Legendary Negotiation DC

[HumbleGamer]

Hey,

I am considering taking the legendary negotiation feat by lvl 15

Quote:

Actions: 3

Description: You can negotiate incredibly quickly in adverse situations.

Effect: You attempt to Make an Impression and then Request your opponent cease their current activity and engage in negotiations. You take a –5 penalty to your Diplomacy check. The GM sets the DC of the Request based on the circumstances—it’s generally at least a very hard DC of the creature’s level. Some creatures might simply refuse, and even those who agree to parley might ultimately find your arguments lacking and return to violence.

Now, a random character who wants to rely on diplomacy ( so, not necessarily a charisma spellcaster with 20 charisma by lvl 15, or meant to get the charisma apex item by lvl 17 ) is probably going to get 18 charisma by lvl 15, resulting in:

Quote:

1) Skill: 15 ( level ) + 8 ( legendary proficiency ) + 2 ( item bonus ) +4 ( charisma ) = +29 bonus on your diplomacy roll

2) you also get a -5 penalty on your diplomacy check

3) In addition, the DC is "at least" a very high DC for that level ( so, from +5 DC, which is very hard, to +10 DC, which would be Incredibly hard )

4) Finally, there's no guarantee that the feat is going to work on a success or even a critical success

Now, the DC would then be ( depends the encounter level ):

Quote:

-1 > 32 ( DCs by Level ) + 5 ( representing the -5 penalty on the character's diplomacy check ) + 5/10 ( very difficult and incredibly hard difficulty respectively ) = 42/47

+0 > 34 ( DCs by Level ) + ( representing the -5 penalty on the character's diplomacy check ) + 5/10 ( very difficult and incredibly hard difficulty respectively ) = 44/49

+1 > 35 ( DCs by Level ) + ( representing the -5 penalty on the character's diplomacy check ) + 5/10 ( very difficult and incredibly hard difficulty respectively ) = 45/50

+2 > 36 ( DCs by Level ) + ( representing the -5 penalty on the character's diplomacy check ) + 5/10 ( very difficult and incredibly hard difficulty respectively ) = 46/51

+3 > 38 ( DCs by Level ) + ( representing the -5 penalty on the character's diplomacy check ) + 5/10 ( very difficult and incredibly hard difficulty respectively ) = 48/53

+4 > 39 ( DCs by Level ) + ( representing the -5 penalty on the character's diplomacy check ) + 5/10 ( very difficult and incredibly hard difficulty respectively ) = 49/54

So, for example, even assuming an incredibly hard difficulty against creatures of the same level of the character, the odds would be 1 in 20 ( with no guarantee, and the character expending all their 3 actions for the turn ).

But the same could be said with a very hard difficulty ( +5 ) on a +3 encounter ( resulting in 2 chances of success out of 20.

I'd probably hit legendary regardless this feat because of social interaction skills and bon mot, but I can't help but think that the feat is somehow a scam ( assuming a failure, the fight would still continue, and the character would lose their turn, like it was stunned 3 ).

Any consideration/suggestion you'd like to share?

ps: I am well aware that there are several possibilities to "enhance" my diplomacy skills during a combat ( status bonus from heroism, for example, or circumstance bonus like aid from an ally or even a familiar with the ambassador ability, or even glad hand + a specific skill, like devil's advocate, to properly deal with specific creature, regional access permitting ), as well as the fact it could interfere with the adventure ( that's why it would be up to the DM to allow it or not ), but it seems quite hard to make a good use of that feat ( mas pointed out before, on a tight situation, my main concern would be the extremely high chance of leaving my party without a character for one round ).

[shroudb]

I dont think it's intended to use the feat to end boss encounters to begin with, that would be kinda pointless.

So the best uses would be against mooks, which could add up to be a moderate or even above encounter, even if their individual level is not up to yours.

So, looking it from the perspective of -2 and -1 enemies, it's not that bad. Assuming you have reasonable circumstances and things to say (so -5 penalty) it's like 40%-45% to bypass such enemies in a single round's actions.

[HumbleGamer]

Against low level creatures, I think it would be them the ones that would suggest a truce ( the party might willingfully deliver non lethal blows when the enemies are low health, to incapacitate rather than kill them). The odds are good, but I don't see a good reason to do so against creeps.

I can't think of a good scenario requiring the party to use it on extremely low level enemies, while it's instead more likely to happen a situation near to TPK, requiring the party to flee or come up with some other strategy ( the intent is not to stop a fight, but to buy time or allow the heroes to trade something for their lives).

Apart from that, wasting a lvl 15 feat in order to avoid fights where you can literally stomp your enemies seems kinda unnecessary, though I understand it may fit the character or speed up things, though it might never be required.

[gesalt]

Considering you're using a skill with a double penalty, you probably shouldn't use it at all without Heroism and somebody Aiding you for the +2 status and +4 circumstance bonus to bring you up to +35 which is enough to get you 65/35. Not the worst odds for a potentially fight ending ability though it does eat your whole turn.

If your gm ever applies the incredibly hard DC though you ditch it immediately like the trap it is.

[Claxon]

To be honest, I've always assumed this to be more a narrative ability than a combat related one.

Like, "hey, that contingent of guards is headed our way with an intent to capture us" and you can step and say "instead of killing them all, I think I can talk our way out of this in about 6 seconds". They're not a serious threat to you, but for narrative reasons you don't want to slaughter them. And you can do it quickly.

[breithauptclan]

shroudb wrote:

I dont think it's intended to use the feat to end boss encounters to begin with, that would be kinda pointless.

Agreed.

See: Scare to Death.

[HumbleGamer]

Actually, scare to death is pretty performant even if you don't get to kill the target.

Legendary negotiation lacks different outcomes, and those existing are up to the DM.

[Captain Morgan]

The benefits of the ability also aren't strictly limited to "winning" the fight. Having a group of enemies willing to talk to you could reveal intelligence, be bribed into lying to cover for you, or even convinced to work for you instead of the BBEG. The feat's big problem is less the odds of success and more that how and when it works is so open ended.

[Claxon]

Captain Morgan wrote:

The benefits of the ability also aren't strictly limited to "winning" the fight. Having a group of enemies willing to talk to you could reveal intelligence, be bribed into lying to cover for you, or even convinced to work for you instead of the BBEG. The feat's big problem is less the odds of success and more that how and when it works is so open ended.

Yep, at any time a GM can say "No, these guys really aren't interested in what you have to say, not even for 6 seconds".

As a player, you have no control of that and don't have much room to argue for it either.

As a GM, I'm definitely not going to let you talk your way out of most battles. Most "seriously evil" enemies are not going to be swayed by whatever you have to say as they're fanatically committed to the cause. The "enemies" it will work on a ones that aren't immediately outwardly hostile, so it's more like it can help you to prevent things from escalating to combat. Like maybe you're infiltrating a thieves guild and they might normally kill you if you're inside their lair, but they're not specifically about murder and destruction. But your such a smooth talker that you convince them you're here to make a deal with their leader.

[Captain Morgan]

I wish adventures were written with skill feats in mind. It would be nice if we saw encounters mention things like "these enemies will be open to Legendary Negotiation" or "Group Impression lowers the DC of this check by X." At least to a few times to inspire players on working then into the game.

[Claxon]

Captain Morgan wrote:

I wish adventures were written with skill feats in mind. It would be nice if we saw encounters mention things like "these enemies will be open to Legendary Negotiation" or "Group Impression lowers the DC of this check by X." At least to a few times to inspire players on working then into the game.

That would be lovely. Actually having written options explore what happens besides combat.

:'(

[Captain Morgan]

Claxon wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

I wish adventures were written with skill feats in mind. It would be nice if we saw encounters mention things like "these enemies will be open to Legendary Negotiation" or "Group Impression lowers the DC of this check by X." At least to a few times to inspire players on working then into the game.

That would be lovely. Actually having written options explore what happens besides combat.

:'(

APs do that a fair amount. Lots of encounters have non-combat outcomes outlined, or even just conversations before fights. But I've never seen one specify how skill feats interact with it. The closest I've seen is wild empathy in a few places.

[HumbleGamer]

Captain Morgan wrote:

I wish adventures were written with skill feats in mind. It would be nice if we saw encounters mention things like "these enemies will be open to Legendary Negotiation" or "Group Impression lowers the DC of this check by X." At least to a few times to inspire players on working then into the game.

That would be pretty good!