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So, Who here is willing say that Haste, when you account for general effectiveness returned versus spell level, is the single most powerful spell in pathfinder?
I am. Other spells may be more powerful in absolute terms, but none so consistently and drastically effect an encounter, at such an early level, and remain so tremendously effective into the highest levels as haste.
If Haste didn't already exist and a player came to me with Haste as a custom spell, I would say "Okay, this looks cool, but it's not a 3rd level spell, make it 6th level and you've got a deal".
If that seems extreme to you, look at 6th level Transmutations and ask yourself honestly, Would I rather cast Mass Bull's strength, Disintegrate or Haste? Well, Disintegrate might deal a fair amount of damage, but it requires an attack roll... And allows a save... And probably won't deal as much damage as hasting your party works out to anyway.
I motion that haste be Crane Winged. Yay? Nay?
It's a great and wonderful spell, but speaking as a bard player, I do not want to see Haste level-adjusted. Getting it at 7th level is late enough, but I can agree 4th level access for summoners as a second level spell seems wrong.
Is it the best spell in the game? I don't know actually, I often find myself not knowing whether to start with Good Hope or Haste if I haven't had time to get the former up beforehand. Because +2 to attack, damage, all skills, saves and ability checks might be worth giving up the extra movement, attack, +1 reflex save, +1 dodge bonus to AC and +1 to hit.
Maybe my priorities are just off, but I can indeed find it hard to choose, and I'm not even sure which one I usually end up casting first.
I'd rate Blessing of Fervor as being more powerful than Haste.
Haste got a lot weaker when they changed it to not let you cast multiple spells in a round.
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If that seems extreme to you, look at 6th level Transmutations and ask yourself honestly, Would I rather cast Mass Bull's strength, Disintegrate or Haste? Well, Disintegrate might deal a fair amount of damage, but it requires an attack roll... And allows a save... And probably won't deal as much damage as hasting your party works out to anyway.
I motion that haste be Crane Winged. Yay? Nay?
Nay. Nothing should ever be nerfed again to the extent that Crane Wing was nerfed. Ever.
For the spell level, you looked at one of the weakest 6th level transmutations in comparisons, then one that is among the strongest spells for one of the weakest forms of spellcasting:Single-target damage. Looking at other high-level Transmutations, you have Baleful Polymorph and Flesh to Stone, which both will take a single enemy out of the entire fight.
I say that it might be better as a 4th level spell for a full arcane spellcaster, 3rd for summoners, and the rest who get it keeps it the same.
But seriously, the Crane Wing nerf went way too far. It should never happen again. Ever.
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I'm not all that worried about spells that make fights easier.
It's the spells that circumvent or negate adventures and plots that I hate ... primarily in the divination department, and spells like Overland Flight and Teleport.
It's a great and wonderful spell, but speaking as a bard player, I do not want to see Haste level-adjusted. Getting it at 7th level is late enough, but I can agree 4th level access for summoners as a second level spell seems wrong.
Is it the best spell in the game? I don't know actually, I often find myself not knowing whether to start with Good Hope or Haste if I haven't had time to get the former up beforehand. Because +2 to attack, damage, all skills, saves and ability checks might be worth giving up the extra movement, attack, +1 reflex save, +1 dodge bonus to AC and +1 to hit.
Maybe my priorities are just off, but I can indeed find it hard to choose, and I'm not even sure which one I usually end up casting first.
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Super-Wizard! UP AND AWAY!
And then he finds himself alone with the BBEG. He didn't think that through. ;D
I like the Blessing of Fervor version in that you have to choose between several options. Haste is overloaded.
From a personal standpoint? I'd hate it if Haste was nerfed.
If I was a designer on the team? I'd probably never let it have as many potential targets as it does. One target per cast is still a significant boost when placed on the right target.
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I'd counter that Light is a far more powerful spell for it's investment. It's spammable at will, lasts 10 minutes a level and negates 50% miss chance for all party members that don't have darkvision. So about half of everyone's attacks end up being made thanks to Light. And miss chance negates sneak attack, so all that sneak attack damage they manage to deal can be attributed to Light as well. Find me another 0th level spell capable of that.
Dancing Lights?
;)
Countered by, "Light has to have a focal point to be cast on," and "cannot be in four different places at once."
Both can be made Permanent, and both are spamable, making duration irrelevant.
Also, Light does not have superior illumination. Both spells shed light "as a torch." The Light spell just goes on to describe torchlight where the Dancing Lights spell doesn't.
On the other hand, however, Dancing Lights can choose to shed light as a "lantern" which is 30ft+30ft instead of 20ft+20ft.
:D
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Touche. I was going off memory and thought Dancing Lights mostly inferior. Though the lights from dancing lights does need to stay within 10' of each other. Also Light isn't dismissable. Didn't realize that before. And Dancing Light is only 1 minute, not 1 per level, another thing I need to remember.
So I may have to say Dancing Lights may be a bit superior.
Thanks Neo2151!
Haste already got nerfed once in the jump from 3.0 to 3.5.
It now only benefits you if you take a full attack, and the other buffs seem very appropriate for the spell level used.
Mind you that Expeditious Retreat is a 1st level spell.
Also, Light is more specialized, since the "bonus damage" is only applied in dark areas to people without Darkvision. And it's easily replicated with minimal expense by a sunrod.
I agree in that Haste/Slow is way overpowered for its spell level.
Our group decided to reduce its basic effectiveness: It removed the +1/-1 to Hit, AC, and Reflex Saves, and made it a single target effect. It granted increased movement or an extra attack/decreased movement and the Staggered condition, but as a 3rd level spell which works for 5 rounds (the average duration of a given combat), it should last the entire encounter unless dispelled, which is still a pain.
To still allow the base effects later down the road, we decided to allow a Greater Haste/Slow spell at 5th, having the same effects as Haste/Slow is currently written.
I really enjoy it, and it still makes the combats difficult while not making it a De Facto spell.
I for one, am with you. I've often thought about House-ruling haste to be 5th level. I agree with about everything you said. Blessing of Fervor is also powerful but it is 5th level, so appropriate.
Personally I think that Haste should be nerfed to single target, close range, at leas, if kept at 3rd. If not raised in spell level as written, since only a few seem to agree with that solution.
I'm aware of the 3rd edition version, and while it made casters even more powerful, not everyone agrees that the 3.5 version was a nerf. Some are of the oppinion that it was actually a "stealth" buff to the overall effectiveness of the party, while making it less of a "one man Wizard celebration".
Eh I don't think haste needs a nerf. It's one of the best kinds of spells. Powerful, but not directly for the caster.
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Haste stronk! But it will never be nerfed because it's a spell and Paizo prefers casters.
Crane wing? Let martials be cool and was therefore against paizo design philosophy.
When I saw the Crane Wing errata it made me kind of sad. Not because of the changes to crane wing, I've never played with anyone who uses it, but because I knew there would be people asking "what should we 'crane wing' next?" I think it set a bad precedent.
I could live with haste being 4th or 5th level.
Eh I don't think haste needs a nerf. It's one of the best kinds of spells. Powerful, but not directly for the caster.
I think there is a problem when I feel guilty for preparing dispel magic or tiny hut thinking "this could have been another haste", or "that enervation could be an extended haste".
My Wizard shouldn't be having breakdowns like he's f*$&ing Oskar Schindler at the end of the movie... Spoilers...
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I could live with haste being 4th or 5th level.
I could live with Haste being gone, if martials got boosted so that they weren't reliant on spellcasters.
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When I saw the Crane Wing errata it made me kind of sad. Not because of the changes to crane wing, I've never played with anyone who uses it, but because I knew there would be people asking "what should we 'crane wing' next?" I think it set a bad precedent.I disliked it because it was an option that only benefited martial characters, and only detracted from martial melee characters. It was of no use to your typical Wizard, Sorcerer, With, etc. But Slumber and such things that are caster-only got largely left alone.
I think there is a problem when I feel guilty for preparing dispel magic or tiny hut thinking "this could have been another haste", or "that enervation could be an extended haste".
My Wizard shouldn't be having breakdowns like he's f*$&ing Oskar Schindler at the end of the movie... Spoilers...
Well, is your Wizard a Buffer, Debuffer, Blaster, or Controller? Because only a buffer should feel anything wrong with not preparing at least 1 haste. The rest of wizard playstyles should probably have a Dispel Magic or three on hand most of the time.
Eh I don't think haste needs a nerf. It's one of the best kinds of spells. Powerful, but not directly for the caster.I think there is a problem when I feel guilty for preparing dispel magic or tiny hut thinking "this could have been another haste", or "that enervation could be an extended haste".
My Wizard shouldn't be having breakdowns like he's f*$&ing Oskar Schindler at the end of the movie... Spoilers...
Make it a wand and hand it off to your familiar or rogue if it's that much of a problem.
IMHO: The support spells are meant to be better than everything else because they are less flashy and generally make everyone at the table feel great as opposed to the wizard silver bullet-ing encounters.
I disliked it because it was an option that only benefited martial characters, and only detracted from martial melee characters. It was of no use to your typical Wizard, Sorcerer, With, etc. But Slumber and such things that are caster-only got largely left alone.
Yeah I hear ya. Which is another reason I think haste should be left alone. I see some people in this thread saying that paizo would never nerf haste because they supposedly love casters, but ultimately, nerfing haste is a nerf to martials. A primary caster gets a very small fraction of the benefit of haste. In fact, unless you are a bard or a magus you probably have a long list of spells you would prefer to cast instead of haste. Sure, it's a powerful spell, but A. It only affects combat, unlike some of the other extremely powerful spells that allow people to skip entire sections of the plot, and B. It actually helps the very people that everyone says need more help.
I do agree that it's kind of lame that martials are so dependent on an arcane spell, but nerfing haste doesn't help. Maybe if, like Zhayne suggested, martials got something in exchange that made haste unnecessary then haste could be retired, but until I think nerfing it is the wrong idea.
Edit: Also, what Marthkus said so much more succinctly.
I could live with haste being 4th or 5th level.
No boosting level of Bard or Sumonmer haste and I can live with the others haste being higher.
When I saw the Crane Wing errata it made me kind of sad. Not because of the changes to crane wing, I've never played with anyone who uses it, but because I knew there would be people asking "what should we 'crane wing' next?" I think it set a bad precedent.I disliked it because it was an option that only benefited martial characters, and only detracted from martial melee characters. It was of no use to your typical Wizard, Sorcerer, With, etc. But Slumber and such things that are caster-only got largely left alone.Well, is your Wizard a Buffer, Debuffer, Blaster, or Controller? Because only a buffer should feel anything wrong with not preparing at least 1 haste. The rest of wizard playstyles should probably have a Dispel Magic or three on hand most of the time.I think there is a problem when I feel guilty for preparing dispel magic or tiny hut thinking "this could have been another haste", or "that enervation could be an extended haste".
My Wizard shouldn't be having breakdowns like he's f*$&ing Oskar Schindler at the end of the movie... Spoilers...
My point is that it doesn't matter what flavor of caster I bring, Haste is Haste. It's not like blasting or enchantment, which require investment to be effective, all haste requires is a party that includes characters that use the full attack action.
Did you prepare haste? if so your Wizard is now a buffer, never mind that you don't even have any other buff spells, Haste is just that good.
Did you prepare fireball? if so you should feel bad, because you made the Paladin and the Rogue cry.
Eh I don't think haste needs a nerf. It's one of the best kinds of spells. Powerful, but not directly for the caster.I think there is a problem when I feel guilty for preparing dispel magic or tiny hut thinking "this could have been another haste", or "that enervation could be an extended haste".
My Wizard shouldn't be having breakdowns like he's f*$&ing Oskar Schindler at the end of the movie... Spoilers...
Make it a wand and hand it off to your familiar or rogue if it's that much of a problem.
Don't think that I don't. But that doesn't address the issue (that Haste is just to much for a 3rd level spell), it just means I'm spending a fortune (and a feat) crafting wands, even if it is a good investment. And that isn't even an option at levels when you're still relying on 3rd level spell slots anyway.
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We should outright ban haste. In fact, we should outright ban all spells. Hell, we should ban weapons too, nobody should have nice things in this game. No one.
"Hear Hear!" -- Every monk in the universe
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We should outright ban haste. In fact, we should outright ban all spells. Hell, we should ban weapons too, nobody should have nice things in this game. No one.
I like where this is going... Can we ban kids on my lawn too? And fun?
See, that's what all this is about, banning fun, not reducing the power of unbalanced spells that no one looks at twice because they've become acclimated to the unbalance.
We should outright ban haste. In fact, we should outright ban all spells. Hell, we should ban weapons too, nobody should have nice things in this game. No one."Hear Hear!" -- Every monk in the universe
Nah, they'd still get shown up by Rangers. And Fighters. And Rogues... Ouch.
Well, it it ain't broke... :)
It is broke. It's been driving me nuts since 3.5.
Even a material component cost would do. 100gp per casting, fixed.
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Don't think that I don't. But that doesn't address the issue (that Haste is just to much for a 3rd level spell), it just means I'm spending a fortune (and a feat) crafting wands, even if it is a good investment. And that isn't even an option at levels when you're still relying on 3rd level spell slots anyway.Eh I don't think haste needs a nerf. It's one of the best kinds of spells. Powerful, but not directly for the caster.I think there is a problem when I feel guilty for preparing dispel magic or tiny hut thinking "this could have been another haste", or "that enervation could be an extended haste".
My Wizard shouldn't be having breakdowns like he's f*$&ing Oskar Schindler at the end of the movie... Spoilers...
Make it a wand and hand it off to your familiar or rogue if it's that much of a problem.
There are wizards who don't want craft wand?
There are wizards who don't want craft wand?Don't think that I don't. But that doesn't address the issue (that Haste is just to much for a 3rd level spell), it just means I'm spending a fortune (and a feat) crafting wands, even if it is a good investment. And that isn't even an option at levels when you're still relying on 3rd level spell slots anyway.Eh I don't think haste needs a nerf. It's one of the best kinds of spells. Powerful, but not directly for the caster.I think there is a problem when I feel guilty for preparing dispel magic or tiny hut thinking "this could have been another haste", or "that enervation could be an extended haste".
My Wizard shouldn't be having breakdowns like he's f*$&ing Oskar Schindler at the end of the movie... Spoilers...
Make it a wand and hand it off to your familiar or rogue if it's that much of a problem.
Correct.