So I was talking to one of my players today and I was explaining to him that AC is great for classes that neither have a great deal of spells that offer concealment, nor have access to item creation feats, nor any way to mitigate taken damage.
He was obviously confused.
I went on to explain that a dedicated caster or int-based Gish it is unrealistic to think that he will be able to pump his AC high enough to avoid getting hit by enemies. The highest CR 20 chance to hit--if I recalled correctly--is around +38 to hit. Lets assume 40 for good measure.-- This means that at level 20 if you have AC 50 you have a 50/50 chance of being hit. This is also prohibitively expensive.
Instead he wants Mirror Image AND Displacement as backups to protect himself. If possible make a single magical item that does both 9th level Mirror image and 9th level Displacement.
On average he would have 7 mirror images (12% chance to be hit instead of clone) and a 50% miss chance.
Therefore enemies when attacking him has a 6% chance to hit him in defeating Displacement AND mirror image. They effectively have to roll a critical success through the miss chance to hit.
This might be more expensive than a +5 suit of mithral full-plate, +5 shield, +5 ring of protection, +5 Amulet of Natural armor, but all of that doesn't ensure that the vast majority of enemies will have a terrible hit chance. For all times where he is not under this effect a ring of invisibility will keep him safe as a passive defense.
You don't need to have AC when your effective AC is ∞ where crits will almost always confirm. Sure, he doesn't want to get wailed on, but he will be able to survive far easier than some of the melees on his team against opponents reliant on sight.
Is my assumption in what I told him correct, or have I ran into a flaw in my advice to my budding gish player? AC is nice for low levels, but it quickly becomes antiquated for someone with Arcane Spell Failure.
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Your are correct, sort of, but I wouldn't tell him to neglect AC entirely. Having both a solid AC AND those special defenses will make him extremely formidable.
I think it depends on Lots of stuff. When true seeing is somthing that monsters have your defense will be non existing. But AC will still be there. What class is the character in question?,i dont think making costum items that cast low level spells is gonna save the Day.
I think your reasoning starts the wrong place. There is no absolute rule about AC even with out crap like simulacrum solars you can have ok AC as a Spell caster and IMOP ignoring AC May be a mistake.
Only somewhat relevant, but a CR 20 encounter is more appropriate for a level 15-16 party usually. By level 20 your looking more at cr 25 monsters for single enemy encounters (or more likely 2 23's)
I think it depends on Lots of stuff. When true seeing is somthing that monsters have your defense will be non existing. But AC will still be there. What class is the character in question?,i dont think making costum items that cast low level spells is gonna save the Day.
I think your reasoning starts the wrong place. There is no absolute rule about AC even with out crap like simulacrum solars you can have ok AC as a Spell caster and IMOP ignoring AC May be a mistake.
He wants to do a Wizard/Fighter/EK/ build so he gets 9th level casting and decent HP and BaB. He subscribes to the same "Min-max to be completely awesome do you don't need to worry about the character mechanically and can focus on RP" idea as myself. So while he might be able to eventually "carry" the group through hard situations he is not an island. Death is just as likely to fall on him as the others.
In short I pointed out that if he plays a Sorc he can have lower casting ability in exchange for stupidly high AC by being able to add Cha to AC multiple times via various class abilities and feats, but he wants to do full casting instead. He wants to be the best Gish he can be, and while he is going to invest in armor and AC early on he is also going to be the group's crafter so he is taking all of the crafting feats.
He is going to be the extremely knowledgeable crafting offense character with high STR and Int.
Before he can afford the cool stuff he is likely going to focus on giving hemself DR with Defending Bone and then Stoneskin after that while negating the cost with Blood Money.
I believe his progression is Aasimar Fighter > Wizard > EK 1 > 10 > Undeclared, but possibly Mystery Cultist since he isn't lawful.
I think his intentions are to avoid direct confrontation with creatures that have innate True Seeing, or to try and dispel trueseeing from characters who cast it and he makes the spellcraft to identify it. He has stated that he will be trying to coup de grace as much as possible with Ghoul Touch and the Hold series, though those don't work on outsiders.
The true seeing thing can be avoided with nondetection early on and then completed ignored with mind blank at higher levels. It only really has much value in the mid levels.
Also while he is going EK he can still stay at range if need be. True Seeing range is only 120' allowing you to largely avoid it in many outdoor encounters.
When the bad guy realizes his true seeing is not working, he will likely drop a dispel magic, and quiet a few high level monsters have access to it.
I think it depends on Lots of stuff. When true seeing is somthing that monsters have your defense will be non existing. But AC will still be there. What class is the character in question?,i dont think making costum items that cast low level spells is gonna save the Day.
I think your reasoning starts the wrong place. There is no absolute rule about AC even with out crap like simulacrum solars you can have ok AC as a Spell caster and IMOP ignoring AC May be a mistake.He wants to do a Wizard/Fighter/EK/ build so he gets 9th level casting and decent HP and BaB. He subscribes to the same "Min-max to be completely awesome do you don't need to worry about the character mechanically and can focus on RP" idea as myself. So while he might be able to eventually "carry" the group through hard situations he is not an island. Death is just as likely to fall on him as the others.
In short I pointed out that if he plays a Sorc he can have lower casting ability in exchange for stupidly high AC by being able to add Cha to AC multiple times via various class abilities and feats, but he wants to do full casting instead. He wants to be the best Gish he can be, and while he is going to invest in armor and AC early on he is also going to be the group's crafter so he is taking all of the crafting feats.
He is going to be the extremely knowledgeable crafting offense character with high STR and Int.Before he can afford the cool stuff he is likely going to focus on giving hemself DR with Defending Bone and then Stoneskin after that while negating the cost with Blood Money.
I believe his progression is Aasimar Fighter > Wizard > EK 1 > 10 > Undeclared, but possibly Mystery Cultist since he isn't lawful.
I think his intentions are to avoid direct confrontation with creatures that have innate True Seeing, or to try and dispel trueseeing from characters who cast it and he makes the spellcraft to identify it. He has stated that he will be trying to coup de grace as much as possible with...
I have never seen a min/maxed build that was so awesome that the mechanical ditent matter any more, but pehaps i just dont undestand what you meen.
How do you get cha to AC several times releyablei in PF?If he want to do full casting tell him not to waste 2 levels on swordmanship:)
We have established in preciøs threads that you and i play the game differently but if he goes Figther/ wizard/ EK/ x then i guess your originall say about AC being too expensive is correct. He will get mindblank at 17 then he can foil true seeing.
Only somewhat relevant, but a CR 20 encounter is more appropriate for a level 15-16 party usually. By level 20 your looking more at cr 25 monsters for single enemy encounters (or more likely 2 23's)
this is true if encounters is against one big monster, but Lots of folks make encounters against several lower CL baddies because it often makes for more exiting and challenging battles.
The true seeing thing can be avoided with nondetection early on and then completed ignored with mind blank at higher levels. It only really has much value in the mid levels.
Also while he is going EK he can still stay at range if need be. True Seeing range is only 120' allowing you to largely avoid it in many outdoor encounters.
As an aside, does Non-Detection void/oppose all divination spells, or just those types in the example? Since it'd nullify much higher level spells.
I have never seen a min/maxed build that was so awesome that the mechanical ditent matter any more, but pehaps i just dont undestand what you meen.
How do you get cha to AC several times releyablei in PF?
If he want to do full casting tell him not to waste 2 levels on swordmanship:)
We have established in preciøs threads that you and i play the game differently but if he goes Figther/ wizard/ EK/ x then i guess your originall say about AC being too expensive is correct. He will get mindblank at 17 then he can foil true seeing.
What I mean by mechanically sound that it doesn't matter anymore is that he is making a character that is at least good enough to not be worried about. He knows his character should be able to survive reasonably well so he doesn't need to worry about that character all that much. In short the character is a power character designed to be able to be effective at what he does. He will still have to worry a little later on, but for the most part he has a good idea of what his defensive abilities will be, when to use them, and when to work toward escaping when he needs to.
You can add Cha to AC multiple times with:
Oracle (a few mysteries allows it to replace Dex and either dex to CMD or dex to REF.)
Nereid's Grace (Allows Cha to deflection AC, but one has to find a way to get it on a non Nereid chracter. One option is to be a Scion of Nereidity, which would do it.)
Osyluth Guile (While fighting defensively or total defense select one enemy, you gain your Cha to Dodge against its melee attacks.)
Celestial Obedience (Arshea, Boon 2, Add your Cha bonus to Armor AC while wearing revealing clothing and no armor.)
So if you end up having a Cha of 9 with these you can add 36 to your AC, technically 39 because dodge is a required prereq for Guile and fighting defensively at least is required.
So 49 AC without anything. 54 with an Amulet of Natural Armor. 61 with a maxed Celestial Shield, 58 with a normal celestial shield. If one's weapon is made into a +5 defending weapon then the AC would be 63 - 66.
So, yes, stupidly high AC from mixing class features, feats, and specialized spells. A character that invests solely in Cha can increase that AC by 4 since Cha +10 instead of +9 if they really go for it, AND get full casting if they go Oracle 1/ Sorcerer 19, but far less BaB and HP.
Only somewhat relevant, but a CR 20 encounter is more appropriate for a level 15-16 party usually. By level 20 your looking more at cr 25 monsters for single enemy encounters (or more likely 2 23's)this is true if encounters is against one big monster, but Lots of folks make encounters against several lower CL baddies because it often makes for more exiting and challenging battles.
Oh, hell yes. I don't even bother with a single big baddy, it is kind of stupid to do it.
Lets take this Mirror image Displacement using caster. Each time someone "hits" one of his mirror images his to hit goes down until it is eventually 50%. If there are a lot of enemies they can threaten the entire party at once, but furthermore this overly specialized defense is worthless against AOE attacks, which many enemies at higher levels have.Furthermore it is always more dangerous to the party if they are facing 4 enemies with AOE attacks instead of 1 enemy with super-high chance to hit and obscene damage. The entire party is injured instead of one person being smashed into the ground.
I am confused.
First you write "AC isn't everything" in the title and then say that the player doesn't want to focus on AC.
And in the second post you explain he is playing an armored caster anyway so his AC won't be too bad either.
? ? ?
But going by what other people have posted...
True seeing or other high level magic is not really necessary to pierce a defense of illusions and other miss chances.
The scent or blindsense ability many creatures (including normal animals) possess can foil invisibility and mirror image (to some degree). It is very common among monstrous enemies and still appears often enough in other races. Some undead possess lifesense that works in a similar way.
Blindfight allows 2 rolls on miss chances which helps a lot as well.
And then there is blindsight and tremorsense, two abilities that negate all illusion based defenses completely.
I am confused.
First you write "AC isn't everything" in the title and then say that the player doesn't want to focus on AC.
And in the second post you explain he is playing an armored caster anyway so his AC won't be too bad either.
? ? ?
... Seriously? Really? <_< >_> Really?
Ok, allow me to explain. Buying and wearing armor at level 1 - 5 before you can afford your super-specialized defense of awesome is great, while inexpensive.When I talk about people who are playing Armor based characters I'm talking about at level 15-20 when people have invested in high end amulets, rings, armors, and shields to make themselves as unhittable as possible. Not the low levels where the PCs are paid in chump-change and using mundane armor that they can hand off or pawn without major issues. Selling that chain shirt for half value isn't bad. However, selling that +5 full plate is a disaster for the PC's overall gold.
He wants to play an INT based Gish, not a CHA based gish. One has many more options than the other in terms of defense, but INT has more useful skills when played right. That and an INT gish will be able to identify almost every spell cast that he can identify.
Basically it is an issue of META.
I have never seen a min/maxed build that was so awesome that the mechanical ditent matter any more, but pehaps i just dont undestand what you meen.
How do you get cha to AC several times releyablei in PF?
If he want to do full casting tell him not to waste 2 levels on swordmanship:)
We have established in preciøs threads that you and i play the game differently but if he goes Figther/ wizard/ EK/ x then i guess your originall say about AC being too expensive is correct. He will get mindblank at 17 then he can foil true seeing.What I mean by mechanically sound that it doesn't matter anymore is that he is making a character that is at least good enough to not be worried about. He knows his character should be able to survive reasonably well so he doesn't need to worry about that character all that much. In short the character is a power character designed to be able to be effective at what he does. He will still have to worry a little later on, but for the most part he has a good idea of what his defensive abilities will be, when to use them, and when to work toward escaping when he needs to.
You can add Cha to AC multiple times with:
Oracle (a few mysteries allows it to replace Dex and either dex to CMD or dex to REF.)
Nereid's Grace (Allows Cha to deflection AC, but one has to find a way to get it on a non Nereid chracter. One option is to be a Scion of Nereidity, which would do it.)
Osyluth Guile (While fighting defensively or total defense select one enemy, you gain your Cha to Dodge against its melee attacks.)
Celestial Obedience (Arshea, Boon 2, Add your Cha bonus to Armor AC while wearing revealing clothing and no armor.)
So if you end up having a Cha of 9 with these you can add 36 to your AC, technically 39 because dodge is a required prereq for Guile and fighting defensively at least is required.So 49 AC without anything. 54 with an Amulet of Natural Armor. 61 with a maxed Celestial Shield, 58 with a normal celestial shield. If one's weapon is made...
What is scion of nerediti? It is a undine you need to be and they are native outsiders not humanoids :( and nerids grace is a round pr level Spell and it is deflection so no stacking with a ring. Osyluth guile is ok, against one opponent, if he expect to figth defensively a lot. But i dont think he can keep him self relevant in a figth as a EK figthing defensively. The boon i dont know anything about but he can wearva tank top:) and the oracle cost a level dip and is instead of dex.
I thought in cases like this you could only add a specific abiltiy score one time...as in no double dipping (quad dipping for this one I guess)
Aasimar can be from any race, Scion of Humanity assumes that the Aasimar is born from a human. If the Aasimar comes from a Ratfolk background then he wouldn't magically have human ancestry in him, he would have Ratfolk ancestry in him. Therefore, he would not be a Scion of Humanity but a Scion of Ratfolkity.
Therefore, on that same logic, he could be a scion of Nereid-ity to qualify for all traits, feats, ~racial spells~, etc. This, I assume, is an oversight of the developers on wording.
Though, long story short he could still find a Nereid, convince it to create bracers of Nereid's Grace (constant or Command Word CL 1 - 20) and get it that way.
I am aware that it does not stack with the Ring, which is why he'd end up having a ton of money left over. It is more or less a "you have tons of money to spend on things" build.
Gishes need a purpose when they are built. The "add your cha to AC 4 times" build is more or less just that, have potentially insane AC while being able to do other things. For added kicks throw in 2 levels of Paladin and have stupid saves as well. Caster level is doomed, but who cares.
It would have to go Paladin 2/Oracle 1/ Sorcerer 17 for a maxed defenses build that maximizes saves and AC to a stupidly high degree. Sure it is specialized, but if he knows this when he goes in then he can take advantage of it. The above build would have 8th level casting, but less HP. Stupid AC, all saves stupidly high, and lots of cool stuff from Sorcerer. At that point with a cloak of Resistance +5 he'd have +15 to all saves if he went the all-out Cha build, so around Fort +22(10+5+5+2+0), Ref +20 or 30(10+5+5+0+0[+10]), Will +29(10+5+10+2+2) with an AC easily around 66.
Some of the mysteries allow the addition of Cha to Reflex instead of CMD, that is why Reflex is +20 or +30.
I thought in cases like this you could only add a specific abiltiy score one time...as in no double dipping (quad dipping for this one I guess)
They all give different bonuses, so if you can show me an FAQ saying so.... Or cite a source that we can look at online....
I think the end story is this: If you have a power party that kills everything instantly then this is a fantastic counter to them.
Wow that's about the most jerk way of answering I've heard...i started with "I thought" for a reason
You didn't actually give any links to anything you listed so I was going off you just adding CHA to AC...I've now looked and see that they are different types
You could have stopped at "they all give different bonuses" and not been a dick about it
Also please don't send me personal messages in the same jerk fashion
Wow that's about the most jerk way of answering I've heard...i started with "I thought" for a reason
You didn't actually give any links to anything you listed so I was going off you just adding CHA to AC...I've now looked and see that they are different types
You could have stopped at "they all give different bonuses" and not been a dick about it
Also please don't send me personal messages in the same jerk fashion
I think you are projecting intentions where there are none. I was simply asking if there was actually an FAQ or resource stating contrary since I can then use that to invalidate this build. Perhaps you had a source I haven't read so we can examine it.
Discussing the possibilities of what happens at level 20, is a bit insane and neat for forums but usually useless for 95% of games and players. Here's a CR20 vs level 20 Class X: blah blah blah. Neat for forums, but helpful to the average player? Hmmm.
Anyway, a wizard needs to think about defense differently. Walls of stone come to mind. Hordes of summoned creatures in the way come to mind.
If these things don't come to mind to a caster as a way of protecting themselves, then they might not be a very good wizard.
In general, at higher levels the game becomes rocket tag. Whomever goes first, and either deals unbelievable damage off the bat, or casts a spell that almost negates the other's attack/ability or changes the battlefield completely, wins. Not always, but usually. So, you have to tell the players to start thinking strategically, not just running into every battle willy-nilly and hoping their AC is high enough. Might work a few times, but that's a suicide mentality that will eventually end in a player or party wipe rather quickly.
Yea I'm sure nothing snide was meant...
Ellipses after a statement is meant to convey silence or maybe a feeling of melancholy/longing. In my sentence above it's meant as blatant sarcasm. In your post it seemed to me the silence when someone is being a smartass, if that was not meant then I apologize. Use your ellipses wisely.
Without reading all the way thorugh, the biggest issue I have with the original post is the assumption that a GM should let you make an item that casts Mirror Image and Displacement. Personally, I don't the crafting of "custom" items should be allowed at all, and only those items that exist within the "core" lineup of books should be valid for creation.
Now, telling him to pick up a wand of Mirror Image and a wand of Displacement and spend two rounds buffing...not an awful way to go. But, that loss of offensive action is significant, and thats the point.
Instead he wants Mirror Image AND Displacement as backups to protect himself. If possible make a single magical item that does both 9th level Mirror image and 9th level Displacement.
On average he would have 7 mirror images (12% chance to be hit instead of clone) and a 50% miss chance.
Therefore enemies when attacking him has a 6% chance to hit him in defeating Displacement AND mirror image. They effectively have to roll a critical success through the miss chance to hit.
It helps his action economy for shure, if he gets an item, that does both. If you allow such a custom item is totally up to you.
Still the Mirror Images go away if hit, therefore the chance of hitting him will grow pretty fast especially if he fights multiple enemies.
He will also still be affected normally by enemies with True Seeing(e.g. high level demons), blindsight and similar abilities.
He is also quite f%#!ed, if the group gets attacked by some AoE greater dispel magic(especially with lvl 9 buffs to keep the cost low). This is a common tactic at high levels.
If he lacks an awesome offense too, his defense cannot and will not help him much.
You can just have the enmies focus someone else.
AC 60 whatever is cool... when a large chunk isn't situational. Being a scry and fry works better in my experience but if so and so wants a melee sorc... m'kay to each their own, might outshine a mundane full bab yet still be outshined by even a lightly optimized full caster.
Aasimar can be from any race, Scion of Humanity assumes that the Aasimar is born from a human. If the Aasimar comes from a Ratfolk background then he wouldn't magically have human ancestry in him, he would have Ratfolk ancestry in him. Therefore, he would not be a Scion of Humanity but a Scion of Ratfolkity.
Therefore, on that same logic, he could be a scion of Nereid-ity to qualify for all traits, feats, ~racial spells~, etc. This, I assume, is an oversight of the developers on wording.
Though, long story short he could still find a Nereid, convince it to create bracers of Nereid's Grace (constant or Command Word CL 1 - 20) and get it that way.
I am aware that it does not stack with the Ring, which is why he'd end up having a ton of money left over. It is more or less a "you have tons of money to spend on things" build.Gishes need a purpose when they are built. The "add your cha to AC 4 times" build is more or less just that, have potentially insane AC while being able to do other things. For added kicks throw in 2 levels of Paladin and have stupid saves as well. Caster level is doomed, but who cares.
It would have to go Paladin 2/Oracle 1/ Sorcerer 17 for a maxed defenses build that maximizes saves and AC to a stupidly high degree. Sure it is specialized, but if he knows this when he goes in then he can take advantage of it. The above build would have 8th level casting, but less HP. Stupid AC, all saves stupidly high, and lots of cool stuff from Sorcerer. At that point with a cloak of Resistance +5 he'd have +15 to all saves if he went the all-out Cha build, so around Fort +22(10+5+5+2+0), Ref +20 or 30(10+5+5+0+0[+10]), Will +29(10+5+10+2+2) with an AC easily around 66.
Some of the mysteries allow the addition of Cha to Reflex instead of CMD, that is why Reflex is +20 or +30.I thought in cases like this you could only add a specific abiltiy score one time...as in no double dipping (quad dipping for this one I guess)They all give different bonuses, so...
I Think you Will benefit from re Reading the magic item creation guide lines, Taku. I realize that we play the game in different ways and that is good but it always amazes me how you seem to belive the rules work:)
Good luck with your game.Edit: i suggest you consider before you let a player play a CL 10 Day with celestial blood:)
I Think you Will benefit from re Reading the magic item creation guide lines, Taku. I realize that we play the game in different ways and that is good but it always amazes me how you seem to belive the rules work:)
Good luck with your game.
Edit: i suggest you consider before you let a player play a CL 10 Day with celestial blood:)
Do keep in mind that this is all speculation until I actually start building things, at which point I do rigorously check the rules to make sure everything is legal.