From the Second Ed. Spell Compendium
Cure Wounds
Lost Spell, some rare wizards (and good witches?) are reputed to have access to priestlike curing abilities.
And I believe in Greyhawk one of the Mage's did formulate a way to cast CLW. But then this was when spells had an 'availability' and scarcity.
Really? What level is Cure Moderate Wounds? It's level 2 for a cleric, level 3 for a druid, ranger or paladin. Should a wizard be a better or worse healer than a druid?Cure * Wounds is already playtested, and its level is determined
You left out alchemists, bards, inquisitors, and witches, all of whom get it as a 2nd level spell.
However, you are perfectly correct in your larger point that the "correct" level of a spell for members of a class that does not currently have access to said spell is, at best, indeterminate.
So it's level 2 for more "pure" spellcasters, and level 3 for more martial spellcasters (who all get some kind of companion). That'd put it as level 2 (likely) for wizards.
The flip side of this, which isn't really being addressed, is that clerics should probably have access to almost all of the wizard spells, too (if you go by the idea that "they should have learned/stolen/gotten them by now if they could"). Divine classes have the same rules for Original Research as Arcane, as per page 221. Where are all my divine fireballs, lightning bolts, magic missiles?
But there, you're dealing with religious dogma, schisms, heresies, all crazy social differences within the mortal faiths of divine beings. And by the same token, those spells have to be accepted by the larger religious organization. The Inquisition or the Reconquista show we don't need a giant rock from the sky to obliterate or suppress knowledge.
On a side note, I can even see fantasy churches prosecuting crusades against arcane casters who are usurping their divine gift of healing-- making it a religious crime for wizards to heal (and thus discouraging healing magical research). Suddenly, the taboo makes more sense because arcane types generally don't want to the target of a mob.
The point is that the division of healing between arcane and divine is completely artificial, but explainable with social pressures and events. Truthfully, nothing prevents a caster from inventing spells except time, resources, and hidebound GM fiat.
-Ben.
But doesn't the same hide-bound GM fiat mean that bard, summoner, witch spell lists be unrestricted? Since why couldn't they use Spell Research?
But doesn't the same hide-bound GM fiat mean that bard, summoner, witch spell lists be unrestricted? Since why couldn't they use Spell Research?
The research sections of the Core Rules, pages 219 and 221, cover wizards and divine casters; they can research out to their heart's content. Sorcerers and Bards aren't given the same leeway, page 220:
With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring.
Spontaneous casters are not given the same research options, but they can ask for GM permission-- I'm not sure if that's better or worse, honestly.
Switching out spells on their list seems like a good opportunity for an incantation. (hmmmm...to the word processor!)
-Ben.
So what we are really talking about here is a class-less magic system.
That's a great thing for an RPG. But it isn't D&D/Pathfinder. The real reason that Wizards can't cast the Cure spells is that it is one of the truths of the game. Just like how Paladins are LG champions of good and Bards cast magic through performance.
But doesn't the same hide-bound GM fiat mean that bard, summoner, witch spell lists be unrestricted? Since why couldn't they use Spell Research?The research sections of the Core Rules, pages 219 and 221, cover wizards and divine casters; they can research out to their heart's content. Sorcerers and Bards aren't given the same leeway, page 220:
With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring.Spontaneous casters are not given the same research options, but they can ask for GM permission-- I'm not sure if that's better or worse, honestly.
Switching out spells on their list seems like a good opportunity for an incantation. (hmmmm...to the word processor!)
-Ben.
Interesting - so Paladins could research Infernal Healing, of course they couldn't really cast it. ;)
That's a great thing for an RPG. But it isn't D&D/Pathfinder. The real reason that Wizards can't cast the Cure spells is that it is one of the truths of the game. Just like how Paladins are LG champions of good and Bards cast magic through performance.
No, it's there as a part of Pathfinder, it's just up to the GM to decide what the costs, time required, and DCs are for successful research. (again, page 219, Core Rules) This is more of that tradition/paradigm thing that's so hard to overcome.
Interesting - so Paladins could research Infernal Healing, of course they couldn't really cast it. ;)
Really, the blood/radiating alignment thing is cosmetic. You could just as easily make it celestial healing, using an angel's blood/tears/feathers/whatever and have the target radiate good for the duration.
-Ben.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So what we are really talking about here is a class-less magic system.
That's a gross oversimplification. Do class features, BAB, HD, saves, etc. mean nothing?
Mind you, I'm not actually advocating "Everyone has access to all spells" -- I'm just pointing out that there's more to casters than their spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So what we are really talking about here is a class-less magic system.That's a gross oversimplification. Do class features, BAB, HD, saves, etc. mean nothing?
And while I disagree with Tequila Sunrise on other points, on this, I agree. I am not advocating a class-less magic system for Pathfinder.
-Ben.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So what we are really talking about here is a class-less magic system.That's a gross oversimplification. Do class features, BAB, HD, saves, etc. mean nothing?And while I disagree with Tequila Sunrise on other points, on this, I agree. I am not advocating a class-less magic system for Pathfinder.
-Ben.
Oh, and also, casting method is a great way to differentiate caster classes -- are you a spont caster with a limited number of spells known? A wizard-type with unlimited potential limited by logistics? A prep caster with daily access to your entire spell list? A psionic variation of any one of those? Or possibly something else entirely?
So yeah, there are plenty of good reasons why wizards might not commonly know cure * wounds in a world after a massive planetary impact and a terrible dark age, but not one of them is "because it's just not possible."
You make some interesting points. I'm not sure they're enough to sway hearts and minds -- particularly in the case of DMs with predetermined ideas about spell research -- but thanks for explaining your reasoning!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Horseapples. It's so easy to snuff out information, especially specialized information like spellcasting, it's not even funny.
I'll give you three examples out of our own history.
1. The destruction of the Library of Alexandria. (dates vary)
2. The destruction of the libraries of Constantinople in 1204.
3. The destruction of the libraries of Baghdad in 1258.In each instance, manuscripts and texts of rare knowledge were completely and utterly eliminated from the world. We don't have a full collection of the works of Archimedes (or many other famous authors from Antiquity) specifically because of how easy it was to destroy knowledge until the invention of the printing press. The number of books from before Gutenberg is surprisingly small. One of these books, the Archimedes Palimpest, was actually scraped clean and reused for an illuminated religious text before modern science discovered the lost classic beneath the newer work.
But heck, I'll give you an historical event in Golarion which could have easily resulted in the massive loss of accumulated knowledge:
Earthfall.
Spells of original research require instruction from master to apprentice (Pop quiz: Who was your last wizard character's master? Nine out of ten players I've ever asked at conventions or home games don't even consider this.) and that requires a sustained, extensive transmission through the ages to disperse the information enough to make it a commonly known spell. The amount of deaths in the wake of Earthfall had to be staggering. Given that priests were around before Earthfall, healing had to be available, and so it makes sense that cure * wounds was probably an uncommon arcane spell. How many wizards didn't survive the first generation after Earthfall? What spells would have been most useful for those wizards? Heavy combat focused spells for fending off bands of looters. Why not healing? Healing was easily provided by priests without research, and the commonly developed magics would have been those most useful for survival in the destruction and chaos following Earthfall--spells the priests were not so good at providing. The combat-heavy emphasis of arcane spells makes even more sense when viewed through the aftermath of Earthfall.
How many wizards die early through adventuring, banditry, or some other conflict? All it takes is one terrible accident for a spell acquired by original research to be lost into the ashes on the wind once more. What kind of accident? Why it could be:
* wizard dies before an apprentice is trained
* wizard killed by a rival trying to steal a spellbook
* a spellbook stolen or destroyed in an accidental fire
* a spell unable to be comprehended from a stolen spellbookThe spells commonly available are the spells which are easier for wizards, which are not generally available to divine casters, because you don't spend precious resources on spell research for spells the local priest can provide when you're living through the Time of Darkness. As the generations tick by, wizards become accustomed to not knowing cure * wounds, to thinking it's priests' work, so no one researches it because priests handle it, and it simply becomes tradition that wizards do not heal...and tradition is never difficult to overcome.
So yeah, there are plenty of good reasons why wizards might not commonly know cure * wounds in a world after a massive planetary impact and a terrible dark age, but not one of them is "because it's just not possible."
Earthfall would not be a good reason why spells were lost. Earth fall happened in -5293 AR and the current era the rulebooks are based on is 4714 AR. Even after accounting for the dark age after Earthfall, there's still millennia of time for wizards to come up with new spells.
Not to mention, our world doesn't have magical safeguards, an unchanging common language, several species that could reintroduce old concepts. Dwarves survived Earthfall relatively unscathed. Elves ran off to another planet. Gillmen have some knowledge of the old days. Ancient Azlanti artifacts and writings are being discovered all the time and it's far more profitable to sell them or show them off than to hide them. Dragons are ancient and some are good-aligned. I can't imagine that no good members of these species would want less healers in the world.
Rahadoum provides another reason why wizards would want to cast healing spells. There are no divine casters allowed in that country and bards are really not that good at healing. They have an even greater interest in having wizards cast healing spells.
Also I don't think most wizards go out adventuring. They usually stay inside studying and experimenting. Even if most die, all it takes is one successful wizard creating a scroll of heal/CLW/CSW/etc. to keep the legacy of healing alive. Wizards may not have a hive mind of spell knowledge but they do have colleges. Generally wizards love knowledge and would love to spread it and keep it alive after they're gone. If you're more cynical, the first wizard to create a heal scroll would get a mountain of gold especially in Rahadoum.
I also don't see why "Spells of original research require instruction from master to apprentice." Wouldn't it just require one wizard figuring it out and then writing it down. We still have lots of old books. Plato and Socrates were rediscovered after they're work had been destroyed because it was written down somewhere far away from the ignorant men who destroyed them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Earthfall would not be a good reason why spells were lost. Earth fall happened in -5293 AR and the current era the rulebooks are based on is 4714 AR. Even after accounting for the dark age after Earthfall, there's still millennia of time for wizards to come up with new spells.
You're talking about a massive destruction of existing civilization, followed by 1000 years of terrible darkness. The civilization then has to rebuild from that event.
Consider, for a moment, the eruption of Thera. It devastated the Minoan civilization, but only for about 50 years-- but the situation is similar. This is an outlier example, but it helps demonstrate my point. The people on Knossos had flush toilets (or at least one,) in their palace in the 18C BC. We wouldn't develop that technology again until the 1C, when the Romans would have it, but it was lost in the 5C until the 17C, and this time we managed to make it stick.
A really useful technology, isn't it? Making a flush toilet? But this was "discovered" and lost several times over 3500 years. Only after knowledge was easily recorded and transmitted did the invention take hold, because it was possible to spread the information quickly. Before then, transmitting the information was hard, and it could be easily lost.
I also don't see why "Spells of original research require instruction from master to apprentice." Wouldn't it just require one wizard figuring it out and then writing it down.
Magic isn't some broadsheet cranked out for the common man.
Page 218:
Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
and
Page 219, when copying a spell over from another caster's spellbook fails:
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until he gains another rank in Spellcraft.
If a caster dies before he learns and copies it, the process starts over--Someone has to find the spell, decipher, learn/copy, master. If the spellbook is destroyed before that happens, the research is lost. When there is only one copy of the spell out there, or effectively one copy, the chances of it not surviving to transmission increase.
Arcane magic is individual to the caster. They express themselves differently in their spellbooks, and there is a chance the wizard might not understand the annotations in a stolen spellbook. Once it's copied over to their own book, then it's effectively learned. And again-- you're presuming a lot of friendly sharing in there.
Magic is power. The power to charm another person, to be invisible, to throw a fireball. You can be certain those spells became common knowledge written in blood, because if you're the only one with those arts, you've got power, and you're not going to want to share it. You are going to want to hoard it, keep it from potential rivals, make it so you're safe and comfortable, and well-fed in the world. You might even go a step further and seek out rivals to destroy before they learn or discover those more powerful spells.
My point is that magic is elite knowledge. It requires specific skills and education. Original research requires time to decipher and disseminate to a wider audience to ensure it becomes a part of the commonly known, possible repertoire of wizard spells. The game designers determined that cure * wounds hasn't yet seen sufficient exposure to be on that list, but they left the door open with original research and they allowed the GM to be the gatekeeper of that possibility by not pinning down the specifics. This allows arcane healing magics to be a subject of conversation between a player and a GM, as they determine if it's just going to be simple research, a crazy new breakthrough, or not very possible. But the game doesn't forbid it; it requires an investment by the wizard character. Anytime the player character is willing to invest in something, then you've got a better chance to develop an emotional response based on the results of your stories-- to me, that's a win.
-Ben.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
EDIT: severely ninja'd. That's what I get for spending about four hours only half-working on a post (half taking care of a toddler). Heh.
Good Ideas.
Good ideas! Not all of them work, but it's a really skilled breakdown of the reasons that many wouldn't function in Golarion.
Larkos, mind if I respond to your points one at a time?
Not to disagree with them all (in fact, to support some), but rather to gain a more nuanced look at each of them.
:)
Earthfall would not be a good reason why spells were lost. Earth fall happened in -5293 AR and the current era the rulebooks are based on is 4714 AR. Even after accounting for the dark age after Earthfall, there's still millennia of time for wizards to come up with new spells.
Millennia are, in fact, a great reason.
Wizards come up with new spells all the time, but they also lose spells all the time. That was covered.
A quick look at Golarion's history reveals that after the age of darkness, there was the age of anguish, then the age of destiny, then the age of enthronement.
Let's look at these.
Age of Darkness: the major "restart" of Golarion where all light, hope, and information was lost. Dwarves appeared here... but so did the orcs. Orcs had far better vision than the humanoid races, and the dwarves didn't have any sort of real heritage of wizardry, from what I can tell, orcs certainly didn't, and Wayangs are secretive, reclusive little creatures hated as creepy creatures of darkness (which they are). Zon-Kuthon also re-emerged, causing pain and anguish for his own pleasure; he'd be a hindrance to any true benevolent creation by his mere presence, much less by his worshipers'. The elves, on the other hand, left entirely.
Age of Anguish: the sky cleared, bringing light again! ... and started the Age of Anguish, which is pretty much just lots of primitive empires fighting for conquest and domination against each other.
That's -5293 AR to -3470 AR; that's 1,823 years that's covered, and plenty of time to thoroughly lose pretty much everything. Now, that said, deep in Garund, there are a few mages who maintain the tradition of druidic magic (indicating a fundamental difference in the methods of acquiring magic, thus it's pretty clear the intent behind such different lists is that they don't have access to each other's magic).
In any event, if there was any sort of "cleric spells belonging to wizards", I'd suggest it comes from Nantambu... though, as mentioned above, most of their access-to-divine magic comes from specialized training instead of just researching this indicating that there is a clear difference.
Age of Destiny: For about -3470 years, Osiriani arose, Nethys ascended, Nex and Geb (the latter of which wouldn't want cure spells, the former) had a ridiculously long war, Taldor was formed, and the Land of the Linnorm Kings became it's own thing. Oh, and the tarrasque (which cost an entire civilization).
This age brings about several problems to the "it was never developed" theory.
In Osirion, the mages were worshiped as god-kings, so it would make sense for them to have such powers... but they were also mummified, indicating they didn't have access to (or didn't want) the immortality discovery, and, as undead, they would seek to purge or destroy such information after they were interred. Plus, their civilization more or less collapsed later, and is currently run by a priest. Thus, any advancements were likely kept tightly controlled and extinguished later.
Nethys was all about the arcane magic, but we don't have any record of his mortal life, so... that's a wash.
Nex and Geb... well, the former would be a perfect place for development of anti-undead cure spells, the latter would, of course, fight it... but the fact that Nex still stands means they likely wouldn't succeed. That said, Nex doesn't really seem to focus on conjuration... or really anything that could be considered "divine". Mostly they seem to be divination/transmutation specialists (regardless of their class) with a penchant for constructs and crafts. Still, one would expect that Nex would be a place, if there was one, for a mage to have developed (and kept!) the concept of cure spells, after the Magaambyan college.
Taldor certainly qualifies as an ancient empire, but they were trained from an early age - from the beginning, in fact, to worship the gods and rely on them for many things (starting with Aroden himself, and the remaining Azlanti gods). Further, their high specialists are actually usually bards, and they have a high incidence of subtlety, intrigue, and assassination... thus it's highly unsurprising that any few who would bother would easily have been killed off for all sorts of reasons (as addressed above), rather than allowed to pass on or spread their knowledge.
Not to mention, our world doesn't have magical safeguards, an unchanging common language, several species that could reintroduce old concepts. Dwarves survived Earthfall relatively unscathed. Elves ran off to another planet. Gillmen have some knowledge of the old days. Ancient Azlanti artifacts and writings are being discovered all the time and it's far more profitable to sell them or show them off than to hide them. Dragons are ancient and some are good-aligned. I can't imagine that no good members of these species would want less healers in the world.
Magical safeguards: which have failed and been destroyed by more constant war than our world has ever seen.
A common language: which isn't unchanging.
Species that: left or had no continuing tradition before introduced by humanity [dwarves], and, with the length of time before returning, have no real or direct connection to those who had left millennia ago (thus it's like starting over for them, as well) [elves], and are generally reclusive anyway [dwarves and elves and dragons]. Or have been brutally tamed by ancient creatures seeking to repress and control humans [gillmen]. Ancient Azlanti artifacts are not all in good condition (in fact, adventurers find the majority of them... that aren't brutally repressed by a bunch of hyper-zealous elves). Dragons, in fact, don't tend to help humanity out... except for that one weird one on Hermia (people debate whether he's good or not) or that one that started an empire over on the other side of the world (who, as I recall, is not specifically good), and also are sorcerous in their magical prowess, meaning they are less likely to research and more likely to go with whatever is natural to them.
All this leads up to the possibility that... it's very viably possible that none of them have grandfathered in the healing magic that may (or may not, as established above) be available to mages in the first place. There could have been one... but considering how rapidly humankind has made advances within the last decades, it also causes me to question the intense slowness of our previous developments. And yet... that's how it ran.
To that end, I would suggest that, instead of a number of things going wrong in order to prevent curative magic from existing, there are instead a number of things that need to go right. Though, as noted below and above, there are plenty of opportunities for it to go right, from what I can tell, in modern (and ancient) Golarion.
Rahadoum provides another reason why wizards would want to cast healing spells. There are no divine casters allowed in that country and bards are really not that good at healing. They have an even greater interest in having wizards cast healing spells.
Rahadoum is an excellent (modern) point. It's possible that they are simply have trouble coming up with enough skill with magic... but yes, given their high rate of seeking "anything other than arcane", this would be a (new) place that would allow such magic to spread like wildfire.
Also I don't think most wizards go out adventuring. They usually stay inside studying and experimenting. Even if most die, all it takes is one successful wizard creating a scroll of heal/CLW/CSW/etc. to keep the legacy of healing alive. Wizards may not have a hive mind of spell knowledge but they do have colleges. Generally wizards love knowledge and would love to spread it and keep it alive after they're gone. If you're more cynical, the first wizard to create a heal scroll would get a mountain of gold especially in Rahadoum.
The first line is understandable, but... dubious, to some extent. Wizards are always after more information, more lore, more ancient secrets, more wealth, etc... all of which leads to adventuring. Those wizards that do live lives of research and contemplation generally have plenty of things to take up their time. Normal Wizardly things. Rare is the combination of "wizard" with "plenty of time to research spells that don't normally appear on the wizard list and thus aren't normal wizard knowledge". In each of the current countries (except Rahadoum, and there are cases even there), they are just as likely to find some sort of terrible end.
And, I may be misunderstanding you, but wasn't the "one successful wizard" covered under, "he dies"? Or do you mean, "it only takes one that is successful in distributing the research", in which case, I don't think anyone's disagreed - the general thesis is that this is what's happened with those spells that are on the wizard spell-list in a painstaking process over the millennia, but it just hasn't happened that way with cure.
I also don't see why "Spells of original research require instruction from master to apprentice." Wouldn't it just require one wizard figuring it out and then writing it down. We still have lots of old books. Plato and Socrates were rediscovered after they're work had been destroyed because it was written down somewhere far away from the ignorant men who destroyed them.
... yes. But we've also lost lots of things to antiquity... things that we've yet to recover.
Nonetheless, you bring up a large number of great points. Magaambyan College, Nex, and Rahadoum make for compelling cases of, "if it were possible, it's been found."
Though, coupled with the Magaambyan Arcanist, the Pathfinder Savant (along with, as mentioned, the Infernal Healing spell) again indicates that there is no direct spell translation for the cure spells. Why? I dunno.
My presumption is (again to borrow another's analogy) that it's like someone else said: one requires all the skills of science, and the other requires the skill of a surgeon.
The scientist likely knows more about the theory (and fundamental nature of things) than the surgeon does - he can probably tell you how and why the effect works, that it's made of cells which are made of atoms that have <X> properties, and so on -, but the surgeon understands the effects and direct skills he needs to apply better, because, you know, surgeon - he'll be able to explain that if you put <X> substance into <Y> kind of person, it'll heal them in <Z> manner (though he likely understands some of the cellular structure and atomic stuff, too). Two very related, but very different fields.
Also, it seems odd to hold one small line of fluff as the absolute metric of what a class should be able to accomplish. Sure, it could be dissonant, but it doesn't really make all that much sense, when you have a host of examples contrary (or at least explaining) the one line of fluff.
That said, I can understand the desire for a unified set of spell-lists. That can make sense.
I just don't think it'll happen any time soon.
Though, coupled with the Magaambyan Arcanist, the Pathfinder Savant (along with, as mentioned, the Infernal Healing spell) again indicates that there is no direct spell translation for the cure spells. Why? I dunno.
To me, these just say, "Hey, there's an easier way than trying to research every divine spell-- you just have to be willing to become a divine entity's servant!"
Because, let's face it, you can spend hundreds of thousands of gold pieces in research, or, by becoming a cleric of [INSERT GOD HERE], you can gain access to a huge pile of spells. Because it's not the same magic, it takes different skills, and so the character level difference makes sense.
I don't think it's a case of "not possible," but more often a case of "path of least resistance."
-Ben.
I'm actually against unified spell lists. I like diversity of classes. I just agree with the point of there should be an in-universe reason as to why wizards can't cast it. I already gave my answer a while back. TL;DR version you need some access to the divine in order to do it and I think Bards and Witches are close enough.
The point of us losing knowledge to antiquity is not as applicable in Golarion. We don't have magic, they do. My point about surviving races just means there only has to be one person of that surviving race who remembers how to cast heal with arcane power in order to reintroduce it. While copying spells into spellbooks via scrolls isn't perfect, it is fairly reliable. Inscribing scrolls in Pathfinder doesn't even cost XP anymore so there's no reason why an ancient archmage couldn't make a ton of them just in case.
"Magical safeguards: which have failed and been destroyed by more constant war than our world has ever seen." You act like warfare regularly plunders tombs, caves, and ancient wizard towers. Of course there are magical safeguards that still work; it's half of D&D!
"Wizards are always after more information, more lore, more ancient secrets, more wealth, etc... all of which leads to adventuring." this is true and the reason for adventurer wizards but it was my possibly mistaken understanding that most wizards in the setting don't adventure to find new knowledge. Most stay in a college where the seek new information hidden away in dusty old tomes or go to a nobleman's court and get paid while researching and experimenting. Raiding tombs for lost knowledge is rare for any class and that's the point. Adventurers are special.
"Magic isn't some broadsheet cranked out for the common man.
Page 218:
Quote:
Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
and
Page 219, when copying a spell over from another caster's spellbook fails:
Quote:
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until he gains another rank in Spellcraft."
I never said it was for the common man. I'm saying it would be written down for the future generations of wizards. Wizards can study and learn other people's magical writing and copy it into their own spell books. As for the quote from page 219, you're missing the first part: "If the check fails." Copying new spells isn't that difficult. If they fail then they study more until they gain a level and try again. Or another wizard does it. CLW is only a first level spell. There are plenty of wizards who could learn it. A high-level wizard could be assumed to make the check without rolling.
"A really useful technology, isn't it? Making a flush toilet? But this was "discovered" and lost several times over 3500 years. Only after knowledge was easily recorded and transmitted did the invention take hold, because it was possible to spread the information quickly. Before then, transmitting the information was hard, and it could be easily lost."
Transmission and recording of knowledge is much easier in Golarion. Magic can preserve things past the point they would crumble into dust and most spell tomes are ancient anyway. We could only keep knowledge safe after several inventions. We had to create these inventions specifically to overcome the many hazards to the safe storing of information like fire, war, ignorance, etc. Magic offers a solution past that problem making these inventions unnecessary.
"My point is that magic is elite knowledge. It requires specific skills and education. Original research requires time to decipher and disseminate to a wider audience to ensure it becomes a part of the commonly known, possible repertoire of wizard spells. The game designers determined that cure * wounds hasn't yet seen sufficient exposure to be on that list, but they left the door open with original research and they allowed the GM to be the gatekeeper of that possibility by not pinning down the specifics. This allows arcane healing magics to be a subject of conversation between a player and a GM, as they determine if it's just going to be simple research, a crazy new breakthrough, or not very possible. But the game doesn't forbid it; it requires an investment by the wizard character. Anytime the player character is willing to invest in something, then you've got a better chance to develop an emotional response based on the results of your stories-- to me, that's a win."
Many of your point were good but this one invalidates them. If it is theoretically possible then it should have been done before. Healing people instantly and safely is one of the most useful things in the world. There would be too many reasons not to. This gaping plot hole would force me as a GM to stay that healing magic (CLW, CSW, heal, etc.) is just impossible for wizards to cast.
Not to mention, this whole discussion has been about wizards. Magic doesn't require any knowledge for a sorcerer. They share the same spell list so it stands to reason that if non-witch/bard arcane casters could cast heal then it would on the list regardless. The celestial sorcerer can heal sorta and cast normally divine-only spells but that's a special circumvention of the normal rules because they have unique access to the powers of the upper planes. If wizards could cast Heal then it would already be on the list.
P.S. "Larkos, mind if I respond to your points one at a time?
Not to disagree with them all (in fact, to support some), but rather to gain a more nuanced look at each of them.
:)" Thanks for the polite and well-reasoned responses. :)
Transmission and recording of knowledge is much easier in Golarion. Magic can preserve things past the point they would crumble into dust and most spell tomes are ancient anyway. We could only keep knowledge safe after several inventions. We had to create these inventions specifically to overcome the many hazards to the safe storing of information like fire, war, ignorance, etc. Magic offers a solution past that problem making these inventions unnecessary.
What spells are these? They're not on any of the lists...and if they were theoretically possible then they should have been done before. So they must not be possible. ;)
"My point is that magic is elite knowledge. It requires specific skills and education. Original research requires time to decipher and disseminate to a wider audience to ensure it becomes a part of the commonly known, possible repertoire of wizard spells. The game designers determined that cure * wounds hasn't yet seen sufficient exposure to be on that list, but they left the door open with original research and they allowed the GM to be the gatekeeper of that possibility by not pinning down the specifics. This allows arcane healing magics to be a subject of conversation between a player and a GM, as they determine if it's just going to be simple research, a crazy new breakthrough, or not very possible. But the game doesn't forbid it; it requires an investment by the wizard character. Anytime the player character is willing to invest in something, then you've got a better chance to develop an emotional response based on the results of your stories-- to me, that's a win."Many of your point were good but this one invalidates them. If it is theoretically possible then it should have been done before. Healing people instantly and safely is one of the most useful things in the world. There would be too many reasons not to. This gaping plot hole would force me as a GM to stay that healing magic (CLW, CSW, heal, etc.) is just impossible for wizards to cast.
You're skipping over the open door clause I'm noting.
The designers realized that not everyone wants wizards to heal. But it seems they didn't want to exclude the possibility that wizards could heal, so they made the option of wizards healing a GM decision requiring an investment by the wizard character through research. That's not invalidating anything, but establishing that healing magic is a "YMMV" aspect of the game. How is it a "gaping plot hole?" I've already shown how the knowledge could be lost in the wake of disasters, stated how it could be suppressed by more organized religious orders, shown how it can be rediscovered in the game right now without rewriting or counterdicting any of the existing rules...so where's the plot hole? (And I'm not sure "plot hole" is the right term here.)
-Ben.
Transmission and recording of knowledge is much easier in Golarion. Magic can preserve things past the point they would crumble into dust and most spell tomes are ancient anyway. We could only keep knowledge safe after several inventions. We had to create these inventions specifically to overcome the many hazards to the safe storing of information like fire, war, ignorance, etc. Magic offers a solution past that problem making these inventions unnecessary.
What spells are these? They're not on any of the lists...and if they were theoretically possible then they should have been done before. So they must not be possible. ;)
"My point is that magic is elite knowledge. It requires specific skills and education. Original research requires time to decipher and disseminate to a wider audience to ensure it becomes a part of the commonly known, possible repertoire of wizard spells. The game designers determined that cure * wounds hasn't yet seen sufficient exposure to be on that list, but they left the door open with original research and they allowed the GM to be the gatekeeper of that possibility by not pinning down the specifics. This allows arcane healing magics to be a subject of conversation between a player and a GM, as they determine if it's just going to be simple research, a crazy new breakthrough, or not very possible. But the game doesn't forbid it; it requires an investment by the wizard character. Anytime the player character is willing to invest in something, then you've got a better chance to develop an emotional response based on the results of your stories-- to me, that's a win."
You're skipping over the open door clause I'm noting.
The designers realized that not everyone wants wizards to heal. But it seems they didn't want to exclude the possibility that wizards could heal, so they made the option of wizards healing a GM decision requiring an investment by the wizard character through research. That's not invalidating anything, but establishing that healing magic is a "YMMV" aspect of the game. How is it a "gaping plot hole?" I've already shown how the knowledge could be lost in the wake of disasters, stated how it could be suppressed by more organized religious orders, shown how it can be rediscovered in the game right now without rewriting or counterdicting any of the existing rules...so where's the plot hole? (And I'm not sure "plot hole" is the right term here.)
Things like book wards, globes of invulnerability, construct guardians, etc.
The plot hole is that despite plenty of magical protections and the fact that sorcerers are still alive and don't need to rely on knowledge, arcane healing is lost to the ages. If a wizard doesn't want to heal then he can simply not heal. Wizards don't have to cast every spell on their spell list. Not to mention, opposed schools. If they intended healing to be an option then they'd just put it on the spell list. I figured researched spells were about creating unique spells not in the rules. Healing is right there in other spell lists. They could have put it on the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
Things like book wards, globes of invulnerability, construct guardians, etc.
Book Ward lasts days. Globes of Invulnerability last rounds. Construct Guardians don't prevent fires.
The plot hole is that despite plenty of magical protections and the fact that sorcerers are still alive and don't need to rely on knowledge, arcane healing is lost to the ages.
Sorcerers are specifically bloodlines. They strongly imply they must be perpetuated via descendants. Catastrophes and conflicts most definitely impact their transmission-- the same way that languages can die out.
Why is it that you can simultaneously say, "Original research is for creating spells which are not on the wizard lists," and say "oh, you can't research those spells, which are not on the wizard lists, because they're on a different caster's list."
Does this mean a wizard can't research bless weapon? How about wind walk or sound burst? Or commune with birds or feast of ashes? Are just healing spells off the table, or are any spells which are on another class list but not on the wizard list?
My point is that you're selectively excluding an effect from spell research, and you're excluding that effect without any basis in the rules except an unspoken tradition and paradigm and imposing it as if it were a rule. Nowhere in the core book will you find the sentence "wizards cannot cast healing spells." Nowhere in the research rules does it say, "Wizards can't research spells of the healing conjuration subschool," and that's where you'd expect it-- after all, they do say that bards and sorcerers cannot perform spell research. Magical healing is described simply as that-- "magical healing," not "divine healing." Magical research says, quite plainly, that new spell research may create effects "duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
I am reminded of favorite quote, from a book aptly titled Illusions,
Ask for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours.
-Ben.
"Why is it that you can simultaneously say, 'Original research is for creating spells which are not on the wizard lists,' and say 'oh, you can't research those spells, which are not on the wizard lists, because they're on a different caster's list.'"
You're right I could have been clearer. I meant that you can research wholly original spells not on any class' spell list. Like Bugsby's Expressive Digit or Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.
"Book Ward lasts days. Globes of Invulnerability last rounds. Construct Guardians don't prevent fires."
That's why permanency was invented. Globe of Invulnerability isn't on the list but prismatic sphere is. Besides, "The GM may allow other spells to be made permanent." Book ward isn't gonna break the game if that happens and it is a sensible spell to permanize.
You're right I could have been clearer. I meant that you can research wholly original spells not on any class' spell list. Like Bugsby's Expressive Digit or Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.
That's not what the rules say, though-- they state, specifically, that "A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
So basically, you're ignoring the rules just because.
-Ben.
Apparantly what happened on Golarion is that for centuries, maybe millennia wizards have tried and failed to duplicate clerical healing magic. Until one day, Asmodeus, the defining expert on bending rules, either overtly or covertly allowed someone to discover the Infernal Healing spells. Presumably the widespread use of this spell serves his purpose in a way that has yet to be revealed.
Nothing in the rules or the canon states this. You're just fabricating it whole cloth rather than accept what the rules on page 219 state. Go ask James Jacobs in his thread, otherwise, you're speculating.
Why does it have to be some kind of weird, unwritten, undefined restriction, as opposed to the idea that the designers were cognizant that the long-standing paradigm of "D&D" implied that wizards could not heal-- so rather than try to overcome that paradigm, they left the spells split, but created the option for healing to be learned through the spell research rules?
-Ben.
You're right I could have been clearer. I meant that you can research wholly original spells not on any class' spell list. Like Bugsby's Expressive Digit or Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.That's not what the rules say, though-- they state, specifically, that "A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
So basically, you're ignoring the rules just because.
-Ben.
Not just because. I admitted I didn't know the exact rules and could be wrong. And it seems I am. I suppose what I said before would be my houserule. Since healing allowed to be researched, my best answer to why wizards don't have it now is I don't know.
Of course, the fact that he can duplicate some spells doesn't mean he can duplicate any spell.
I always viewed that statement as more of a "You can't find any spellbooks or scrolls of fireball lying around? Then just research it!" type of a thing, when not used for new, original spells.
The rules are usually pretty specific-- they don't say "A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing wizard spell or creating an entirely new one."
They say, "duplicating an existing spell."
So it would be cool, then, if my wizard created Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner? This spell allows the caster to take a live chicken and touch a wounded individual. The target transfers 1d8 points of damage to the chicken; this transforms it into a deliciously cooked dinner and heals the target of 1d8 hp damage. This will work with any small animal, like squirrels, piglets, fish, or other similar creature.
That's not cure light wounds, it is a new spell, but it's effectively CLW, the way infernal healing is.
-Ben.
And you're being deliberately incomplete. There's a whole chapter of guidelines in the Spell Mastery section of Ultimate Magic about handling the GM side of that statement, which by the way, doesn't mean that a Wizard can successfully expect to research any spell he or she wants to have.
Not at all. Starting on page 128 of UM, there's nothing in there about healing and wizards. There's nothing in there about wizard spell versus other caster spell-- and in fact, they urge that "Core is King," and to defer to the examples from the core rules. It certainly does not talk about the skill checks necessary, as discussed on page 219 of the core. Page 129 even says:
Therefore, this chapter is about the game mechanics of a player or GM designing a new spell, not the in-world requirements of a character researching a new spell.
That section is about making new spells which remain of comparable power to other spells of the same level.
-Ben.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
cough cough ... limited wish.... cough cough
that and DnD tradition...... healing is mostly the realm of the gods.....
After checking my 2e and 3.5 DMG to be sure I remembered correctly -- and sure enough, both specifically advise DMs to prevent casters from 'going against type' via spell research -- I decided to ask JJ about PF's omission of the 'going against type' injunction, and the Great Tyranosaur has spoken.
To paraphrase, JJ wouldn't allow wizards to research healing spells in his own campaign, but thinks it'd be cool if other DMs do.
...Just in case anyone here didn't know that DMs are allowed to make judgment calls. ;)
One other substantially power-increasing by-product is that Wizards would suddenly have access to cure * wounds... items. Spell-completion items would no longer be the purview of those that actually have the spells, wizards wouldn't have to sink UMD (a skill tax) into succeeding, and thus would be able to avoid ever having to actually prepare something so plebian as the cure line of spells, while getting an increase in power.
Of course, if you don't use that rule (or don't enforce it very hard), that's a different thing altogether, and it won't affect your game*.
And yes, GMs are always encouraged to make a setting their own.
* I, in fact, do not, so it doesn't affect me.
One other substantially power-increasing by-product is that Wizards would suddenly have access to cure * wounds... items. Spell-completion items would no longer be the purview of those that actually have the spells, wizards wouldn't have to sink UMD (a skill tax) into succeeding, and thus would be able to avoid ever having to actually prepare something so plebian as the cure line of spells, while getting an increase in power.
Of course, if you don't use that rule (or don't enforce it very hard), that's a different thing altogether, and it won't affect your game*.
And yes, GMs are always encouraged to make a setting their own.
* I, in fact, do not, so it doesn't affect me.
Is that really an issue though?
The wands don't use a charge if you fail your UMD... so its not like ONLY the ones with it on thier spell list are the ones using the wand anyway... In our group the Rogue has the wand, and unless someone is bleeding out to death, she can keep rolling until she gets that number.
Having another character able to use the wand without wasting 20 minutes of game time REALLY doesn't bother me.
A natural 1 is always a fail when using UMD unlike with other skills.
Nope. "If you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours." Nothing about auto-fail on a 1.
I think it bugged the heck out of one of my GMs when my bard ended up being the party's primary healer. Our cleric was an in-your-face melee type. UMD is nice. His only problem was scrolls. I think by the time campaign ended, he had a 50/50 chance of getting a scroll of resurrection to work.
Magic should be such a vast, overwhelming subject that it's almost impossible for anyone to be an expert on any aspect of it. Consider the field of engineering. Engineering is such a broad subject that you'll never find an expert in all forms of engineering.
Magic should be such a vast, overwhelming subject that it's almost impossible for anyone to be an expert on any aspect of it. Consider the field of engineering. Engineering is such a broad subject that you'll never find an expert in all forms of engineering.
As an engineering student, I know this all too well!
However, there's no field of engineering that I couldn't learn if I chose to. There's no requirement to be religious to learn chemical engineering, or to be a musician to learn mechanical engineering, or whatever. All it takes is time and effort.
So your metaphor only emphasizes that there's no good reason for the wizard healing restriction.
I'd be open to a magic subschool specialism that added all the cure spells to the wizard list, in the same way that a domain allows a cleric to learn Fireball.
Magic should be such a vast, overwhelming subject that it's almost impossible for anyone to be an expert on any aspect of it. Consider the field of engineering. Engineering is such a broad subject that you'll never find an expert in all forms of engineering.
I always liked the way that was represented with the specialist archtypes. You're really good at some stuff... but not so great at others.
Also... I loved that Pathfinder is 'not great at others'... as opposed to 2E's 'Can't DO others.'
I didn't read all the posts, if this came up ignore it.
Wizards who care about healing are able to do it right now, even without using evil asmodean magic: Those guys are called life necromancers and nearly every spell they cast can heal the target if they so wish.
And orc/half-orc wizards can learn fire god's blessing to heal themselves while blasting enemies with magic fire.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Magic should be such a vast, overwhelming subject that it's almost impossible for anyone to be an expert on any aspect of it. Consider the field of engineering. Engineering is such a broad subject that you'll never find an expert in all forms of engineering.I always liked the way that was represented with the specialist archtypes. You're really good at some stuff... but not so great at others.
Also... I loved that Pathfinder is 'not great at others'... as opposed to 2E's 'Can't DO others.'
I think it was a mistake for PF to relax the rules on prohibited schools. Wizards did not need a single buff coming out of 3.5.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be open to a magic subschool specialism that added all the cure spells to the wizard list, in the same way that a domain allows a cleric to learn Fireball.
Super Genius Games (or Rogue Genius Games now?) has a class called the Mosaic Mage that does color-based casting, and the Red Mosaic Mage can access healing and evocation spells (and a few others). It's probably one of my favorite 3pp classes and I'll often replace the standard Wizard and Sorcerer classes with it in my campaigns.