You're misunderstanding him. He's saying stuff doesn't exist in his campaign until he puts it there. Choosing a published item (besides the simplest most generic +X things and spells-in-a-can) is pointless because odds are pretty good it may not exist.
It's... a playstyle that takes some getting used to.
Its a very easy playstyle to get used to...just don't make any assumptions prior to game time.
This honestly was not even a blip on my radar until recently while sorting through players for a new VTT game, I had a player give me a full 20 level wish list of items he expected.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
just don't make any assumptions prior to game time.
If I was asked to give one single piece of advice to the roleplaying world, it would be this. So many of the problems that people bring to the boards seem to stem from the fact their expectations were not in line with what the game delivered.
If something (no matter how "normal" it may feel to you to have in the game) is vitally important to you in order for you to have fun, make sure you've discussed it with the group before the game begins in order to avoid possible disappointment later.
R.E. Anarchy_Kanya
So what interaction do you have with a perspective GM/DM, or is it all blind alley PF gaming vegas style for you.
Myself I ask a lot of questions to a perspective GM/DM before I even start to make a character concept, and never make any assumptions before that.
This honestly was not even a blip on my radar until recently while sorting through players for a new VTT game, I had a player give me a full 20 level wish list of items he expected.
That seems rather ambitious of him. On the other hand I really have no problem with players talking shop with their GMs in general. I discuss magic items with mine, though it tends to be more along the lines of cool magic swords than boring as hell stuff like an amulet of greater plus.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any house-ruled version is just as much Pathfinder as the game in the book.No, it's houseruled Pathfinder, which might or might not be very different from Pathfinder, that's why it's an important distinction.
That's why the book itself says it's your game, to do with what you will.While assuming you're using the rules in the books, because why else would you bother buying it? Just to ignore it all?
It depends on what people are used to.
If you're joining an established group that has been playing RPGs for decades playing fast and free with the rulebook and with the GM making rules for many things up on the spot as they go, they may not even consider that something unusual enough to be worth mentioning. If they're particularly isolated there's a good chance they assume everyone plays that way.
I find it's best if both sides do their bit to get pre-game communication going, rather than relying on the other to do it. Considering how long it takes to ask "So, do you play strictly 100% by the rulebook?" compared to the trouble it could cause later, it seems to me a good idea to fire that question at the GM right away.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
90%+ of this hobby is communication, player to GM, GM to player, people ask questions pertaining to what is important to them, and anytime a gap in this vital chain is broken, then stuff fails.
So don't make assumptions, and do ask questions, do so until certain of the answers, and omission is not permission..it will save a lot of heartache.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're joining an established group that has been playing RPGs for decades playing fast and free with the rulebook and with the GM making rules for many things up on the spot as they go, they may not even consider that something unusual enough to be worth mentioning. If they're particularly isolated there's a good chance they assume everyone plays that way.
This ^^
Though the problem is, you often don't even realize that it is something that should be discussed - because the element you are used to is just there like the air in the atmosphere or the water in the aquarium. Everyone gets something different out of these games, and some of the essential elements for one person's game can seem like the weirdest bit of minutia to the next.
If I were a player, I would probably think I was being polite by mentioning my desire to acquire such an enhanced weapon for my character, so the GM could decide if he wanted to work it into the adventure or make it a plot point. I would feel like I was imposing if I first wanted the GM to homebrew a feat for it; I'm just used to GMs who are concerned about making that large of a change (especially now that they can point to a *mythic* feat for this); so please everyone remember that the assumptions and baselines go both ways. There are other GMs on these boards who want some level of wishlists so that the PCs can get some desired items from loot and the GM is freed from the "magic mart" that they feel like they would be doing otherwise.
Not playing Golarion. You can play other than Golarion and still be playing pathfinder.
That tends to be one of the biggest things people fall over on. They go in assuming all the Golarion-specific stuff applies, down to availability of races, classes, and equipment.
Even back with D&D's multiple settings, the setting books tended to include setting-specific overrides to races and classes.
I seem to specifically recall Forgotten Realms making various changes to elves from the D&D standard, while Dragonlance had entire races that simply didn't exist - there was even a bit of controversy when an author put a half-orc into a Dragonlance novel without realizing Krynn didn't have Orcs.
I had a player give me a full 20 level wish list of items he expected.
Well that's certainly presumptuous. For me I'd ask up front if they have any restrictions I should know about on crafting feats, or if they're OK with the standard rules. If they are, then I now have some measure of control over what I know I can expect for the rest of the game. I may be surprised with finding good things I didn't expect, but at a bare minimum I know I can at some point craft the core set of things I need most, assuming we end up getting anywhere close to wealth by level guidelines.
There are certain items that I really want for my new witch. Among the first on the list are Cackling Hag's Blouse and Broom of Flying. But I know there's virtually no chance I'm just going to find them lying around in a dungeon, and unless we take a travel break probably not in the local shops either. But having checked with the DM that they don't have any special guidelines on crafting, and having picked up the feat to craft them, I now don't expect anything to stop me from getting the things I want most.
Though the problem is, you often don't even realize that it is something that should be discussed - because the element you are used to is just there like the air in the atmosphere or the water in the aquarium. Everyone gets something different out of these games, and some of the essential elements for one person's game can seem like the weirdest bit of minutia to the next.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I ask players to run their character concept by me before spending any time on the character sheet. Just a simple line or two to jog me into thinking whether that specific thing works or not. "Human Cleric of [Appropriate Deity], female, age 24, has issues with family over choice of religion" kinda thing.
From that point we can work together on fleshing them out, I'll make suggestions for geographical locations (birthplace, location of family, etc.), for example, that might work well in the upcoming campaign, and point out any possible problems such as people from that particular country being extremely unwelcome right now due to the war with them last year - although obviously if that's what the player really wants, they can have it, I just wouldn't want them going in without warning of certain things their character would be aware of.
The whole item pre-planning thing (or planning anything in the character's future, really) feels completely alien to me, although I'm certainly okay with things like "I envisage him always using a broadsword, so I'd appreciate finding an upgraded magic broadsword from time to time." The actual abilities of that magic weapon I really want to keep a handle on for game balance, though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's still sad to see so many people who seem to believe "gimme what I want or you're doing it wrong."
Being in a published Paizo Pathfinder product does not guarantee an appearance in any campaign.
Pathfinder, house-ruled or not, is Pathfinder. Any particular person not liking the house rules does not cause it to become Not-Pathfinder.
People use the Pathfinder rule set because it is mutable. One day I can play with a pack of fighters in a low magic world. The next day I can play with a pack of full casters in superultramagic funworld.
No matter what you (general you, not specific you) think, there is no wrong way to play Pathfinder.
If you don't like the way a group plays, it is better for all involved for the person with the problem to excuse themselves from the group. This rule also applies to the GM.
I generally like magic items but in a lot of Pathfinder specific items become mandatory rather than a bonus.
Why do you have to use anything for something you aren't going to have when you start play anyway?
I have often wondered the same thing.
Personally I want the quote from page and book that says without reservation that a player can expect magic item xyz by level abc.
or any magic items at all.
You know this is the only site I ever been to where when I ask for a PAGE and BOOK citation I get a link to the PRD.
It makes one wonder if the person making the citation has ever bothered to actually read the hardcopy from cover to cover...
Or at all.
past level 5ish. the Players are generally assumed to have bonuses from the big 10 Factored into their bonuses with weapons specifically tailored for their build, even if not the best bonus per se.
generally because monsters will have such high stats you need that gear to survive
the Big 10
1. Magic Weapon or Arcane Attack Form, level appropriate and functional, with a magical backup or few of different categories, this can be a weapon or something like a spell in a can
2. Magical Armor Bonuses, this can be something like better versions of mage armor, or outright magical armor, but Monster Attack Bonuses assume PCs will have this defensive bonus
3. Natural Armor Enhancement, monster attacks assume PCs have this
4. Deflection Protection, also an assumed defense when monstrous attack bonuses are calculated
5. resistance Bonuses, essentially, Save DCs assume PCs will have a certain bonus to their saves, and like other assumptions, they are generally done through magic
6. Primary Offensive Attribute Booster, PCs are assumed to have a certain Offensive Stat for the purpose of Combat challenges, whether Save DCs for spellcasters or melee damage for martials. this usually requires items or lotsa templates without houserules
7. Primary Defensive Attribute Boosters, Typically Dexterity and Constitution for everyone, and well, Wisdom for a lot of others too if afforded or charisma for paladins. you need so many hit points and a certain level of fortitude and will save to survive a challenge feasibly
8. a cheap spammable means to heal outside of combat in between fights, typically a healing wand or something. lots of them.
9. a means to both combat flying foes and counter invisible foes. these become common at levels 5 and after.
10. insurance should your PC be permanently crippled, such as scrolls for removing conditions or the actual material components to utilize those spells. you can't expect the cleric to provide the diamonds you require all the time, you can at least provide your own gems. in some cases, you may desire raising diamonds.
it doesn't specify which bonuses are a requirement, but the general assumption is the required bonuses are equal to about a third of your level and so on. usually rounded down.
past level 5ish. the Players are generally assumed to have bonuses from the big 10 Factored into their bonuses with weapons specifically tailored for their build, even if not the best bonus per se.
generally because monsters will have such high stats you need that gear to survive
That has yet to be proven.
It ASSUMED that the books assume such.Combat is NOT the only means of overcoming an encounter (it is just the default of most players).
It's because nobody memorizes page locations in a beastly tome like the CRB when the PRD is right there for the searching.
Alternatively, in regards to more obscure but smaller books, the player may not own the material at all, but is using the PRD for it.
The problem is... I can produce the proper cites for not just Pathfinder, but GURPS, Palladium (200+ products there), D&D 2e, 3.5, WoD, FATE, Savage Worlds, Cortex, WEG D6, BRP, and WHFRPG.
SRDs are notorious for failing failing to provide context for the quoted material.One of the main reasons I ban their use at my table.
past level 5ish. the Players are generally assumed to have bonuses from the big 10 Factored into their bonuses with weapons specifically tailored for their build, even if not the best bonus per se.
generally because monsters will have such high stats you need that gear to survive
That has yet to be proven.
It ASSUMED that the books assume such.
Combat is NOT the only means of overcoming an encounter (it is just the default of most players).
the reason it is assumed that the books assume such is that at level 5 and after, there are a lot of monstrous opponents a party of adventurers just cannot defeat with a series of magic items, at least not with the consume 20% of party resources guideline.
and a lot of the ones from that range or even before, are bound to slaughter a party whom lacks magical equipment
i mean, magic items make up anywhere from +1 to +20 of your total armor class. there are simply encounters you won't be able to survive past level 5 if you don't have the gear
even though combat isn't the only means to stop things, the system devotes a disproportionately large amount of it's rules to combat and well, it started as a wargame called chainmail in the 1960s. i don't see how a game with wargame roots can really not encourage combat as its primary solution, especially when like 90 percent of the published rules have a connection to minature figurine based wargame style combat.
if you look at the wealth by level chart. that alone is proof that PCs are to have so much wealth in adventuring magical gear to fight encounters with.
if PCs weren't assumed to have magic items, or to be able to craft, commission or purchase the items their build required we wouldn't have a wealth by level chart and magic items wouldn't have price tags attached.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
past level 5ish. the Players are generally assumed to have bonuses from the big 10 Factored into their bonuses with weapons specifically tailored for their build, even if not the best bonus per se.
generally because monsters will have such high stats you need that gear to survive
That has yet to be proven.
It ASSUMED that the books assume such.
Combat is NOT the only means of overcoming an encounter (it is just the default of most players).the reason it is assumed that the books assume such is that at level 5 and after, there are a lot of monstrous opponents a party of adventurers just cannot defeat with a series of magic items, at least not with the consume 20% of party resources guideline.
and a lot of the ones from that range or even before, are bound to slaughter a party whom lacks magical equipment
i mean, magic items make up anywhere from +1 to +20 of your total armor class. there are simply encounters you won't be able to survive past level 5 if you don't have the gear
even though combat isn't the only means to stop things, the system devotes a disproportionately large amount of it's rules to combat and well, it started as a wargame called chainmail in the 1960s. i don't see how a game with wargame roots can really not encourage combat as its primary solution, especially when like 90 percent of the published rules have a connection to minature figurine based wargame style combat.
if you look at the wealth by level chart. that alone is proof that PCs are to have so much wealth in adventuring magical gear to fight encounters with.
if PCs weren't assumed to have magic items, or to be able to craft, commission or purchase the items their build required we wouldn't have a wealth by level chart and magic items wouldn't have price tags attached.
WBL was the absolute worst thing ever introduced into RPGs.
It is a guide not an expectation or a forgone conclusion.And oddly enough I have characters with no magic that have managed to survive past level 10 without issue.
It is a matter of perspective.
As well as false assumptions.
Magic items are not a forgone conclusion.
The "Big 6" or "Big 10" are not requirements for survival.
They help... but they are not required.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Rolling Stones said it best:
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes
Well you might find
You get what you need
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Since what is encountered is entirely up to the gm, even - at least so far - according to the strongest player empowerment group on the boards?
I'm not all that sure about Anzyr. It's possible his group has reduced the GM down to rolling dice for whatever encounters the players define for him.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Y'know, maybe I'm selfish but I DO expect my GM to "gimmie what I want." I also intend on delivering that to my players. Its just that what I want and (so far) what my players want is esoteric. My GM's have asked me and I've asked my players what to expect from the game. The answers are "Epicness; fun; cool fights and conflicts; engaging plots and worlds."
So yeah; gimmie what I want.
I don't know, maybe I've been exceptionally blessed. My players have wanted small, individual magic items over the years but no one's ever handed me a shopping list. I've also had A LOT of powergamer/optimizer types who are more focused on character power than plot. I've never had a one present me with a 20 level build. Maybe they have it statted out somewhere privately but they've never shown me.
Speaking for myself as a player I don't look at my character as a series of numbers to be massaged. I wonder what he'd look like; how cool would it be to see this guy in a full attack; why does he remain on the road of adventure? Because of this I don't hit the table with any expectation of material reward other than "if I succeed at achieving goals and defeating challenges, I'll level."
If others play with shopping lists, that's fine for them. That WORKS for them. I would further expect that there are GMs out there who welcome the communication with these players and synergize well with the playstyle. I wholeheartedly encourage these players and GMs to find one another.
It just probably won't be at my table.
I don't run low magic by any stretch of the imagination. I DO use magic ripped vanilla right out of the PF books. But it's not floating in the air after defeating your first skeleton like a video game either, and there should be no expectation of that in my games. Like I said; maybe I've been blessed. My players seem to be fine with the items they get or can seek out/purchase/make themselves.
And one final note on the "ye olde magik shoppe": this need not be magic Wal-Mart. I don't run it that way and I haven't played alongside anyone who has. If you DO run it that way and it works for you great, but that's not the only way it has to work.
Firstly I limit the number of those "major cities with all the cheap magic items" in them. Second I tell my players flat out that there are no Magic Item Shops, but rather there are individual sources for individual items. Like, if a player wants a wand of Cure Light Wounds, likely they'll need a major church; weird thing is there isn't a church big enough in the region. If they ask some questions they find that there's an old witch that handles local healing. She needs 750 GP, but not the actual gold. Instead she needs 750 GP worth of rare herbs, unique woods and exotic game delivered to her before she'll part with one of her wands.
Finally there is discovery. Since in my games there's no Magic Item Shop the players have to use some skills and roleplaying to find what they're looking for. If they're in a small city and they want a magic sword, that's fairly simple, but the fact that its magic means its not just sitting in a rack somewhere. So they need to use a Diplomacy roll, some Influence capital, or some good old fashioned roleplaying to chat up the locals. From this they might learn that:
1. Brok Battlehammer, the best dwarven forge in the city, has crafted magic blades in the past and may have one for sale
2. Old Yuric's father fought in the war and brought home such a magic weapon that might suit your needs, but he might not part with it. Then again, he's hit upon hard times lately...
3. There is a Dunevain traveler family in town for the market day. They are known as the Buhlevek Caravan and they have been known to deal in such rarities. However they are shrewd and not to be trusted. They are wandering folk after all.
So any of these will provide the magic sword the player wants but Brok might have to make modifications so the PC has to wait; Old Yuric might have a quest for the party and the Buhlevek Caravan might deal fairly on the sword but then pick a PCs pocket or something. I tell my players that buying magic items (other than some consumables) isn't just a trip to Target so they're not blindsided by the event.
Sure, at the end of the day they're still buying a magic item and that's not very epic. But it's THEY'RE game; if they don't want to buy magic they don't HAVE to. Or if they'd rather commission it so it's unique to them, make it themselves or whatever, so be it.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I'll have it if it's important. Maybe even invest in feats and make it myself.I guess you'll have it if you're determined enough to get it. Sounds like it could be a good plot hook.
No, it's houseruled Pathfinder, which might or might not be very different from Pathfinder, that's why it's an important distinction.Didn't I previously say that a DM who didn't tell his players about changes would be more than a bit of a tool?
But house-ruled Pathfinder is a variant of ...
... wait for it ...
... Pathfinder. You said it yourself.
While assuming you're using the rules in the books, becasue why else would you bother buying it? Just to ignore it all?No, to use that which you enjoy and find useful, and alter and ignore the rest.
Pathfinder is a tool kit with a wide assortment of stuff in it. Some people don't need or want eleven hammers and six metric screwdrivers with sonic capacity and equipment to lay pipe or resurface a highway. So they remove them.
There is no One Way to play this game. I buy every single book that Paizo puts out. I do not use every single item from every single book in every single campaign; not every game benefits from every single choice.
Why do you have to use anything for something you aren't going to have when you start play anyway?Maybe because I prefer to have a plan for my character at least a few levels ahead? Or maybe because the concept I want, unfortunately, can't be made to work without some items within PF?
Are you gonna discriminate me just because I don't play the way you play? I make a plan for my character in advance (which, BTW, can totally be all in-character as well). So what?
...
YES! That's exactly what I'm going to do, in the truest sense of the word, not the trumped-up politically correct sense. I'm going to tell you that you can't play MY game YOUR way. I can't think of a single GM or player that doesn't practice discrimination when finding a group to play with. I know you were being facetious, but you actually managed to hit the truth.