Sorry if this is already a topic, I searched and could not find what I was looking for.
Has anyone made rules for jiu jitsu? I mean you can grapple but what about joint locks, arm bars etc? Or chokes? How could you determine if a PC successfully lands a submission or a joint lock? Would this be a skill check or a roll against an ability?
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You'd probably have to roleplay off of the pinned condition. I don't think there's anything that specifically caters towards this, which is a shame really.
Well, there's the chokehold feat.
I can house rule it but given the nature of Jiu Jitsu im not sure what would better suite a check. Jiu Jitsu by design is meant to use your challengers strength against him. My time training in the sport I have come across people who relied exclusively on strength and others including myself rely on dex or being flexible.
Another road block is how would you determine position (advantage/disadvantage) by its nature, just because youre on the bottom doesn't mean youre in danger. You can threaten the enemy from your back with him on top.
Just would make a really cool Monk build that was trained in Jiu Jitsu or wrestling.
I agree a suplex would be awesome to pull off, or a flying elbow from a bar stool lol.
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Tetori Monk, flavored with Jiu Jitsu. That's as good as it gets unless you do some homebrew stuff with Gunslinger Targeting as an inspiration to the variation you want to see with Grappling.
Let me know what you come up with, as I would like to see a change to make grappling more intense and defined.
Will do, I have some abstract concepts in my head but I plan to write them out. I guess I will make a list of different positions and moves and try to relate it to strength or dex or some skill. Maybe you could play test them and we can try to iron it out from there.
Im just trying to figure out how to implement the guard positions (enemy on top of the PC) I like the idea of fighting off your back.
Example; Orc trips and grapples PC. Orc is on top of PC. Athletics check? or Dex check, to see if the PC successfully pulls orc into his/her guard. Athletics or dex check to set up a triangle? Should the orc make a save vs this check to successfully block the attempt? I guess the CMB could be used over the checks? I figure after 1 full round the orc would be choked out (not dead). In the real world it doesn't take long to cut off the blood flow to the brain if the choke is in deep and correct. Or should it be 2 rounds? Should a save be made by the orc to try and fight through the choke and possibly reverse it? Some chokes and arm locks will compromise your position so I try to keep this in mind.
I apologize if these have been touched on I only own the core rule book. The Tetori Monk looks like a good starting point, thanks for bringing that up.
Sorry if this is already a topic, I searched and could not find what I was looking for.
Has anyone made rules for jiu jitsu? I mean you can grapple but what about joint locks, arm bars etc? Or chokes? How could you determine if a PC successfully lands a submission or a joint lock? Would this be a skill check or a roll against an ability?
The combat system is a abstraction the grabble and unarmed combat rules are what you have to work with. Then you just make sure that you are doing jiu jitsu when you do it. Just like someone may keep saying that his figther is doing kenjutsu and a brutal pugilist or a tetori be doing sumo. In some way it is fortunate for a lot of the jiu jitsu moved wouldent be too great on giant spider demons and dragons.
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The grappling rules are intentionally vague to allow all sorts of positioning to be summarized with a successful grapple check. Many kinds of holds could be represented by a successful pin, and damaging during a grapple could be flavoured as pushing one of many locks to the point of actual damage rather than just pain.
Generally PF tends to group similar techniques together under the same rule set because it's cumbersome to represent all the advantages and disadvantages of related techniques (such as those performed when on top of your opponent vs on the bottom, air chokes vs blood chokes, etc). You don't get a penalty for trying to perform a hip throw on someone shorter than you, you just make a trip attempt to perform the most appropriate throw under the circumstance.
I can house rule it but given the nature of Jiu Jitsu im not sure what would better suite a check. Jiu Jitsu by design is meant to use your challengers strength against him. My time training in the sport I have come across people who relied exclusively on strength and others including myself rely on dex or being flexible.
Agile Maneuvers allows Dex-based grappling.
Another road block is how would you determine position (advantage/disadvantage) by its nature, just because youre on the bottom doesn't mean youre in danger. You can threaten the enemy from your back with him on top.
And this is why position is solely represented by advantage/disadvantage in the grapple system. If you make a grapple check, you have the advantage, whether that means you're on top or you're on the bottom and applying a technique such as a lock that gives you control over your opponent.
Example; Orc trips and grapples PC. Orc is on top of PC. Athletics check? or Dex check, to see if the PC successfully pulls orc into his/her guard.
Grapple check to take control of the grapple the orc started.
Athletics or dex check to set up a triangle? Should the orc make a save vs this check to successfully block the attempt? I guess the CMB could be used over the checks?
Grapple check. The orc's "save" is represented by his CMD.
]I figure after 1 full round the orc would be choked out (not dead). In the real world it doesn't take long to cut off the blood flow to the brain if the choke is in deep and correct. Or should it be 2 rounds? Should a save be made by the orc to try and fight through the choke and possibly reverse it? Some chokes and arm locks will compromise your position so I try to keep this in mind.
Grapple check to damage.
Or, use Chokehold. The feat clearly an air choke since it starts at the top of suffocation rules, but since it's a bit underpowered to take 20 rounds (2 minutes) of maintaining a grapple to choke out a fighter of average Con I would suggest house-ruling it to start at the constitution check part of the suffocation rules. Every round the choked character succeeds at the Con check they get another grapple/Escape Artist check to escape the grapple (breaking the choke).
The -5 penalty to grapple checks while using chokehold represents compromising your position if necessary to get a choke.
When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
For locks there's also Jawbreaker, Bonebreaker, and Neckbreaker, which talk about striking but could easily also cover joint locks followed through to actual damage (Bonebreaker in particular).
If you want it easier for grapplers to use these tricks without taking a bunch of feats, you may rule that characters without the feats can try the same tricks but at reduced effect and/or at a penalty. For example, a character not trained in applying Chokeholds can use the feat but can only apply air chokes and take a -4 penalty on grappling for the duration (on top of the penalty applied by the feat) because they're not as good at preserving their position while choking.