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Question that has come up fairly regularly: if my Paladin smites evil, do I know immediately (before attacking) whether the smite works or not?
This comes up from time to time in parties with multiple Paladins or a Paladin with Aura of Justice. If the first smite fizzles on a non-evil enemy, can that Paladin warn off the others not to waste their smites?
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I don't think there is anything written in the rulebook to cover this but I always rule that the paladin knows if it works or not. The smite evil text says "...a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil..." so I equate that to mean if it works then the paladin would feel some kind of divine surge throughout their body.
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Yes, but sometimes circumstances (today, innocent prisoners about to get gutted) that encourage save-the-peasants-first-ask-questions-later behavior.
:-)
I can't find any solid answer, and I'm always fine accepting GM adjudication, but it's come up enough (I play a lot of Paladins and so does a guy I play with a lot) that I wanted to see if there was more solid info out there.
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[Previous post edited to add a bit of content.]
Still doesn't require a smite.
Sure. But it's not an unreasonable choice, in-character (or meta), in at least *some* situations.
But I'm not here to argue about how one ought to play a Paladin (especially since it seems to be a pet peeve of yours). I'm here to learn if there's a solid answer out there that I can refer to for the future when it comes up.
But, I do not believe there are any rules for determining smite "success".
I want to know if the Paladin knows (automatically or after attacking) when the smite fails:
If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
A GM could even just decide to apply the Paladin's to-hit and damage bonuses "behind the screen".
Yes, absolutely. That would be a reasonable GM call.
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But, I do not believe there are any rules for determining smite "success".I want to know if the Paladin knows (automatically or after attacking) when the smite fails:
If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
I imagine the phrase "wasted with no effect" means just that.
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Thank you for not taking this further off topic, Nefreet.
(Though I should note that "murder" isn't necessarily in the cards: Blade of Mercy, or other nonlethal, or knocking unconscious and then stabilizing are all tactics my Paladins use ... even when [—*gasp*—] they find themselves in a situation where they have to smite first ask questions later.)
ok... before this thread goes off the rails, lemme add my two cents:
this seems similar, rules-wise, to if a character knows whether the target failed the save against their spells (barring obvious signs like damage, effects, etc).
Remember that a paladin can waste smites by trying it on non-evil creatures, so I would say that they would know if it worked or not AFTER the attempt was used - when they went to attack, the bonuses wouldn't be there.
How that is described in-game is up to you: it doesn't feel right, or there are no divine sparks when you hit, or whatever
Then you may have to *gasp* use other means to determine if your deity would determine said creature as "smite material".
If you're dealing with a 3hd Chaotic Evil slaver, I'd think a Paladin could work to convert or redeem them before smiting.
So, assuming you're addressing the above example of a guy about to gut prisoners, you'd wait for him to finish, then chat with him about philosophy to get a read on him?
;P
I'd think that especially at lower levels the extra damage from the smite might be apparent. Some DMs might call for a Perception or Heal check to see if you can notice how hurt the creature is by the attack. A while back I tried using similar checks to let players notice DR they didn't figure out with Knowledge checks, but folks seemed to find that pretty annoying.
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Then you may have to *gasp* use other means to determine if your deity would determine said creature as "smite material".
If you're dealing with a 3hd Chaotic Evil slaver, I'd think a Paladin could work to convert or redeem them before smiting.
So, assuming you're addressing the above example of a guy about to gut prisoners, you'd wait for him to finish, then chat with him about philosophy to get a read on him?
;P
Personally?
I'd stop him from gutting said prisoners. Any way I could.
But I wouldn't Smite.
What if he was another Paladin, delivering a merciful coup de grace to a Demon in disguise, that he just got done interrogating?
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...then it wouldn't hurt him at all? You're talking about Smite Evil like it's some sort of nuclear-weapon-last-resort kinda deal. If you smite another paladin, you just, like, don't hurt him. That's what makes Smite Evil so handy: It smites, well, evil.
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ok... before this thread goes off the rails ...
Yeah, I hadn't done a Paladin thread before. Didn't realize that even my narrow question would stir this up.
Everyone, I'd appreciate it if we could keep the discussion strictly on-topic and avoid the question of how to play a Paladin. I apologize for getting into the discussion a bit above.
... lemme add my two cents:
this seems similar, rules-wise, to if a character knows whether the target failed the save against their spells (barring obvious signs like damage, effects, etc).
Remember that a paladin can waste smites by trying it on non-evil creatures, so I would say that they would know if it worked or not AFTER the attempt was used - when they went to attack, the bonuses wouldn't be there.
How that is described in-game is up to you: it doesn't feel right, or there are no divine sparks when you hit, or whatever
Sure, I think it's reasonable to rule that the Paladin knows *after* she attempts to attack. But as Nefreet pointed out above, a GM may well decide to withhold information even then.
And the case I'm more concerned with is the case in which the Paladin smites a distant target but can't reach it for an attack before an ally has to decide whether or not to smite. (This comes up with Aura of Justice, e.g., when allies have to use it that round right then.)
I think what you mean to say is, "I'd kill as a last resort". Smite Evil is just a boost to damage. It's like saying, "Power Attack is a last resort", or "A barbarian's rage is a last resort".
ok... before this thread goes off the rails ...Yeah, I hadn't done a Paladin thread before. Didn't realize that even my narrow question would stir this up.
Alright, I'll drop the alignment matter.
That being said, I'm not sure there's much on this topic to talk about. Most GMs I know would flavor a smite as a visible blast of "holy energy" or the like. Some might say otherwise.
The smart paladin still casts detect evil first, of course. No sense risking a wasted use of your best ability.
Frankly if my paladin saw someone performing a clearly evil deed (even if it's a ruse - my character doesn't have to know that, he'll feel stupid after he finds out but..well..) and posing a solid threat I'd find that reason enough to smite - even if it runs the risk of a wasted smite.
in other words - ask first? the answer is right there in plain sight!
meanwhile even if it doesn't work ot its full there's still that vague fragment about ignoring DR regardless of success
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'm not sure there's much on this topic to talk about. Most GMs I know would flavor a smite as a visible blast of "holy energy" or the like. Some might say otherwise.
Yep. I posted in case there's a designer clarification hiding somewhere that somebody could point to.
Failing that, I guess click the FAQ flag to get this on the list. It's a very low-priority question—no trouble just to accept GM adjudication on a case-by-case basis—but may as well get it on the list and see if the PDT feels like answering it eventually!
Of course, the issue of "Should I attack with lethal force when I don't know the whole story?" is a whole other matter that we're just not gonna touch here.
EDIT: FYI, I recently heard that they don't really like people asking for FAQs. It seems a tad silly to me (I mean, seeing that one guy has FAQ'd the post is gonna make people think of it anyways), but whatevs.
No, I mean "I'd only Smite after knowing my target is Evil".
My current Paladin is a Redeemer Archetype, from the ARG. He cannot detect evil. It shouldn't count against him.
Im gonna go and throw my 2 cents in and say after. Remember in pathfinder "smite evil" is a buff on the paladin and isnt "on" the target. So the wasted effort would be realized when u attacked the target. If this was 3.5 i woukd rule u woukd know before but since pathfinder made smite evil a buff and not an attack itself, u wont know til afterards.
Edit-since ive found that ruling i have since described the paladin starts emiting and being surrounded by holy light or fire and when the paladin strikes the target, it flares up when striking an evil creature and winks out when striking something that isnt evil.