So... just ran a group of mythic skeletons against my players mythic monk last night and the relentless extraordinary ability got to be quite a hassle, as it states ANY melee attack provokes an AoO from the skeleton, and I started seeing a possible cascading effect where AoO's back and forth could really slow down combat. Got me thinking, what if it was two Cagm barbarians dueling? One round would take FOREVER!
The AoO's would stop when there were no more AoO's to make that round. I don't know about Mythic stuff, haven't read through all the PDf of it yet, but if you have Combat Reflexes with a dex score of 16, you'd only get 4 AoO's in a round. As to where it would end, I'm not sure since I haven't looked through my content for Mythic abilities granting additional uses and activations for AoO's yet. Hope this helps?
I agree with what Daniel said. While the ability lets them take an AoO against any melee attack, I don't see anything in the wording that says they can take more than their one AoO per round.
So... just ran a group of mythic skeletons against my players mythic monk last night and the relentless extraordinary ability got to be quite a hassle, as it states ANY melee attack provokes an AoO from the skeleton, and I started seeing a possible cascading effect where AoO's back and forth could really slow down combat. Got me thinking, what if it was two Cagm barbarians dueling? One round would take FOREVER!
The skeleton (this one?) could only get a maximum of 3 AOOs, and that's only if it had combat reflexes, which it doesn't. It would only get 1 AOO that round.
I don't know what a Cagm Barbarian is, or what you're referring to, so I can't offer any advice in that area.
Sorry Squirrel, C>Come>A>and>G>get>M>me , its a level 12 rage power out of the apg. Looks like I need to apologize to my player as well, almost killed him three times last night because I botched the AoO limitations!
Don't apologize for almost killing him, just apologize for letting a skeleton be the one to almost kill him, and that you'll do better next time with a challenger that can do the above function WITH combat reflexes. Make him shudder for a bit.
Ah, then same comment: Without combat reflexes the power isn't very useful. Barbarian Rage (barring Urban Barbarians) doesn't boost dexterity, so it won't be exceedingly high. I can see where the problem might come in, though.
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If it's Mythic Combat Reflexes, it's unlimited AoOs. If it's just standard Combat Reflexes, it's equal to your Dex Mod + 1.
If they're both provoking, for provoking, and thus provoking again over and over, I would rule only 1 AoO per Dual AoO instances; for the sake of simplicity. Otherwise, they would use their AoOs until someone died or ran out.... which could potentially be Never. That would be quite a buzzkill :P
I would say whoever provoked first, also finishes up their attack before the opponent can chime in with their AoO.
I hope this helps!
So, a Cagm Barbarian with Mythic Combat Reflexes vs one of those critters who also has Mythic Combat Reflexes...
Infinity AoOs on both sides... do they simply explode?
I mean, how do you ever resolve that? Each AoO would provoke, so... you'd never get to the 'resolve' step, because each AoO is being interrupted by the provocation of yet another AoO... without limit.
Hrm.
You're not obligated to take an AoO even when someone provokes. Either the barbarian or the creature can at any point simply say "okay, that's enough, no more AoOs from me", and then the batch of waiting attacks can be resolved.
Edit: Also, Mythic Combat Reflexes only grants unlimited AoOs against movement. It doesn't grant unlimited AoOs against anything else, which effectively prevents all of those shenanigans.
Sorry Squirrel, C>Come>A>and>G>get>M>me , its a level 12 rage power out of the apg. Looks like I need to apologize to my player as well, almost killed him three times last night because I botched the AoO limitations!I have a standing rule for my groups.
If I botch a rules situation in a way that has serious impact (death or near death or other similar things) then I give them a hero point. It really seems to take the sting out of get screwed over due to my mistakes. :-)
Oh, I may have to steal this rule from you:)
The movement bit allows you to take multiple AoOs against the same movement if you activate it. But it always increases your maximum AoOs per round to "unlimited."
I read it as the first sentence being the explanation, and the second sentence being the game mechanics behind it, but you're probably right.
You're not obligated to take an AoO even when someone provokes. Either the barbarian or the creature can at any point simply say "okay, that's enough, no more AoOs from me", and then the batch of waiting attacks can be resolved.
Whoever doesn't take one gets the short end of the stick, though. If you decide to forfeit your AoO so that the whole thing can be resolved, then the other guy's last AoO is the first to resolve. So... both participants are equally benefitted by 'not stopping' the AoO chain into infinity.
You're not obligated to take an AoO even when someone provokes. Either the barbarian or the creature can at any point simply say "okay, that's enough, no more AoOs from me", and then the batch of waiting attacks can be resolved.Whoever doesn't take one gets the short end of the stick, though. If you decide to forfeit your AoO so that the whole thing can be resolved, then the other guy's last AoO is the first to resolve. So... both participants are equally benefitted by 'not stopping' the AoO chain into infinity.
I disagree. Whoever perceives themselves as being the strongest (in terms of damage-dealing) has a lot more to gain from stopping the chain at a point where they feel they've made enough attacks to drop the other without themselves being dropped.
While whoever perceives themselves as being the weakest (again, in terms of damage-dealing) would want to stop the chain as soon as possible (as otherwise the other, stronger person could stop it once they felt they'd gotten enough attacks in).
You're not obligated to take an AoO even when someone provokes. Either the barbarian or the creature can at any point simply say "okay, that's enough, no more AoOs from me", and then the batch of waiting attacks can be resolved.Whoever doesn't take one gets the short end of the stick, though. If you decide to forfeit your AoO so that the whole thing can be resolved, then the other guy's last AoO is the first to resolve. So... both participants are equally benefitted by 'not stopping' the AoO chain into infinity.I disagree. Whoever perceives themselves as being the strongest (in terms of damage-dealing) has a lot more to gain from stopping the chain at a point where they feel they've made enough attacks to drop the other without themselves being dropped.
While whoever perceives themselves as being the weakest (again, in terms of damage-dealing) would want to stop the chain as soon as possible (as otherwise the other, stronger person could stop it once they felt they'd gotten enough attacks in).
So... basically you just don't like the question? Haha.
So... basically you just don't like the question? Haha.
What do you mean? I don't think both combatants (in most situations) would equally benefit, and answered according to how I feel the situation would logically be resolved.
If one person feels he can survive no more than 3-4 hits, then he should stop the chain before the opponent gets that far.
While on the other hand, if one person feels he can kill the opponent in 4-5 hits, and himself survive considerably more than that, he should stop the chain after reaching those 5 hits.
Do AoO provoke AoO ? They are not defined as an action and only actions provoke AoO (see table 'Actions in Combat').
Do AoO provoke AoO ? They are not defined as an action and only actions provoke AoO (see table 'Actions in Combat').
Yes they can... and no, anything can provoke an AoO if you have a special ability saying it does.
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So, a Cagm Barbarian with Mythic Combat Reflexes vs one of those critters who also has Mythic Combat Reflexes...
Infinity AoOs on both sides... do they simply explode?
I mean, how do you ever resolve that? Each AoO would provoke, so... you'd never get to the 'resolve' step, because each AoO is being interrupted by the provocation of yet another AoO... without limit.
Hrm.
Try combining that with Snake Fang....
No,the monk didnt have relentless but all the AoOs bogged down combat and .Ade it an exceedingly deadly fight.
You ever see an episode of Dragon Ball Z where the two combatants unleash thousands of attacks in the span of a few seconds? That's what happens when two CaGM Barbarians with Mythic Combat Reflexes fight each other.
You ever see an episode of Dragon Ball Z where the two combatants unleash thousands of attacks in the span of a few seconds? That's what happens when two CaGM Barbarians with Mythic Combat Reflexes fight each other.That sounds delightfully epic, and painstakingly time consuming.
Not any more time consuming than normal, really.
The AoO chain just goes back and forth until one of the two goes unconcious or dies. That was probably going to happen anyway.
You ever see an episode of Dragon Ball Z where the two combatants unleash thousands of attacks in the span of a few seconds? That's what happens when two CaGM Barbarians with Mythic Combat Reflexes fight each other.That sounds delightfully epic, and painstakingly time consuming.Not any more time consuming than normal, really.
The AoO chain just goes back and forth until one of the two goes unconcious or dies. That was probably going to happen anyway.
Problem is, if neither combatant chooses to forgo the attack of opportunity, who attacks first?
Problem is, if neither combatant chooses to forgo the attack of opportunity, who attacks first?You ever see an episode of Dragon Ball Z where the two combatants unleash thousands of attacks in the span of a few seconds? That's what happens when two CaGM Barbarians with Mythic Combat Reflexes fight each other.That sounds delightfully epic, and painstakingly time consuming.Not any more time consuming than normal, really.
The AoO chain just goes back and forth until one of the two goes unconcious or dies. That was probably going to happen anyway.
Who attacks third.
Who attacks third.Problem is, if neither combatant chooses to forgo the attack of opportunity, who attacks first?You ever see an episode of Dragon Ball Z where the two combatants unleash thousands of attacks in the span of a few seconds? That's what happens when two CaGM Barbarians with Mythic Combat Reflexes fight each other.That sounds delightfully epic, and painstakingly time consuming.Not any more time consuming than normal, really.
The AoO chain just goes back and forth until one of the two goes unconcious or dies. That was probably going to happen anyway.
Naturally.
I also thought the same action can't provoke AoOs in the same round from the same character (don't know if that is also handled in the Mythic ability since I too am not familiar with that). For instance (without the Mythic ability which specifically calls out movement), if you move out of a character's threatened square, it provokes AoO, but if you continue moving that character (even with Combat Reflexes) can't make another AoO on you based on leaving a threatened square.
The same action does not allow the same opponent to take more than one attack of opportunity, but different instances of the same type of action do. Once the first attack of opportunity is declared, every other provocation in the CaGM Super Saiyan Showdown is by a different attack.
CaGM Super Saiyan Showdown
Considering almost every instance of characters 'powering up' in DBZ involves them getting angry, yelling really loud and then getting stronger, faster and dealing more damage afterward; Barbarians as Super Saiyans is a wildly appropriate description.
God, I'm almost half-tempted to make the next character I play a Barbarian who's hair turns yellow when he rages.
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CaGM Super Saiyan ShowdownConsidering almost every instance of characters 'powering up' in DBZ involves them getting angry, yelling really loud and then getting stronger, faster and dealing more damage afterward; Barbarians as Super Saiyans is a wildly appropriate description.
God, I'm almost half-tempted to make the next character I play a Barbarian who's hair turns yellow when he rages.
You will need to spend at least 12 rounds yelling though.
My sister was a huge fan, and we both remember the "powering up" episodes.
Those were entire episodes, of people "powering up", commentary on them "powering up" by others, and cutscenes to side characters doing things whilst the main characters continued to "powering up".
There could be several of such episodes, in a row.