She cannot be detected by any means, so the orcs will never know she's there and she can continue to kill, one after another until interuped by something like them all fleeing in horror, or an AOE spell, etc.
They don't know what's killing them...whatever it is has yet to be recognized
I wouldn't run into the wall too much on the word recognized...if they cannot see the attack coming then they get assassinated (with a failed save)
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Regardless of whether it's legal, it's just a dick move.
Also, Invisible Blade is like Greater Invisibility. It is not Hidden Master, which is the one that can't be detected by any means Shimesen. The ninja gets detected, they know something just attacked their friend.
In my opinion thats enough to fulfill the "recognition" part as I view it as people recognize there is a threat. Unfortunately, this is left open to interpretation.
Regardless of whether it's legal, it's just a dick move.
Also, Invisible Blade is like Greater Invisibility. It is not Hidden Master, which is the one that can't be detected by any means Shimesen. The ninja gets detected, they know something just attacked their friend.
In my opinion thats enough to fulfill the "recognition" part as I view it as people recognize there is a threat. Unfortunately, this is left open to interpretation.
you are correct, i was thinking of hidden master, sorry. my statement still stands however. if under the effect of greater invisibility, unless somehow detected (with see invisibility or similar) then killing something does not make you detected. that being said, i would allow all creatures within range a free perception check against the invisible attackers stealth check to be found because killing someone is never really quiet. but then again, using sniping in conjunction with assassinate fixes this entirely.
Remember, when you attack you cannot use stealth.
Technically, while you're still invisible people know you're there after you attack. Attacking and being "undetected" are mutually exclusive. Now the next round he could use stealth again.
On the whole, is a very odd interaction of rules.
To the op does anyone in your group have see invisible? And is the dm aware if the case wasn
No? If that's the case your group needs to sit down and have a talk.
being undetected means he hasn't been seen/heard/touched by something thats still alive. killing something in one blow doesn't change this. but that doesn't mean that something falling to the floor dead shouldn't allow a skill check to detect what made it do so. i used stealth check as the opposed check because that seemed to be the appropriate thing to do. none the less, i see no reason not to allow a perception check when something dies for apparently no reason....
Hmm. It struck me odd when I first read "recognize" in that ability. Stealth vs Perception probably falls under that category, but the first skill that jumped out at me was Disguise as far as recognition goes.
It may just be a blanket phrase to cover for attacking someone who is incapable of the realization of a threat.
is the opponent is unaware that you are about to attack them, then you are undetected. this can happen many different ways. being in disguise is one of them, so is being invisible, stealthed, or simple not being perceived as a threat (perhaps they are indifferent or friendly to you due to a few diplomacy checks). however you accomplish this, when the opponent doesnt see a reason to be "on guard" or otherwise has no idea where to be "on guard" to, then you are undetected. the moment you, as the attacker, are recognized as a threat, you are detected. make more sense?
Lets be honest here the "recognize" clause is very ambiguous. Some of us seem to have very different interpretations of what exactly that entails. This is something that should be left to specific games rather than quibble about it, as different GMs are likely to run it differently.
To the point, if you're GM did this to you then you need to sit with him and have a talk. Such actions aren't okay if the GM specifically orchestrates an attack that he knows the PCs are unable to counter. Such action is unacceptable. He should not have the goal of killing off the entire group.
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Guys... it doesn't say just 'recognize'... it says "recognize as an enemy".
Do the orcs recognize the ninja as an enemy? YES.
Do they recognize the ninja? Eh, not exactly.
Different meanings. They don't know exactly what he is... but they most certainly know he is an enemy.
Assassinate only works on people who are completely unaware of impending death. An invisible ninja in the middle of combat does not qualify, he has been recognized as an enemy.
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Invisible Blade (Su): Whenever a ninja uses the vanishing trick ninja trick, she is treated as if she were under the effects of greater invisibility. The ninja must have the vanishing trick ninja trick before selecting this ninja trick.
INVISIBILITY
The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.
INVISIBILITY, GREATER
This spell functions like invisibility, except that it doesn't end if the subject attacks.Assassinate (Ex): A ninja with this master trick can kill foes that are unable to defend themselves. To attempt to assassinate a target, the ninja must first study her target for 1 round as a standard action. On the following round, if the ninja makes a sneak attack against the target and the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly killing the target. This attempt automatically fails if the target recognizes the ninja as an enemy. If the sneak attack is successful and the target of this attack fails a Fortitude save, it dies. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the ninja's level + the ninja's Charisma modifier. If the save is successful, the target still takes the sneak attack damage as normal, but it is immune to that ninja's assassinate ability for 1 day.
Do they see the ninja to recognize the ninja as an enemy? Depends on the perception check and active spells in area.
They may know their is a enemy in the area but, they don't know who or what they are facing to recognize the pc as an enemy "yet". This is because of greater invisibility. The act of attacking doesn't stop greater invisibility from working. So the orcs in this case have to beat the ninjas "passive" stealth. (stealth skill total + 20/40) Once that is done by any one of the orcs then the assassinate skill can't be used. For the orcs have now recognized the enemy.
But, according to the rules you can't use stealth and attack. Even while under the effects of greater invisibility you technically break stealth when you attack. Which means you have a stealth of 0(?) to be detected.
But, according to the rules you can't use stealth and attack. Even while under the effects of greater invisibility you technically break stealth when you attack. Which means you have a stealth of 0(?) to be detected.
You arnt actively using it,no. But your bonus is still the DC for the perception check to find you.
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I would probably rule that knowing an enemy is in their midst counts as recognition just because otherwise, it's ridiculous.
But, according to the rules you can't use stealth and attack. Even while under the effects of greater invisibility you technically break stealth when you attack. Which means you have a stealth of 0(?) to be detected.You arnt actively using it,no. But your bonus is still the DC for the perception check to find you.
So 20? Remeber, you can detect an invisible creature is in the area with only a DC 20, without them even doing anything. Higher DCs than that are to pinpoint their locaiton.
I would probably rule that knowing an enemy is in their midst counts as recognition just because otherwise, it's ridiculous.
Bingo. That's really my damn point.
On that we disagree I feel. Unless you can see/hear or otherwise discern their location, all you know is that people are dropping dead. I could achieve the same goal (people dropping dead) with some creative spell combos involving save it dies like dissentigrate. At which point those left alive have the same knowledge as when there is an invisible attacker (people are dropping dead around me). The perception check made to find the attacker would be the same check, but would yield different results because the method of killing would be different, but I could potentially kill someone from halfway across a city or from outside the building with some spell spinning combos. So how then, would the above mentioned orcs know there's a bad guy in the room if there isn't? They don't, until they can see/hear him in there, or else deduce his location by recognizing that he's killing with a bladed weapon and can't be far away, so they start baby powdering the room. See my point?
I agree with Claxon that it should be discussed group to group because I completely disagree with his idea of what being recognized as an enemy is...since the rules cannot cover this one down to the word then it's best left to GM/table discussion to rule it. Just be sure to have a nice heart to heart with your GM if you plan on doing it.
I agree that the rules are very unclear on this issue. But I don't feel that just standing there when someone dies make you aware of an attacker threatening you. Once you make some kind of check to investigate the matter and succeed, then yes. But just being there isn't enough to say "yep, there's a bad guy right there next to the body.
Being aware of a threat and knowing the distance and direction to the threat are very different.
I can be walking near a cliff and know that there is a threat of falling. I know how far and in what direction it is. I am aware of that threat.
Conversely, if I were blind and you told me there us a cliff nearby and nothing else. I am still not aware of that threat because I can still walk right off the cliff, even though I know its around somewhere.
I agree that the rules are very unclear on this issue. But I don't feel that just standing there when someone dies make you aware of an attacker threatening you. Once you make some kind of check to investigate the matter and succeed, then yes. But just being there isn't enough to say "yep, there's a bad guy right there next to the body.
Being aware of a threat and knowing the distance and direction to the threat are very different.
I can be walking near a cliff and know that there is a threat of falling. I know how far and in what direction it is. I am aware of that threat.
Conversely, if I were blind and you told me there us a cliff nearby and nothing else. I am still not aware of that threat because I can still walk right off the cliff, even though I know its around somewhere.
You’re hanging out with a half dozen of your buddies. Yall are having a feast and celebrating Bob’s promotion in the city guard. You live in a world of magic and monsters.
John is in the middle of a story about how he saved a princess from an evil dragon, when all of a sudden his sides are sliced clean open, blood sprays across the floor as his insides become outsides. He falls to the ground dead, as you and your friends watched in horror as some invisible force cut through his flesh.
Do you:
A) Shrug it off, weird stuff happens, can’t explain it.
B) Recognize that there is an enemy in your midst, who is most likely invisible.
I was to going to actually give my thoughts at first but I want to now
I agree that if I were in a world where invisibility was a thing and I were in a group or gathering AND someone was killed in front of me (although the blood spraying part is all thematic...could be easily described as stabbing the kidney or severing the brain stem with the blade...almost no blood shown at first until inspected) then yes I would think there was an enemy of sorts
HOWEVER unless I gain see invisibility or have some other way of actually seeing the ninja and am able to keep track of said ninja (not just pinpoint the square) then I cannot honestly say I recognize what it actually is. The ninja could very well stealth after the attack and then disguise himself/herself as a villager or whatever and then wait for things to calm down and murder again.
The way I see it is the ninja has to actually be seen by the potential target for the assassination to fail
Hell assassins get an ability to murder someone in broad daylight in the middle of town square or whatever and no one even notices for a bit
I think a level 10 or higher ninja should very much be able to murder a group of low level people if his/her heart desired...they did work for it
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I was to going to actually give my thoughts at first but I want to now
I agree that if I were in a world where invisibility was a thing and I were in a group or gathering AND someone was killed in front of me (although the blood spraying part is all thematic...could be easily described as stabbing the kidney or severing the brain stem with the blade...almost no blood shown at first until inspected) then yes I would think there was an enemy of sorts
HOWEVER unless I gain see invisibility or have some other way of actually seeing the ninja and am able to keep track of said ninja (not just pinpoint the square) then I cannot honestly say I recognize what it actually is. The ninja could very well stealth after the attack and then disguise himself/herself as a villager or whatever and then wait for things to calm down and murder again.
The way I see it is the ninja has to actually be seen by the potential target for the assassination to fail
Hell assassins get an ability to murder someone in broad daylight in the middle of town square or whatever and no one even notices for a bit
I think a level 10 or higher ninja should very much be able to murder a group of low level people if his/her heart desired...they did work for it
All you have to ask is if the statement "You recognize the ninja as an enemy" is true or not.
If you have recognized that there is an enemy who is killing people in your presence... and it is the invisible ninja who is doing the killing… then: You have recognized the ninja is an enemy. It is a true statement.
The recognize an enemy stuff is there to allow the ninja to study somone while in plane view. So the ninja disguised as a little old lady in the market study's the handsome young adventurer like her Thomas when he was young. Then knifes the adventurer in the back. She is then recognized as an enemy.
The problem with the greater invis is knowing their there doesnt do anything.
Really though the issue with the encounter wasnt asassination, thrown against a party with See invis hed have at best gotten one off. Bt the DM more or less made the decision he didnt want the players to play those characters anymore and instead of saying 'hey we are starting a new game' had them all killed.
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I was to going to actually give my thoughts at first but I want to now
I agree that if I were in a world where invisibility was a thing and I were in a group or gathering AND someone was killed in front of me (although the blood spraying part is all thematic...could be easily described as stabbing the kidney or severing the brain stem with the blade...almost no blood shown at first until inspected) then yes I would think there was an enemy of sorts
HOWEVER unless I gain see invisibility or have some other way of actually seeing the ninja and am able to keep track of said ninja (not just pinpoint the square) then I cannot honestly say I recognize what it actually is. The ninja could very well stealth after the attack and then disguise himself/herself as a villager or whatever and then wait for things to calm down and murder again.
The way I see it is the ninja has to actually be seen by the potential target for the assassination to fail
Hell assassins get an ability to murder someone in broad daylight in the middle of town square or whatever and no one even notices for a bit
I think a level 10 or higher ninja should very much be able to murder a group of low level people if his/her heart desired...they did work for it
All you have to ask is if the statement "You recognize the ninja as an enemy" is true or not.
If you have recognized that there is an enemy who is killing people in your presence... and it is the invisible ninja who is doing the killing… then: You have recognized the ninja is an enemy. It is a true statement.
And that is where I have to respectfully disagree...you have recognized the is "something" killing people in your presence...until you pinpoint what it was then you do not know what it was.
If a sorcerer casts phantasmal killer stilled and silenced on someone in a crowded area and no one can make the spell craft check...would the sorcerer be somehow recognized as the assailant? My view is no...for the same reason the ninja is not recognized as well.
And that is where I have to respectfully disagree...you have recognized the is "something" killing people in your presence...until you pinpoint what it was then you do not know what it was.
If a sorcerer casts phantasmal killer stilled and silenced on someone in a crowded area and no one can make the spell craft check...would the sorcerer be somehow recognized as the assailant? My view is no...for the...
You know it is an enemy. That might be all you know about it... but you do know it is an enemy.
You may not know where it is. Who or what it is. Why it is. But... you do that of the many characteristics it could have... 'enemy' is one of them.
Thus... you have recognized it as an enemy.
Or can blind people never recognize anyone as an enemy? That is essentially what you are saying.
And that is where I have to respectfully disagree...you have recognized the is "something" killing people in your presence...until you pinpoint what it was then you do not know what it was.
If a sorcerer casts phantasmal killer stilled and silenced on someone in a crowded area and no one can make the spell craft check...would the sorcerer be somehow recognized as the assailant? My view is no...for the...
You know it is an enemy. That might be all you know about it... but you do know it is an enemy.
You may not know where it is. Who or what it is. Why it is. But... you do that of the many characteristics it could have... 'enemy' is one of them.
Thus... you have recognized it as an enemy.
Or can blind people never recognize anyone as an enemy? That is essentially what you are saying.
Is the ability foiled by the target knowing there is an enemy or by the target knowing the ninja is the enemy?
If the orcs were engaged in battle with a third party, can the ninja use the trick at all?
Is the ability foiled by the target knowing there is an enemy or by the target knowing the ninja is the enemy?
If the orcs were engaged in battle with a third party, can the ninja use the trick at all?
By recognizing the ninja as an enemy. Exactly what it says.
If you are attacked by an invisible stalker, do you recognize the invisible stalker as an enemy? Yes. Do you recognize it as an invisible stalker? Probably not.
If you get shot at by an archer who is sniping, do you recognize him as an enemy? Yes. Do you even know who or where he is? No.
If you get attacked by an invisible ninja, do you recognize him as an enemy? Yes.
All that is required is to recognize him as an enemy. That is to say, recognize it is an enemy that is attacking, of which he happens to be. If his actions are causing you to realize there is an enemy present, he has been recognized as an enemy.
So, if there was an ongoing conflict with some orcs, could the ninja use assassinate? Yeah, very likely he could. Could he use it more than once? Only if he was very... very careful about when he did it. He'd have to do it in such a way as to prevent anyone from realizing that he was even there killing people.
Might be able to pull it off if he used it on people who were out of line of sight from one another, so that no one ever saw one of their buddies being struck down out of nowhere. In the chaos, he might be able to pull it off. It'd be tricky though. And as soon as anyone spotted an ally of theirs being slain by some invisible force the gig would be up. They have then recognized him as an enemy.
Do I think this clause in the ability makes any particular sense? No, not really. It is just that by RAW that is what it says...
I mean, the whole thing is kinda silly. Say you have a dude who is bound and tied. Shouldn't the ninja be able to use this ability? Yes. Can he? Not if the guy recognizes the ninja as an enemy... and he probably does since the ninja has been keeping him tied up. That is silly... of course he should be able to; the guy cannot do anything about it really.
Or what about a paralyzed target? Why can he not use it on someone who literally cannot move? Why does knowing the ninja is an enemy have anything to do with it?
Like I said...very unclear, very open to discussion. Ask you GM how he will allow it to work.
Personally, allowing repeated ganking because you're ninja can be greater invisible is too powerful. Not that ninjas and rogues don't need a power boost, but outright killing multiple people raises the power level from very meh to hold the frack up.
As to the OPs issue, there is much more at hand and more important issues than whether the ninja could or couldn't actually do this. As the GM used this against you he was saying (though indirectly) that he's unhappy about the game. He nearly TPK'd your party, and for no obvious reason other than he could.
You should sit and think hard about why he would do this and talk to them GM about what happened because it's not fair to you all as players.
I agree that the rules are very unclear on this issue. But I don't feel that just standing there when someone dies make you aware of an attacker threatening you. Once you make some kind of check to investigate the matter and succeed, then yes. But just being there isn't enough to say "yep, there's a bad guy right there next to the body.
Being aware of a threat and knowing the distance and direction to the threat are very different.
I can be walking near a cliff and know that there is a threat of falling. I know how far and in what direction it is. I am aware of that threat.
Conversely, if I were blind and you told me there us a cliff nearby and nothing else. I am still not aware of that threat because I can still walk right off the cliff, even though I know its around somewhere.
You’re hanging out with a half dozen of your buddies. Yall are having a feast and celebrating Bob’s promotion in the city guard. You live in a world of magic and monsters.
John is in the middle of a story about how he saved a princess from an evil dragon, when all of a sudden his sides are sliced clean open, blood sprays across the floor as his insides become outsides. He falls to the ground dead, as you and your friends watched in horror as some invisible force cut through his flesh.
Do you:
A) Shrug it off, weird stuff happens, can’t explain it.
B) Recognize that there is an enemy in your midst, who is most likely invisible.
In this scenario, although you see someone die right in front of you, the killing blow could have come from the guy sitting next to him (with a hidden weapon and a slight of hand check), a spellcaster on the other side of the room (via silent+still spell) or a slew of other ways that includes an invisible attacker. You don't know which of these things it was, and therefore have to figure out the cause somehow before you know for sure. In your setup you are ASSUMING there us an invisible attacker, but you have no proof that that's true. He could have been killed by many different things.
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Bob drops dead in the middle of giving a speech during his best friend's wedding.
Who is the enemy?
Answer that and then I will tell who the enemy is.
Bob drops dead in the middle of giving a speech during his best friend's wedding.
Who is the enemy?
Answer that and then I will tell who the enemy is.
How did he die?
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He just died...he just fell over dead in front of everyone...in game it's now been six seconds later...as in he's been dead for six seconds...there is no clear indication of how he died...if you would like to try something please tell me what as if I were your GM
Who is the enemy?
He just died...he just fell over dead in front of everyone...in game it's now been six seconds later...as in he's been dead for six seconds...there is no clear indication of how he died...if you would like to try something please tell me what as if I were your GM
Who is the enemy?
Hrm. Why do I know he is dead then?
I'm telling you as your GM he is dead...it's up to you now
If I am to properly explain why I disagree with your definition of recognizing an enemy it's best done as if it were role play
Bob is very dead...if you were to check for a pulse he has none...no response...no breathing...DEAD
it has now been another round...a woman 40 ft away screams as her husband falls dead beside her...what do you do now? Make up a perception roll or something if you must you are 20 ft from Bob and 40 ft from the new dead man (we will call him Gosbor)
Who is the enemy?
I'm telling you as your GM he is dead...it's up to you now
If I am to properly explain why I disagree with your definition of recognizing an enemy it's best done as if it were role play
Bob is very dead...if you were to check for a pulse he has none...no response...no breathing...DEAD
it has now been another round...a woman 40 ft away screams as her husband falls dead beside her...what do you do now? Make up a perception roll or something if you must you are 20 ft from Bob and 40 ft from the new dead man (we will call him Gosbor)
Who is the enemy?
Ha. No seriously. Why do I know he is dead? If you're GMing you gotta paint a better picture. I mean, I get it... he is dead... but why do 'I' know that he is dead? People don't generally die before they even hit the floor... seems more likely that it'd look like he collapsed without a cause?
But, assuming a 2nd dude hits the ground within a matter of seconds, I'm now on a hair trigger. One guy collapsing from an unknown cause is troubling, but a second means something very bad is happening. Whether they're dead or not. I'm scanning for the cause, most likely. Someone has caused this somehow. I’m looking for the who or what responsible. (Ie. The enemy, in game terms)
I still feel like you're being purposefully vague with relevant details about the place and setting. Not very GM-like at all, really. I mean, in this hypothetical, I don't even know if we're in a pathfinder setting or a pretend real world one. That'd sorta change how I react, no?
But yeah, if a GM ever failed to describe something, and I as a player then asked him to describe it, and he fast forwarded a round just cuz, then I'd probably walk. He'd probably be that combative GM who has one too many power trips. I ain't got time for that.
Because in those cases, the GM is the enemy.
Setting doesn't matter here much but I'll provide...
It's an outdoors wedding in a clearing about 100ft round surrounded by sparse wood
You as a player have done nothing so far other than look around or "scanning"
Because of what caused his death and the fact that you have done nothing but "scan" I cannot say much more about his death. He is clearly dead...as if by a heart attack or other means...no blood, no wounds
IF you took the next round to check on poor dead Gosbor he is also dead from unknown means...no blood but upon closer inspection you notice marks on the back of his neck like bruises
For all intents and purposes we are in a pathfinder setting...play like it was the game
[meta info]
At this point by your interpretation of the rules you would instantly recognize 2 enemies...the invisible wizard in one of the trees that cast phantasmal killer on Bob and the invisible ninja who assassinated Gosbor with his bare hands (unarmed strike) and then spent a ki point and bolted 50 ft away[/meta info]
Now if you didn't have the meta gamed info above could you tell me who the enemy is?
You don't have to know who the enemy is, is what he's saying.
You know there's an enemy around. People don't just drop dead with mysterious bruises on their neck without enemy action.
You are no longer unaware of a threat. You are unaware of the location of the threat, yes, but that's not the same thing.
And I'm saying there is a major distinction between knowing there IS an enemy/threat and knowing WHO the enemy/threat is.
What I posted above is actually a piece of my GMs campaign from last year...here are actually multiple ninjas assassins (3), a sorcerer, and a gunslinger
In our game someone was able to catch one of the ninjas with glitterdust so we could see him...NOW he is recognized as an enemy. By remy's ruling the other ninjas who have yet to even make a move are now unable to assassinate anyone because somehow even though we have no clue they are there...they are now magically recognized as enemies...how exactly does that make sense?
If a treant falls dead in a forest is the enemy recognized?
Glad to know that if I just make all my characters paranoid of threats at all times then all enemies will shine red so that I know they are my enemies...makes me think of assassin's creed
Those last 2 posts were in jest....do not take them seriously
Setting doesn't matter here much but I'll provide...
It's an outdoors wedding in a clearing about 100ft round surrounded by sparse wood
You as a player have done nothing so far other than look around or "scanning"
Because of what caused his death and the fact that you have done nothing but "scan" I cannot say much more about his death. He is clearly dead...as if by a heart attack or other means...no blood, no wounds
IF you took the next round to check on poor dead Gosbor he is also dead from unknown means...no blood but upon closer inspection you notice marks on the back of his neck like bruises
For all intents and purposes we are in a pathfinder setting...play like it was the game
[meta info]
At this point by your interpretation of the rules you would instantly recognize 2 enemies...the invisible wizard in one of the trees that cast phantasmal killer on Bob and the invisible ninja who assassinated Gosbor with his bare hands (unarmed strike) and then spent a ki point and bolted 50 ft away[/meta info]Now if you didn't have the meta gamed info above could you tell me who the enemy is?
Whoa whoa whoa.
Dude... you didn't say anything about Bob letting out a blood curdling scream of horror for a brief moment before he died with the expression of pure terror forever locked onto his lifeless face. Or how he tried to protect himself in vain, or flailed about before succumbing to the dark magic...
And, was the invisible wizard casting his spell silently? Phantasmal killer has verbal components... those cannot just be whispered quietly. Woulda heard that.
And as for Gosbor, probably woulda heard his neck snap, or saw his body contort and his head forcefully wrench to one side a little farther than it is supposed to. I mean, that is what we're talking about right? Dude just got his neck snapped?
After seeing some dude get his neck snapped by an unseen force, I'd totally recognize the unseen force as an enemy! That'd be way scary. I don't what it is, precisely, but I most certainly know it’s bad news.
If I described it that way yes...but that's all thematic...phantasmal killer targets don't have to die screaming...and killing someone with an extraordianry ability using an unarmed strike does not have to be a neck breaking
And yet again you miss my point...of course the unseen force is an enemy...but which unseen force is it?
There are 2 more ninjas...do you recognize them as enemies? If yes then how? If not then what difference is it if the first ninjas runs to another person and attempts to assassinate them?
The three ninjas are name Karkath (halfling), Brakar(halforc), and Simli(elf)
Forget everything ive described and tell me which ninjas is your enemy? Which one do you recognize as the enemy? You cant tell me because you recognize none of them...you only recognize there is a threat...that's it
I'm not saying you are wrong...you are free to interpret it however...I am only trying to make my interpretation clear because to truly debate you must fully understand your opposition...as such I am trying to get you to explain your interpretation to me through examples
If your interpretation tells you that now all three ninjas are recognized as enemies then you are going beyond knowledge the character could possibly have...at least that is how I would see it
I missed your question about the spell at first...I had forgotten so asked my GM...yes the spell was silenced...and the caster was 150 ft away under greater invisibility
If I described it that way yes...but that's all thematic...phantasmal killer targets don't have to die screaming...and killing someone with an extraordianry ability using an unarmed strike does not have to be a neck breaking
And yet again you miss my point...of course the unseen force is an enemy...but which unseen force is it?
There are 2 more ninjas...do you recognize them as enemies? If yes then how? If not then what difference is it if the first ninjas runs to another person and attempts to assassinate them?
The three ninjas are name Karkath (halfling), Brakar(halforc), and Simli(elf)
Forget everything ive described and tell me which ninjas is your enemy? Which one do you recognize as the enemy? You cant tell me because you recognize none of them...you only recognize there is a threat...that's it
I'm not saying you are wrong...you are free to interpret it however...I am only trying to make my interpretation clear because to truly debate you must fully understand your opposition...as such I am trying to get you to explain your interpretation to me through examples
If your interpretation tells you that now all three ninjas are recognized as enemies then you are going beyond knowledge the character could possibly have...at least that is how I would see it
I didn't miss your point. And I understand your perspective very clearly. You think that 'recognize' means you can point out the ninja from a line-up.
You recognize the most typical usage of the word recognize, and are applying that usage to this ability. I recognize that you are doing this.
Interestingly enough, I don't know who you are. In fact, each post you've made could in theory have been made by a different person entirely. You may be an alien, or an android, or a midget in pink tights.
I have no idea who you actually are.
But I do recognize you as a poster here on the forums who disagrees on this matter.
>.>
To answer your questions... The ninja who used assassinate is recognized as an enemy any time he kills someone's allies and it is noticed. Whether he is explicitly seen or not. If his actions cause someone to realize there is an enemy present, then he has been recognized as an enemy.
If the other two ninjas are standing by, just chillin, then they have not yet been recognized as enemies. As soon as their actions as noticed as hostile, then they have been recognized as an enemy.
Like I’ve said, the 'recognized as an enemy' clause I think is a poorly worded exception to an ability. It fails the 'does it make sense' test.
Say a ninja kidnaps you, ties you up to a tree such that you are fully and completely restrained, and then injects you with some paralysis poison... He cannot use his assassinate ability on you. Why? because your awareness of him, as an enemy, prevents it, ...you know, somehow.
Whether like you say, that you have to see the ninja guy or like I say, that you only need to recognize him as a threat... either way, he cannot use his ability on a tied up and paralyzed foe... simply cuz. It is silly.
Then by that we can at least agree that it needs clarity
And the thing about all my post possibly being made by separate people or me being an alien...I was going to post something like that...actually almost word for word but decided not to...thought that was funny is all