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It honestly bugs me that Sneak Attack is supposed to represent the rogue hitting a vital spot in just the right way, and yet there's no bonus to hit on an attack that's built completely about pinpoint accuracy. What if rogues added their Sneak Attack dice to their attack rolls as well as their damage rolls? With good rolls, a properly set-up rogue would be able to hit AC's even the fighter couldn't, but she'd need more effort and more support to pull it off. Feels right, right?
I also think the rogue should just be able to sneak attack under more circumstances. Whenever I build or play a rogue, I'm always looking for ways to set up Sneak Attack and figuring out all sorts of methods that feel like they ought to work, but don't.
-Rogues should get SA dice on AoO's.
-Rogues should get SA dice on entangled enemies.
-Rogues should get SA dice on enemies they're grappling (assuming they control the grapple).
-Rogues should get SA dice on any attack modified by True Strike, and possibly other effects that grant insight bonuses to attack rolls.
Any of these would make a solid rogue talent, if changing the base rules of Sneak Attack leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth.
I am coming around to using canny defense (but weapons are allowed in the off hand), vicious opportunist optional rule, and having rogue sneak attack ignore an amount of DR equal to the rogues level, as my go to.
I am coming around to using canny defense (but weapons are allowed in the off hand), vicious opportunist optional rule, and having rogue sneak attack ignore an amount of DR equal to the rogues level, as my go to.
I think that will make rogue's sneak attack works better on things with DR, like barbarian. Doesn't boost them much. If we make rogue able to stealth without being detected by magic, allow them to disable plus steal magical items without the caster noticing. That alone would not only make rogue powerful as they will be the only class that can take out wizards and sorcerers at ease. But to bring fighter up to a respectable level as fighters are highly reliable fighting against rogue as long as we don't boost rogue's attack bonus.
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-Fool the Senses: At 7th level, a Rogue cannot be detected by a creature’s -Fool the Senses: At 7th level, a Rogue cannot be detected by a creature’s tremorsense, blindsense, or blindsight when using the Stealth skill. (taken from my link in previous post but I forgot to mention it). With this a Rogue can actually sneak into a dragon's lair and steal from them while they are sleeping. Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
If it were worded so that a Rogue could attempt to use Stealth vs tremorsense, blindsense, or blindsight (opponent rolling Perception as normal), that would get my vote.
I'm wary of having level 7 Rogues auto-steal from CR20+ Great Wyrms, with an auto-trump ability.
Having it auto-trump these abilities is as bad for balance as having these abilities auto-trump normal Stealth attempts, IMO. Just in the opposite direction.
I agree with Snorter.
Yes, auto steal would be great. Wizard can not cast spells, sorcerer will lose his bracers of armor. Nice. =)
Suggestion for Rogue Talents:
Fluff for all Talents:
Rogues hone their awareness to almost supernatural levels. Knowing where they are in the dark can be the difference between life and death. Something as subtle as a tiny change in the ambient temperature or pressure can alert a master to the presence of an enemy.
Low Light Vision (Ex):
Prerequisites: None.
The Rogue can see twice as far in low light, if she did not already as a racial trait.
Darkvision (Ex):
Prerequisites: Low Light Vision Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue Gains Darkvision 60ft.
Blindsense (Ex):
Prerequisites: Darkvision Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue gains Blindsense 40ft.
Blindsight (Ex):
Prerequisites: Blindsense Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue gains Blindsight to 40ft.
*Edit* Reviewing this post, a four-feat chain to gain blindsight is not a "Shameless Boost"(tm). Two feats for 40ft Blindsense and Blindsight might well be enough, with minor contextual caveats (must have seen the area in dim light, only has awareness of creatures within 20ft, etc). I have absolutely no idea how a rogue is meant to function without *at least* darkvision.
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-Fool the Senses: At 7th level, a Rogue cannot be detected by a creature’s -Fool the Senses: At 7th level, a Rogue cannot be detected by a creature’s tremorsense, blindsense, or blindsight when using the Stealth skill. (taken from my link in previous post but I forgot to mention it). With this a Rogue can actually sneak into a dragon's lair and steal from them while they are sleeping. Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?If it were worded so that a Rogue could attempt to use Stealth vs tremorsense, blindsense, or blindsight (opponent rolling Perception as normal), that would get my vote.
I'm wary of having level 7 Rogues auto-steal from CR20+ Great Wyrms, with an auto-trump ability.
Having it auto-trump these abilities is as bad for balance as having these abilities auto-trump normal Stealth attempts, IMO. Just in the opposite direction.
Well you hit the rule as it was intended right on the nose. Now I can go back and change that.
I was mainly going for a gradual progression based on prior abilities. However, Blindsense and Blindsight are probably not dependent on Low-Light Vision and Darkvision, as they're based likely on different sense organs, kyrt-ryder. Having options for both longer range Darkvision and short range Blindsight/Blindsense offers a spectrum of options, however.
Having short range Blindsense and Blindsight as separate and requirement-free does make a good degree of sense. From an IRL perspective, if you use a particular nondominant sense a lot you gain a huge amount of feedback. Sense, touch, smell, whatever. I'm not going to go into details, it's gross, just trust me.
Personally I think 40ft blindsight is a bit too much... 10ft is more than enough, even someone with the Swordmaster's blindfold only get as much range as their weapon's reach. You can't have a talent that powerful when the rogue didn't even do much to earn it like fighters. 40ft blindsense is not short, even with the heritage of dragon, dragon disciple only get 60ft at most. 30ft blindsense should be enough. But that's just what I think.
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How about a chain of rogue talents that let you upgrade your sneak attack dice from d6's to d8's to d10's? And maybe even d12's?
Is there any circumstance under which it would make sense for a rogue to add his sneak attack dice to things besides damage rolls? Skill checks, perhaps? Saving throws?
Right now, the biggest selling point of sneak attacks isn't its effectiveness, it's the adrenaline of rolling a fistful of dice. Why not take that and run with it?
I am coming around to using canny defense (but weapons are allowed in the off hand), vicious opportunist optional rule, and having rogue sneak attack ignore an amount of DR equal to the rogues level, as my go to.I think that will make rogue's sneak attack works better on things with DR, like barbarian. Doesn't boost them much. If we make rogue able to stealth without being detected by magic, allow them to disable plus steal magical items without the caster noticing. That alone would not only make rogue powerful as they will be the only class that can take out wizards and sorcerers at ease. But to bring fighter up to a respectable level as fighters are highly reliable fighting against rogue as long as we don't boost rogue's attack bonus.
add a plus to hit equal to the number of sneak attack dice the rogue has. What this accomplishes all together,
1.Canny defense ups rogue survivability in a thematic way.2.vicious opportunist greatly ups the number of situations sneak attack can be used.
3.Bypassing DR serves 2 useful functions, one it makes sneak attack stay reliable at later levels against creatures with decent dr(like dragons), and two it makes the rogue talents that require dealing damage with sneak attacks more reliable.
4.the bonus to hit also helps maintain their primary combat ability at later levels.
I do think that many rogue talents could be overhauled and make use of a rogues int modifier, such as slippery mind adding the rogues int modifier to will saves. I would also like to see the stealth system itself adjusted, rather than make only rogues good at it.
I've gone with something simpler and, to be honest, I'd like to get your opinions on it since I'm fairly new to the game.
The only thing I've changed is that for the purposes of Sneak Attack, a rogue is considered to be flanking her target regardless of her position long as there is at least one other ally in melee combat with her target.
I'd like your opinions on whether that sounds too powerful or perhaps not powerful enough.
Is there a reason for its loss of effectiveness after level 5? Maybe there's something else I can add/change to compensate.
Would adding full BAB help or is that still too small of an impact to matter?
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Suggestion for Rogue Talents:
Fluff for all Talents:
Rogues hone their awareness to almost supernatural levels. Knowing where they are in the dark can be the difference between life and death. Something as subtle as a tiny change in the ambient temperature or pressure can alert a master to the presence of an enemy.Low Light Vision (Ex):
Prerequisites: None.
The Rogue can see twice as far in low light, if she did not already as a racial trait.Darkvision (Ex):
Prerequisites: Low Light Vision Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue Gains Darkvision 60ft.Blindsense (Ex):
Prerequisites: Darkvision Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue gains Blindsense 40ft.Blindsight (Ex):
Prerequisites: Blindsense Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue gains Blindsight to 40ft.*Edit* Reviewing this post, a four-feat chain to gain blindsight is not a "Shameless Boost"(tm). Two feats for 40ft Blindsense and Blindsight might well be enough, with minor contextual caveats (must have seen the area in dim light, only has awareness of creatures within 20ft, etc). I have absolutely no idea how a rogue is meant to function without *at least* darkvision.
No, those are pretty reasonable. I like them. And in fact the Devs have said there are some cool new rogue talents on the way. Let's hope.
Here's my NON-shameless and fairly reasonable idea:
Take the Talents such as :
Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the rogue's level. Activating this ability is an immediate action that can only be performed when she is brought to below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. If the rogue's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal.
Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced talent, the rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.
and make them 3X per day + DEX bonus.
Suggestion for Rogue Talents:
Fluff for all Talents:
Rogues hone their awareness to almost supernatural levels. Knowing where they are in the dark can be the difference between life and death. Something as subtle as a tiny change in the ambient temperature or pressure can alert a master to the presence of an enemy.Low Light Vision (Ex):
Prerequisites: None.
The Rogue can see twice as far in low light, if she did not already as a racial trait.Darkvision (Ex):
Prerequisites: Low Light Vision Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue Gains Darkvision 60ft.Blindsense (Ex):
Prerequisites: Darkvision Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue gains Blindsense 40ft.Blindsight (Ex):
Prerequisites: Blindsense Racial Trait or Rogue Talent.
The Rogue gains Blindsight to 40ft.*Edit* Reviewing this post, a four-feat chain to gain blindsight is not a "Shameless Boost"(tm). Two feats for 40ft Blindsense and Blindsight might well be enough, with minor contextual caveats (must have seen the area in dim light, only has awareness of creatures within 20ft, etc). I have absolutely no idea how a rogue is meant to function without *at least* darkvision.
No, those are pretty reasonable. I like them. And in fact the Devs have said there are some cool new rogue talents on the way. Let's hope.
Here's my NON-shameless and fairly reasonable idea:
Take the Talents such as :
Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the rogue's level. Activating this ability is an immediate action that can only be performed when she is brought to below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. If the rogue's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal.
Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced talent, the rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than...
you just addressed my number one gripe with the rogue class. They have quite a few abilities that are once a day that have no business being so, thematically or mechanically.
Right. I mean, the Wizard has similar school abilities and they are almost always 3+ Int bonus.
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Shameless would be: rogue talent gives you Blindsight straight away... no prereqs/chain build up... that would be shameless... the rogues would have an edge on other classes! oh noes! :)
I'm still holding out for Tremorsense.
Although I still like the idea of SA d6's scaling up to d8's and d10's. Maybe they should just naturally scale, like a monk's unarmed damage?
People seem to think most barbarian rage powers are pretty decent, while most rogue talents aren't. If all the other classes get to steal the rogue's trapfinding and SA, why can't the rogue steal a little something back? Isn't that what rogues are about? How about Superstition or CAGM as rogue talents? How about a few totems re-fluffed as rogue talents?
Just imagine: a Scout with Pounce. Sure, Scout's Charge only applies to the first attack anyway, but getting all your iteratives back (plus the +2 charge bonus) sounds like it'd be worth a rogue talent to me. Heck, even Spirit Totem would look better on the rogue than it does on the barbarian-- rogues are more likely to have good CHA and a Thug or Rake is arguable better at Intimidating than a Barbarian with Intimidating Prowess.