Ok, I'm not sure if this should be here or in the 'compatible products' section since I'm asking for advice on a PC for a non-Paizo setting. Feel free to move if desired.
Our GM is talking about running a short campaign arc in the Raveloft setting. I don't know much about the setting rules, but I know a lot of people that love the setting. My one experience a few years ago was not too good. But I believe that was mostly the PC I had at the time.
My detections and divinations never seemed to work right.
Summoned creatures and my familiar were warped and ended up attacking the party.
Etc...
So I made a character not knowing the rules were different and made a bunch of poor options. The GM doesn’t want to just hand us the book because that would give away a lot of information that we need to find out during play.
On the one hand, I completely understand and agree with that. On the other hand, the rest of the group has read a bunch of Ravenloft books and/or played in the Ravenloft settings in prior games. I was constantly hearing, “Oh… You didn’t know that? Yeah, no, everyone knows summoning is dangerous in Ravenloft.” They aren’t trying to screw me up, they are just forgetting what ‘everyone already knows because of their prior games/reading.
I don’t want to make another useless (or even worse dangerous to allies) PC. Therefore, what I’m looking for, is things that I should avoid or at least be careful about in a Raveloft PC. Any help is appreciated.
Man,
I used to be a big Ravenloft aficionado.. and now I can't remember much of it at all.
Divine magic is hinky.. I believe.. so watch out for that.
The big thing I remember is this: evil begets evil. If you do bad things in Ravenloft it starts to affect your character both physically and mentally. It is also a slippery slope: the more you do, the more you get.
Part of the changes are beneficial in an attempt to lure you to do more but it is a downward spiral.
But what is most important about this system is that it can be very subjective. There are checks involved to see if your actions have these kinds of consequences but there is some DM fiat involved as well.
So, I guess what I am saying there is, make sure you and your DM are on the same page when it comes to what counts as evil and what not.
My understanding is that Ravenloft is supposed to be about heroes facing off against not overwhelming evil but.. oppressive evil. It is everywhere and fighting it is a slow, hard process where even victories leave scars. It is supposed to be gothic and gloomy.. like candles lighting the void.. that kind of thing.
Well, at least I think so. But yeah.. pretty sure divine magic has actual, quantifiable changes to it.
I just remembered the other huge problem I had. Horror checks and low will save bonus.
Seemed like every other encounter was so horrifyingly disgusting that we had to pass a horror check (will save) or we would thereafter be afraid of that thing or sometimes we would start to go slowly insane. Something like that anyway.
I didn't really get it. I was always thinking "We're 7th level characters. We've seen an awful lot of pretty awful stuff. What is so scary about this particular zombie (as opposed the other 100 we've fought) that we are now terrified of zombies and can't fight them effectively?" I will definitely have to make sure my will save bonus is stellar.
My detections and divinations never seemed to work right.
Divinations do work, but they have a high chance of trying to trick the caster, the powers of ravenloft want mortals to handle their own destiny.
Spells like augury is a no-no, and your GM should have warned you about your choice, its common knowledge between spellcasters of what work and what doesnt (example: they all know that they cant detect if someone is evil or good).Summoned creatures and my familiar were warped and ended up attacking the party.
Summon spells dont work that way, instead of summoning creatures from other planes, you summon them from the area or domain around you.
So your character KNOWS that he cant use summon monster III to summon a celestial dog or infernal python, but he knows that he can summon a crocodile from the nearby swamp. This is common knowledge for native spellcasters, but outsiders will have to learn by trial and error.And no, summoned creatures dont automatically attack the caster, they will return to their place normally.
On the other hand, conjuration spells that bind an extraplanar to do services for you work in a way that will result in the creature being trapped in ravenloft, thus you break your end of the contract ("the creature returns home"), but it is actually sent to another domain within ravenloft and will seek revenge once it realizes that it cant return to their home plane.
Familiars are naturally evil, but they will never cause harm to their master, they will just twist your orders to cause minor evil acts.
Avoid:
Necromancers
Evil Clerics
Paladins, unless your group is really good and can handle dreadlords 5 CR higher, because after lv5 they will start hunting you once in a while.
If you can handle that, then a paladin is the best class to have in your group, everything the class has is a bastion against the evils of ravenloft.
I didn't really get it. I was always thinking "We're 7th level characters. We've seen an awful lot of pretty awful stuff. What is so scary about this particular zombie (as opposed the other 100 we've fought) that we are now terrified of zombies and can't fight them effectively?" I will definitely have to make sure my will save bonus is stellar.
Its not like call of cthulhu, you only make those checks in the first few times you see that particularly scary monster. After the first you start recieving a bonus of +2 per check (if i recall correctly), and eventually you become immune. Unless the monster has a dread/fear aura.
Shadowkras is absolutely correct.
key things that are different when summoning is when you are dealing with elementals. There is no elemental plane of fire, air, water, or earth. Instead you summon elementals from the plane of blood, pyre, tomb, and mist. Each of these are evil summons that are neutral evil. On a side note, summon undead spells are phenomonally powerful in ravenloft.
Now, the challenging part comes from other things. Augury and various other things you never want to cast because it doesn't go to your gods, it goes to the Dark God of Ravenloft.
An Important facet of Ravenloft:
"When a cleric or paladin enters Ravenloft from another world, she immediately feels a hollowness slip into her heart, a void that the strength and compassion of her deity once filled. Although clerics and paladins continue to receive the blessings of their divine patrons, they no longer feel their gods at their side. This absence often causes clerics and paladins new to the Land of Mists to suffer crises of faith or pass through periods of deep depression."
There god still grants spells, but doesn't answer to any prayers, and the like such as Miracle, Divination spells and planar ally spells specifically. Any effect that causes a deity to do some form of intervention so to speak.
This makes alot of roleplay options. In ravenloft, if you cast Augury, you could get intercepted by the powers of Ravenloft, and they could give you automatic False information, instead of true information to send you down the path of evil. Originally, it will be honest and true to make you build trust. That is what ravenloft represents, and at a critical moment it will do the coup de grace. Ravenloft, cares about only one thing, itself. Itself represents the epitome of gothic horror, and part of that is irony.
Ravenloft is not intended to be the same as other campaigns. Success is measured by survival and avoidance of corruption moreso than victory and gaining treasure. Failure of PC actions should not be met with disappointment from the player, but from horror and fear by the character. You're not intended to be conquering heroes, and if you go into Ravenloft expecting to conquer, that's a flaw that the land itself can exploit.
That's not to say you shouldn't try to build an appropriate PC, but realize that for the story, your DM is going to take advantage of whatever you do to make it turn out badly, if he can. That's part of the horror.
Hmm... Sounds like the GM back then had a bunch of house rules that everyone knew about even though they weren't written down.
Hopefully this GM doesn't do that.
Ok, I almost always have a spell caster. But it sounds like I need to be careful if it is a divine caster.
No spells that rely on communication with an outsider or deity.
No summon or gate type spells or familiar (probably shouldn't risk summoner).
No paladin (do you think an inquisitor would have the same problems?)
I've never run a necromancer anyway.
Maybe I should just avoid a caster altogether and play a monk or something. That would be a stretch opportunity for me.
Ok, I almost always have a spell caster. But it sounds like I need to be careful if it is a divine caster.
No spells that rely on communication with an outsider or deity.
No summon or gate type spells or familiar (probably shouldn't risk summoner).
No paladin (do you think an inquisitor would have the same problems?)
I've never run a necromancer anyway.
Paladins aren't necessarily a no-no in Ravenloft; however, just know that if you do have a paladin they basic walk around Ravenloft with a huge arrow pointing from the sky that says "OMG I'm super goody, goody come corrupt my soul." lol
I see the inquisitor being the same as cleric for how Ravenloft deals with the divine character. I think an inquisitor would actually be a perfect character for Ravenloft. The monster lore bonus would be immensely helpful... plus... It's an inquisitor in Ravenloft. All you need if a wide-brim hat and a repeating crossbow... Van Helsing?
perfect character for Ravenloft.
I would say that all APG classes fit pretty well in ravenloft.
There are witches everywhere, alchemists, cavaliers, inquisitors.Summoner is the only class i would be careful when playing to not stretch too much and be easily corrupted. The creature itself would probably be a manifestation of the dark powers.
No paladin (do you think an inquisitor would have the same problems?)
Let me clarify, the paladin's aura of good allows a domain's dreadlord to automatically know if a paladin entered his domain doing a check to percieve him, and the paladin's level makes this check easier.
I forgot the actual rule in the book, but im using a simple check with no modifier of DC 25 - paladin level, so after lv5 a paladin has a 1/20 to be detected automatically.
Now that i think about it, a paladin in 3.x was the only class with an aura of good, but now in pathfinder clerics also have the same aura.
This is what the book had to say about paladin characters by the way:
Remember, Ravenloft hates you just as much as you hate Ravenloft!
So you play a Ravenloft native character? The DM then should give you some info on how things work...
You have to either do outsider characterss (and even then I would find it a bit unfair not to mention a few pitfalls) or provide the players at least a player's guide to Ravenloft. Jester's 4e Players Guide to Ravenloft might work regardless of the ruleset you use, or this awesome and gorgeous PF Player's Guide also by Jester (Note that it does contain house rules though, which might not apply with your DM).
My Ravenloft advice: Embrace the gothic, but also the D&D in it. Don't expect to be a shiny hero, chewing gum and maybe kicking ass. Do your investigation homework before getting in too thick. Get invested in the backstory and world. Make a PC with a few flaws and do not over specialize. Learn to know it and love it.
It's Gothic Adventure! Go out there and stake some vampires, fall in love, and have some fun!
@shadowkras: it's darklord not dread lord and strictly speaking it is not player knowledge.
BTW there are two more Pathfinder conversions of note: Mistfinder and RL3E author Ryan Naylor's conversion on the FoS forums. The latter is more detailed and adresses almost all PF classes and how they work in Ravenloft.
No one is gimped by RL per se, except to a degree of course evil PCs and PCs doing evil stuff. So tread lightly and try to be at least somehwat civilized and good.
Hmm... Sounds like the GM back then had a bunch of house rules that everyone knew about even though they weren't written down.
Hopefully this GM doesn't do that.
Ok, I almost always have a spell caster. But it sounds like I need to be careful if it is a divine caster.
No spells that rely on communication with an outsider or deity.
No summon or gate type spells or familiar (probably shouldn't risk summoner).
No paladin (do you think an inquisitor would have the same problems?)
I've never run a necromancer anyway.Maybe I should just avoid a caster altogether and play a monk or something. That would be a stretch opportunity for me.
It can be great fun to play a paladin or a spellcaster (divine and arcane magic both get altered slightly in RL) and both should be valid choices. Though if your DM is a d*ck or if you play like one it will be bad.
The big changes in magic are: the whole world is slightly suffused by evil though the world is not evil per se, evil magic is enhanced, casting evil magic carries a risk of corrupting you (as do evil deeds), divination is slightly impaired, esp concerning detection of evil, summoning is altered but should still work largely, calling outsiders is very dangerous and will probably beackfire in the end, transportation magic is altered (you can't leave Ravenloft, and sometimes leaving or entering certain lands won't work) so don't go for scry and fry.
In ravenloft, if you cast Augury, you could get intercepted by the powers of Ravenloft, and they could give you automatic False information, instead of true information to send you down the path of evil. Originally, it will be honest and true to make you build trust. That is what ravenloft represents, and at a critical moment it will do the coup de grace. Ravenloft, cares about only one thing, itself. Itself represents the epitome of gothic horror, and part of that is irony.
I disagree with this, but a lot of GMs probably understand Ravenloft this way. IMHO Ravenloft doesn't fool you into evil it test you and then maybe it tempts you.
An augury spell will not give automatic false information and the Dark Powers will not intervene personally to make you fail/fall. But otoh divination is not the quick way to understand, you can't go around casting detect evil and killing anyone that lights up. That's to (ch)easy and there are probably no easy answers in Ravenloft. Everything is a dark grey. Ravenloft makes you work to push back the forces of darkness a little, it gives you gray areas, makes monsters monstrous and BBEG human again and gives both backstories that matter.
Both contain some spoilers if your DM wants to keep you in the dark about some of the rules/tropes of the setting.
I will let him know there are a couple of Ravenloft to PF conversions, but I won't read them unless he gives us leave to do so.
Guess I might not have been clear. The GM with whom I had the not so great Ravenloft experience several years ago is not the same GM I have now.
So since it seems like maybe many of my problems were houserules or misunderstandings, I won't assume this GM will do the same things. I think I will still be a bit careful on the character creation though.
Thanks guys. Once I give some more thought into what I want to run, I will be back asking for help on a specific build design.
I've never run a DPR build. I had a sorcerer that was pulled in from somewhere else.
He had summon monster spell. When I summoned animals they didn't do what I wanted because I couldn't talk to them. When I summoned elementals they usually attacked the party. My familiar became some twisted monstrosity that kept trying to hurt the others in the party if I didn't control him with a diplomacy check.
Detect evil, magic, and poison (I think that was the third) did not usually give any useful information because everything would detect as evil, magic, and/or poisonous.
Seemed like almost everything was resistant to every energy type that I had a blast spell to use with. Many things were not affected by my illusions.
Had an average will save. Several times a game session I was making a horror check and would fail about 1 in 3. So every game session I went a little more crazy or would have another creature that I was too afraid of to effectively combat.
I was not only contributing almost nothing, I was sometimes making the situation worse when I tried to use a summoning spell or if I lost control of my familiar.
It was not a huge amount of fun. I just want to avoid feeling that useless to the party again.
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I love Ravenloft. It's actually my favorite world to campaign in. But there are a number of things to keep in mind.
First, Ravenloft is about the choices we make. Whether or not we receive an extra bonus for doing this or that, it matters far more what you choose to do. Do you stay? Do you run? Do you fight? Do you parley? All this matters far more than whether you actually succeed.
Second, evil can only be detected through its actions. Do NOT think that you can cast a spell and know what's going on. If your strategy involves detect evil or know alignment, you will fail. Since our choices matter the most, we see our alignments through our actions.
Third, the Dark Powers don't turn people into monsters, they portray people as the monsters they already are. Corollary: Being evil and committing evil acts will be rewarded and punished (but ultimately more punished than rewarded).
Fourth, rely on yourself, never on outside help. You are alone in your battle. Do not expect your god, your familiar, or your summonings to come to your aid.
Divine magic should be fine. But here's a list of things to avoid:
- Alignment-based magic and alignment detectors. They just don't work. At best, not at all, at worst, not as advertised.
- Summonings, planar travel, long-range teleportation. Conjuration in general will give you problems.
- Necromancy. Just... no.
Transmutation, Illusion, Enchantment, Evocation, and Abjuration should work as advertised, mostly, but be aware that there are beings and forces that can trump anything you might try. Anything. Do not assume that having the tool will make you successful unless you have proof that the tool works.
