that every magic item I the game is unique. There is only one +1 cloak, only one +2 ring, etc. After that player would have to turn to flavorful-but-less-optimized items. Obviously only works in a low magic setting where PCs can't craft. Or they could craft, but every item requires a special unique component.So to control the balhblah factor you have to shoot people in the foot? Wouldn't it be easier just to give your cloak of fiery awesomeness +2 resistance bonus? Or something scaling if you don't want it to be thrown away?
Sometimes players like being shot in the foot; it gives them something new and interesting to work with outside of what they expect and deal with on a regular basis, and that can be a lot of fun.
Granted, some players don't, and even if they do it might not be something that they want all the time (if you're constantly gimping them in the same way each time it's as creatively stimulating as using the big six). In those cases where you want to encourage creativity without taking anything away from them then you can give them a cloak of fiery awareness +2 resistance bonus. That's somewhat dangerous, though, since for it to work you're giving them something better (no matter how small in that betterness) for the same price. Again, what you do and how you do it depends heavily on the group.
Sometimes players like being shot in the foot;
I think if we took a pole most people don't want to be shot in the foot. Your foot tends to bleed. And hurt...
More seriously, it might be more accurate to say people like having the option of new and interesting things, and that some people like to have the option to have character flaws, but not that people like to shoot themselves to get new and interesting things. Actually having to shoot yourself in the foot, isn't a good thing. Having interesting options is though, and having character flaws as an option, is something that is cool. Mandate no. Which is what you said in the second paragraph really, don't mean to insult, just type it out in a clearer way.
Something to remember is that better doesn't always mean broken, and that the main goal is fun, which is why the +2 cloak of resistance is so bleh but the cloak of fiery awesomeness is so Wahoo! but why it sucks that the +2 cloak is what your supposed to get.
Magic items remind me a lot of stat creation. If you want to control what you get you pick point buy. If you want a unique character that you will have to mold and adapt to you roll stats.
Magic items are the same way. If your players like to play characters that evolve over time sometimes unexpectedly, only hand out magic as treasure and rarely let it be bought or traded. You will probably get some amazing creativity but not necessarily optimization.
If your players just can't stand not having the perfect mix of magic for every occasion then give them access to the magic mart.
Cloaks of Resistance, Rings of Protection and Amulets of Armor are very pratical and worth the money, but so boring. If I was running a low magic campaign I'd be tempted to remove these items altogether and introduce equivalent scaling AC and Save bonuses to every character to keep everything CR-appropriate, reducing WBL to compensate.
One example of interesting gear is a Cloak of Displacement (minor) for permanent concealment. Permanent 20% miss chance is better than most AC boosts. It's an integral part of Moonlight Stalker Feint Rogue builds, but giving up the Cloak of Protection is nasty.
There are loads of situationally useful things, like muleback cords or a dozen others, that miss out because they're not combat orientated and one of the "big six" occupies the same item slot.
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Or make cloaks, rings, etc, work like weapons and armor. Start with a +1 to make it magic. Then add on the other abilities to give them flavor. Cloak of the Manta Ray becomes +1 or +2 Cloak of the Manta Ray. Some people carry around +1 swords, but a lot have +1 holy keen shock-burst swords too. It's a different slippery slope, but at least people would have stuff that's more flavorful than plain old +1 cloaks.
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This is why I love the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium so much. It suggests that you can upgrade a big six item without the 150% cost of the cheaper property. Thus greatly increases the likelihood that an ite competing with a big 6 slot may still be used. It also lists alternative slot for many if the big 6 items. Go on and buy the interesting cloak, you could wear a vest of resistance instead. This is also why I prise the backwards compatibility of Pathfinder. I am not saying everything converts easily but in this case, it is simple. Those who do not learn from history ate doomed.to repeat it. Nit everything from 3.5 is a villain. Some of the 3.5 published material is gold that deserves incorporation into your Pathfinder game. Pathfinder society refusing to use 3.5 material and resulting in boring magic item selection is a good example of how valuable this 3.5 suggestion is and why it deserves a spot in our home games. The lack of worth while Pathfinder items us also a sign of how much if a failure UE is. I was so looking forward to it and felt it was full of garbage. It has maybe around 10 items in the whole book worth picking up, several of witch are banned in society play. The 3.5 MIC has many duds also but more goto items than UE.
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@MrSin I tend to run low magic campaigns with very gritty worlds. I like to keep leveling slow, after the first, too (though my worlds are sandboxed and players can level as fast as they want if they are up to the challenge required for that amazing exp). However, my worlds have very powerful magic in them (despite there not being much of it). There are spellcasters but I neuter divine ones, making them flat out worse. I inform players that there is no magic mart, divine casters are decidedly at a disadvantage, I even Nerf or adjust some schools of magic for flavor.
You know what? I've had rather large numbers of people attempting to join my game knowing this was the case. Some of those people were munchkin players, others were totally casual. Once the number of players exceeded 12 (with nearly as many more waiting or asking to join) I had to set up another couple of tables and reduce my own groups size due to managing all the people.
Guess what, though? We still had people choosing spellcasters. Even divine ones. If the game is good enough, the stories are compelling and people feel like they will get to shine as a character, any given detail (equipment or abilities) can become incendental. The party, through around 7th level had a +1 longsword and a staff of life (They took a huge risk and did a side quest and discovered a hidden trove of long forgotten magic gear). See, I did a combination of planting specific items that were relevant to the group (even if they should never be able to get those items or know about them, etc) and random treasure table rolls.
Speaking of which, when did we stop doing that?
Wbl is nice as is custom deciding your gear. But along the way, where has that excitement and mystery gone from seeing those % dice roll 100 and watching the DM re-roll them one or *gasp* even two more times? When that item is cursed or some big expensive thing that nobody can use and there isn't another caster to sell it to within leagues? Worse, when it is something good or bad but nobody can identify the thing?
I miss it. I miss running around with random stuff intil I eventually get my specific goals.
When do you use gear like this and is it worth the risk?
By standard equipment I mean the same gear everyone and their mother has; the optimizers choice: cloak of resistance, boots of /yawn speed, two handed weapon (almost always a great sword), Str belt, caster stat headband, we have all heard the exact same list of equipment that makes every optimized 'character' look the same. The wizard looks just like that ranger who looks just like that paladin who is merely a clone of that druid. We'll ignore how their tactics and philosophies emulate the above as that is the subject of another discussion.
But when do you find yourself using a different item in the shoulders slot like a cloak of fiery vanishing, elven kind, the cacoon cloak or pauldrons of the bull? What about Nightmare boots, boots of levitation, hand of glory, the feychild necklace, or the security belt?
Certainly there are sets of equipment and character builds that are only functional in home games as opposes to society games (but please prove me wrong here). Yet, I still feel that these magic items were made to do more than fill space in a book but when I see character sheets or even worse, read suggestions on the boards, the same equipment is suggested for every character regardless of race, class or build. I have literally seen people suggest (after the op specifically said not to) the exact type of suggestion not wanted. In each of those suggestions the standard equipment list (and character builds/classes, etc) comes up. Are there no viable, non-niche character builds that can actually use the other 98% of the published equipment and do well?
What are your experiences?
For me it varies by build. I do make sure my primary attribute booster is maxed out, and my defense is high. Another factor is campaign difficulty, and item availability.