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What do you guys think of them? I've seen so many beat-clerics that are evangelists, or summoners that are evangelists. Sure it's effective, To me, it just seems like a waste of all of those spontaneous spells. In a party of fighters (ours has three, a paladin, inquisitor and ranger), it feels silly to make yet another melee character. Our other is an evoker wizard, so I figured making an enchantment focused caster cleric would be effective. Trickery domain (deception), spell focus and greater in enchantment, etc. Grab a guided weapon and a level in fighter to get power attack and heavy armor back. That way I can fight, benefit from my own bonuses, control with mind spells, and still support the party and add to attack and damage with my performance. And it'll be a blast to use bluff and perform to sway people to my religion. It gives the party something we lack (control via mind effects), as well as additional melee support. the other idea is just to make a summoner. While there is a neutral and good summons feat, there is no evil summons, leaving the lawful evil (i worship asmodeus) list severely lacking for sacred summons.
But I digress, what do you guys think of enchantment focused evangelist clerics? I think they could be done quite well, and with trickery/deception, it adds confusion into the mix as well.
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I disagree with the sacred summons comment. The lawful evil summons are backloaded, there are 9 monsters to choose from (meaning you would probably want to take the feat later, at level 7 or 9) and it ties with Chaotic Evil for the most summons you can get from sacred summons.
Honestly, I'm wondering if you've overlooked the reach cleric guide. It seems to lay out how you can do exactly what you want to do.
Also I'd advise against multiclassing for heavy armor, you're going to want to tumble out of trouble a lot.
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... I don't want to be a str based cleric. I thought I made that clear. I want to make a mind affecting caster cleric that can backup melee with a guided weapon
My question was more if the community at large thinks this is a waste of time. Enchant focus with trickery domain gives me confusion and there are spells like suggestion and such from evangelist. I just always felt the other aspects of the archetype are being ignored for the bardic performance. And there is do much more to it than that. That and or party had three dedicated melee types,and Ford not need another.
As for the reach cleric guide, I have read it, and it is good. Thanks for pointing it out ,though it is not what I have in mind.
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You don't necessarily have to be strength based to use what's in the guide. Even though strength is pumped in his examples, the build is still a caster first and most melee attacks should be made on the defensive, not offensive. I've never considered the build frontline in the least bit. At least past level 3 or so.
I play an evangelist cleric of Asmodeus as well (with the trickery domain) and I will say that the enchantment spells have not been a waste of time. In fact all of them are infinitely more useful than the inflict spells you get otherwise.
If you want to focus on enchantment spells, maybe consider a 1 Lvl dip into sorcerer for the bloodlines that affect enchantments (fey, infernal, and undead IIRC).
I think any cleric that wants to rely heavily on save based strategies should use either Madness or Chaos.
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I actually Love the Evangelist Cleric. Makes for a good Enchantment specialist. Also the Bardic performance makes it so you don't have to prepare as many Party Buff spells.
As far as The Power attack and fighter levels.....DONT. If your grabbing Enchantment spell focus and casting feats I would just play as a caster. If you need a "attack" option....Spell called Divine Trident is a lighting blade Min/Lvl duration that attacks on TOUCH AC.
I would avoid combat if you have a party of paladin, inquisitor and ranger. Your Bardic performance will buff these guys well. You have plenty of Hitting Power. You need to cover the Casting your group is lacking.
Secondly good luck being around the Paladin with Trickery, madness and Chaos....this will make for interesting RP for both of you.
Paladin uses Detect evil.....Sees the Outsider glowing....and sees you glowing.....Paladin thinks to self: "How many smites do I have left?"
Jokes aside I honestly think a Travel Evangelist Cleric is top tier. You get 40 feet of Movement + Longstrider as you domain spell for Another +10 feet....50 Feet of movement that you can ignore difficult terrain at Level 1.....Your moving as fast as mounts at level 1. Later levels you add Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport, Find the Path. All amazing spells to add to your list. All these make your Light armor proficiency enough. You can still use spells like Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, ext if you need a higher AC.
I like Toppling spell metamagic....Spiritual weapon/ally, Chains of Perdition, Forceful Blow, BLADE BARRIER are great toppling targets. Toppling Blade Barrier + a Bull rush Mechanic/Fighter is a legit winning strategy. Watch them get bull rushed into it, Chopped to pieces, Tripped, Damaged Trying to move in the blade barrier, Tripped again...and the cycle repeats itself. Hilarity.
Lastly Check out Dawnflower Dervish Bard and War Priest if you wanting to mix it up melee but be a party buffer/caster.
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Well, the fighter level wont hurt that badly. It will give me some melee oomph, as well as solidify my defenses. In this particular campaign, being stuck in light armor with low physical stats without the protections of a wizard is a good way to die. A LOT of casualties happen during surprise rounds in this campaign. This campaign is going above level 20. It's one of the Paizo big three (Savage tide, shackled city, and age of worms), so it'll be made up easily enough. I'm honestly extremely worried about giving up Heavy armor and such, It will make me extremely vulnerable.
As for the Detect evil... that's what a ring of mind shielding is for. >..> I'm neutral, I promise! 0:)
As for 'needing' madness or chaos, I disagree. In order to utilize chaos yourself, you have to hit them with quickened spells as the negative re-roll only lasts one round. Madness is amazing, the domain spells, the 8th level power, AND the 1st level powers are simply great. SO i'll have to decide what i do with that. A conductive weapon plus touch of madness could be very effective.
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Going to be honest....AC is the worst damage Mitigation in the game.
If you need melee oomph with 3 other melee (combat) damage in the group then take fighter...just know it lowers your effective spell level...I still recommend APT War priest over a fighter dip if you serious leaning into wading into combat.
Ring of mind shielding is ok....but that is a ring slot taken up on a level 20+ character....Seems weak sauce to me.
Also I didn't say anything about needing Chaos or Madness...I'm full aware of their effects as I typically Play clerics above all other classes. I rank madness over Chaos...but I rank Melee Style Clerics lower then Full caster clerics when you reach level 13+ and here are my reasons:
1: You still need to prep buffs to hit...Sorry to say but 1 level of fighter and your Cleric BaB is not enough to hit heavily armored or concealed targets (Blur,Mirror Image,darkness,displacement,cover), or straight Mitigation Stone Skin, resist energy
2: the damage output will never be anything near a fighter,paladin, or other melee focused classes....Your numbers can reach up to their numbers but when you think of how many rounds you have to buff, how many spells wasted, and the amount of money you drop on gear to be as good as them you find yourself with a lot of wasted time when you could have rolled up a melee focused character.
3: mentioned it above....Action economy....With the build you suggested and the problems you mentioned you don't have the time to waste
You say your being surprised every combat (rangers and Inquis fault for not scouting or rolling a perception check) But you can't point figers cause you didn't say hey go scout. If your focusing on a Build that involves you having to debuff them or buff yourself your already behind 2-3 rounds when combat begins. A caster evangelist cleric would begin a performance, and cast a Terrible remorse, Hold X, (insert Enchantment spell) and turn the tides round 1 of action. Your doing it over a longer amount of time leaving room for enemies to destroy you or your allies.
Lastly if your still scared of Light armor then hide in the back row....if they make it through your Paladin, Fighter, and Inquisitor then the DM must just have it out for you and no Amount of AC will help you.
I like Fruian's advice. Don't need to worry too much about AC if you've got three perfectly good meat shields to hide behind.
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I would normally Agree with you completely, trust me on this, but we played through this campaign once before, and wiped halfway through. I suppose If I'm extremely careful I could survive until late game. Asmodean cleric pure evangelist, run a caster/buffer, and avoid melee. though with a guided weapon I CAN pitch in melee if I have to. But you're probably right, since we have so many fighters I don't really need to pitch in melee wise that much. Madness domain makes me WANT to run into melee and touch people, which brings my garbage AC into play. So either a crazy street preacher with the madness domain, or a slick Asmodean priest.
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Again if you don't want to pay for a guided conductive weapon (+3 weapon) use the spell Divine Trident a.k.a Gozreh's Trident. It is a electiric Blade that attacks on TOUCH AC. Your cleric BaB + Performance should be more then high enough to hit touch ACs unless they are a bad-ass monk in which case you just hit him with a Plane Shift to another plane and not worry about him anymore.
Also I would be concerned about Guided weapons as it is 3.5 material and some DMs do not allow it. If he allows it cool, but also remember a guided+conductive weapon is a +3 weapon which costs 18,300+ gold pieces.....that is a costly investment for a once in a while use weapon.
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Yes, i know about The trident. THe problem is a LARGE portion of our enemies in this campaign from CR 9 forward are demons. Which are immune to electricity. And guided is allowed in our games. now i just have to decide on madness or trickery (deception). Madness has significantly better domain powers, and Trickery has significantly better spells, and the domain powers arent horrible, just not nearly as good. The big problem is the big 'money' power for madness, touch of madness, encourages me to venture into Melee often, which is probably not a great idea. And trickery fits the character concept more. PReferred spell confusion should be fun too.
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Furian, since you're being awesome and helpful, I figured I'd post the two possible builds I have bouncing around in my head. the first one focuses entirely on enchantment effects. The second one tries to be decent at enchantments while covering summoning as well. I think it does a decent job. Which do you think would be better? does the second one even work?
Deity: Asmodeus
Domain: Trickery (Deception)
Trait: Magical Lineage: Confusion
1- Lingering Performance Retrain to Heighten Spell at Level 5
B Improved Initiative
3- Spell Focus: Enchantment5- Scribe Scroll
7- Preferred Spell: Confusion
9- Persistant Spell
11- Spell Penetration
13- Quicken Spell
15- Spell Perfection: Confusion
17- Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
19- Greater Spell Penetration
Trait: Magial Lineage: Suggestion
1- Lingering Performance retrain to Scribe Scroll at level 5
B Improved Initiative
3- Spell Focus: Conjuration
5- Augment Summoning
7- Sacred Summons
9- Persistant Spell
11- Spell Penetration
13- Quicken Spell
15- Bouncing Spell
17- Spell Perfection: Suggestion
19- Superior Summons
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It sounds like the OP wants to build an Evangelist Cleric of Asmodeus, specialized in Enchanting, who also has basic martial competence. This sounds like a fun, if diabolically cruel, character. There are several fine ways to implement this approach.
I, too, encourage the OP to read and consider the reach cleric class guide. Any Cleric can be a 'reach cleric' simply by picking up a longspear and using reach tactics. The point of the reach cleric is to do both melee combat and spell casting at the same time. It need not be a STR based build, that's just how most of the examples were done. The reach cleric approach seems perfectly suited to what the OP said he wanted in the first post. The OP clearly said he does not want to be primarily a beatstick melee beast, he wants to primarily be an offensive caster specializing in Enchantment. Also, that guide contains a tip on how an evangelist cleric can wear medium armor without any penalty. That free extra +2 AC alone makes it worth the read.
To be great at melee combat one must spend a lot of build resources on combat. To be merely competent at melee combat is cheap and easy! The cheaper is your basic martial competence the more build resources remain to spend on something else. E.g. Being a skilled Enchanter. Here's one low-cost way to give your cleric basic martial competence that will remain useful for the PC's entire career.
Start with just a 14 STR (5 points), no feats or traits, and carry a normal longspear as your primary weapon. At 5th level you will have one attack at +5 for 1d8+3. Pretty bad. But, if you know a fight is coming, cast a few self-buff spells, and start Inspire Courage before joining the fight, you will attack at +11 for 1d8+10. With a little optimization (trait Fate's Favored, feat Power Attack, and spell Enlarge Person) that becomes +11 for 2d6+15, which is quite respectable considering the minimal resources you invested.
With a bit of smart tactical movement you can often get that attack while still casting a spell each round. When using reach tactics one wants to stay at least 15 feet from the foe, which has the side effect of denying foes a full attack and thereby minimizing damage you take. Many foes will choose to stay back rather than give you a free AoO. If they do, that's a win for you. Most reach weapons were, historically speaking, considered defensive weaponry, because they have a subtle stay away tactical effect.
Anyway, please consider this approach as one way to get cheap basic martial competence for your cleric. This approach costs about 25% of your build, leaving about 75% free for other purposes. Also note that you don't have to dip any other classes, and can remain a full caster. This approach works 'on the side', without interfering with your primary shtick.
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Good points and well said Magda. It appears that Combat Reflexes, power attack, and at least a 14 dex would seem to be needed. in order to do this. I'll post a build attempting to harness this ability. It still feels like one level of fighter would make a build like this much more possible, the extra feat, the proficiencies, and the armor would be nice. I'll post both versions of the build today if you'd like to give your feedback Magda.
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The iterative attacks from Combat Reflexes and DEX 14 are nice when they happen, but they don't happen that often. So the 14 DEX and Combat Reflexes are optional. I guess Combat Reflexes increases overall damage output for this melee approach by 15%-30%, depending on how aggressive (and risky!) are your tactics.
The full reach cleric build spends at least 50% of your build resources on melee: STR 14+, DEX 14, and at least three combat feats. With half that investment (just STR 14 & Power Attack, 25% of build) you will have the same melee attack and damage numbers, but your total damage output will be about 80% as much, as you will occasionally miss out on flat-footed and iterative AoOs. You decide how far up that 'diminishing returns' ladder you want to go.
Perhaps consider whether you primary concept requires 50% or 75% of your build resources?
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Hmmm I like numbers. and If i stick 'guided' on my reach weapon, i get a much higher attack and damage output for a money investment. and all it requires is power attack, which i will still get 3 for 1 when two-handing. that will negate the need for a high strength later on. further reducing my build investment in melee. sound like a decent idea? I'll toss up a build soon.
Just wish there was a simple reach bludgeoning weapon, so i could use this really sweet long-handled mace priest model I have. since Asmodeus's favored weapon is the heavy mace.
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Sounds like a good idea, except for the dip in Fighter. At low levels the extra feat, damage, and AC will help, but by middle levels it will be outweighed by gimped spellcasting. Dipping an entire level in Fighter is a pretty heavy investment in melee combat for a caster cleric.
I've had this discussion before on these boards, and will instantly acknowledge that for certain builds the benefits of the Fighter dip are worth it. E.g. Some Dwarf builds get terrific synchronicity from the Fighter dip. Usually, though, it's something you will later regret.
Carry a heavy mace as a secondary weapon. It will come out when facing skeletons, if you are disarmed, or if you must fight in a tight space. Perhaps even carry a light shield on your back, should you decide that a defensive posture is in order.
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alright, here is the build, the 12 int could be changed to a 14 str and i could put only one point in perform, since from what i can tell you only need perform ranks for counter-song. a change could be to ditch Heighten and preferred spell, and put in either bouncing spell or reach spell, put back in spell focus or scribe scroll, and change my magical lineage to suggestion.
Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 17+2 (all)
Cha 10
Trait: Magial Lineage: Confusion
Domain: Trickery (Deception) *which gives confusion*
1- Lingering Performance retrain to Heighten Spell at Level 5
B Improved Initiative
3- Power Attack
5- Scribe Scroll or Spell Focus: Enchantment
7- Preferred Spell: Confusion
9- Persistant Spell
11- Spell Penetration
13- Quicken Spell
15- Spell Perfection: Confusion
17- Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
19- Greater Spell Penetration
The other idea is to take a level in fighter in there somewhere.
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Looks like a kick-@$$ caster cleric who will provide terrific buffs, defend the party's core, deal some damage, and keep allies on their feet. The only fat I see to cut is possibly Improved Initiative. Given your awesome buffs and strong offensive casting, Improved Initiative is probably worth keeping.
Here's a write-up of what Magda, a more beatstick-oriented reach-style evangelist, did in combat at low levels. Notice how the Standard Action is reserved for non-martial actions.
P.s. I suggest Divine Interference as your 11th level feat. Also, consider replacing Heighten Spell with some other metamagic feat, unless you have a purpose I don't comprehend.
P.P.s. You will need to devise a method to allow your allies to ignore confused foes. Consider, too, how well Persistent Murderous Command combines with Confusion, when cast on the guy who made his save against Confusion :-)
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@Magda: Thank you SO MUCH for your help, this is so valuable, you have no idea.
Do you think I should take scribe scroll or Spell focus (or drop divine interference, depending on what we think would be better for the party, scribe scroll for utility, or divine interference), and how about the strength being at 13 or 14? since i plan to use guided weapons past a certain level, does the investment of 13 to 14 strength sound worth it past making the early levels easier? Well, in order to get preferred spell, i must take heighten spell, it's a pre-req sadly. Having trickery domain, i plan on memorizing Confusion a LOT in my domain slots. I could drop preferred and heighten, for Bouncing spell and divine interference at 11th level. If i did that, I'd change my lineage to suggestion, since i can spontaneously cast it as a 4th level spell, which with magical lineage would still be a very viable option for specialization. The build would look like this...
Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 17+2 (all)
Cha 10
Trait: Magial Lineage: Suggestion
Domain: Trickery (Deception) *which gives confusion*
1- Lingering Performance retrain to Bouncing Spell at Level 5
B Improved Initiative
3- Power Attack
5- Scribe Scroll or Spell Focus: Enchantment
7- Spell Penetration
9- Persistant Spell
11- Divine Interference
13- Quicken Spell
15- Spell Perfection: Confusion
17- Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
The thing is, even not spontaneous casting confusion, i can still memorize it a LOT, probably more than i'll be able to utilize in a day at higher levels (considering targeting restrictions). trickery has some good spells, but it would look like this..
Domain spells memorized:
4th - Confusion
5th - Confusion (cast in a higher slot)
6th - Mislead
7th - Persistent Confusion (Cast in a higher slot)
8th - Quickened Confusion
I think any cleric that wants to rely heavily on save based strategies should use either Madness or Chaos.
Heh - Madness Domain and Planeshift as your Perfected Spell. It's the ultimate save or suck.
Visions of Madness has got to be the best buff/debuff in the game.
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Just have to decide for the above build which two of the following three I want as feats: Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Divine Interference.
@Wiggz and Fruian: Sounds awesome, the problem is since this is savage tides (hence demons galore), almost everything we fight at that level has plane shift and greater teleport at will. taking them approximately two rounds to return to the battle after being plane shifted.
Just have to decide for the above build which two of the following three I want as feats: Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Divine Interference.
@Wiggz and Fruian: Sounds awesome, the problem is since this is savage tides (hence demons galore), almost everything we fight at that level has plane shift and greater teleport at will. taking them approximately two rounds to return to the battle after being plane shifted.
FWIW, Greater Teleport won't do anything for you when you're sent to another plane of existence, and to my knowledge no Demon from Dretch to Balor has Planeshift at will - I can't even think of any off the top of my head who have it as a spell-like ability at all.
Ahhhh it's true seeing and greater teleport i was thinking of. I stand correct. So yes, still a good tactic. Nice thing is it's something that can be done without focusing in it.
Down side is that its a Conjuration-based spell and that's something you were looking to get away from - still worth mentioning, though.
