One thing i noticed is that the rounds of morph you get is quite low and considering you can cast the various evolution surge spells but you cant cast whilst morphed. A reminder or call out mentioning that evolution surge can be cast on himself despite not being in morph form or explictly allowing those spells only to be cast in form.
I don't see the number of rounds as being low, as the MCA is the one taking the form. Usable 3 + Con mod per day, and 1 minute per level is sufficient for this kind of ability. Plus you can add evolution points too.
It already says in Ancestral Taint, that spells cannot be cast while in his base form (or with evolutions).
"While in his base form (including evolutions), the evolutionary stalker’s maximum number of attacks per round, whether with weapons or natural weapons, may not exceed that of his base attack bonus. He is also unable to cast spells while in this form." However, I think I'll make a slight change to specifics for it. (see below)
Does the outsider taint have the inherent advantage of still being able to wield weapons whilst morphed?
Absolutely. Why wouldn't it, it has arms to use them.
Is the morph effect a polymorph effect for determining what armour and/or armour continue to work. Mainly refering to the outsider taint. The polymorph information only really calls out dragons and magical beasts. Abberations can probably be easy to work out but the general info about polymorph and humanoid(ish) creatures (giant form, monstrous physique etc) seems to imply you can keep your equipment and notably armour and weapons. This either needs to be called out as not allowed or reminder text stating that it is allowed.
Changes to ancetral taint.
Aberration: The evolutionary stalker gains the aquatic base form.
Dragon: The evolutionary stalker gains the serpentine base form.
Magical Beast: The evolutionary stalker’s gains the quadruped base form.
Outsider: The evolutionary stalker gains the biped base form and darkvision 30 feet (or +30 feet if the evolutionary stalker has darkvision).
Ancestral taint is a transmutation (polymorph) effect. This ability replaces Endurance and wild empathy.
I don't see the number of rounds as being low, as the MCA is the one taking the form. Usable 3 + Con mod per day, and 1 minute per level is sufficient for this kind of ability. Plus you can add evolution points too.
It already says in Ancestral Taint, that spells cannot be cast while in his base form (or with evolutions).
"While in his base form (including evolutions), the evolutionary stalker’s maximum number of attacks per round, whether with weapons or natural weapons, may not exceed that of his base attack bonus. He is also unable to cast spells while in this form." However, I think I'll make a slight change to specifics for it. (see below)
My bad, misread minutes per level as rounds per level
# EVOLUTIONARY STALKER
You have obviously worked a lot on this already, the polish level is quite high.
The only think I feel I would do different is the direct connection between ancestral taint and base form. I could see each ancestral taint offering several options for base form. For example, aberration could offer all base forms. I could also see other types of taint, such as monstrous humanoid and fey. But the current version has a certain elegance, so I am not sure if these things would truly be improvements.
Also, references to other works (like the APG) specifically cannot have a page reference, only a chapter reference. This in the OGL. Things like "(see p.126 of the Advanced Player’s Guide)" illegal, and not in the game rule sense but in that it breaks the license.
# EVOLUTIONARY STALKER
You have obviously worked a lot on this already, the polish level is quite high.
The only think I feel I would do different is the direct connection between ancestral taint and base form. I could see each ancestral taint offering several options for base form. For example, aberration could offer all base forms. I could also see other types of taint, such as monstrous humanoid and fey. But the current version has a certain elegance, so I am not sure if these things would truly be improvements.
Also, references to other works (like the APG) specifically cannot have a page reference, only a chapter reference. This in the OGL. Things like "(see p.126 of the Advanced Player’s Guide)" illegal, and not in the game rule sense but in that it breaks the license.
Yeah, I think we'll leave that alone and keep it as is. As to the page references, I already removed it. I noticed it after I had posted the MCA. Also went and changed it on the wiki.
Anthing else on Evolutionary Stalker? Or we'll move on.
Queue Update
Master Metamorphist – Alc/Wiz (Bardess)
Saint of Rogues– Rog/Clr (Starfox)
Thaumaturge – Sum/Sor (Gadgeteer Smashwidget)
Rhythmic/Cacophany Blaster – Gun/Brd (Christos Gurd)
Old Wiki MCA (Fell Knight)
Anthing else on Evolutionary Stalker? Or we'll move on.
Queue Update
Master Metamorphist – Alc/Wiz (Bardess)
Saint of Rogues– Rog/Clr (Starfox)
Thaumaturge – Sum/Sor (Gadgeteer Smashwidget)
Rhythmic/Cacophany Blaster – Gun/Brd (Christos Gurd)
Old Wiki MCA (Fell Knight)
Sign me up for one of 3 different druid archetypes ive been working on, been going druid crazy!
Crow druid (druid/rogue)
Savage Avenger (druid/Inquisitor)
Elemental Envoy (druid/oracle)
Ill submit (when my turn comes up) which ever has the most interest
Done!
The evolutionary stalker gains darkvision 60 feet and the following base form (see Base Forms in the Eidolon entry of the Summoner class description) according to his ancestral taint.
Aberration: The evolutionary stalker gains the aquatic base form.Dragon: The evolutionary stalker gains the serpentine base form.
Magical Beast: The evolutionary stalker’s gains the quadruped base form.
Outsider: The evolutionary stalker gains the biped base form and darkvision 30 feet (or +30 feet if the evolutionary stalker has darkvision).
bold mine
Just a question regarding darkvision part and outsider, what distance does he get both in taint form. Is it 90' and non-outsiders in taint 60' or is it 60' or 90' if his base race has darkvision?
@Apraham: The Crow Druid bring nostalgia-memories of Warcraft 3. I'd like to work on that one when your turn comes up.
The evolutionary stalker gains darkvision 60 feet and the following base form (see Base Forms in the Eidolon entry of the Summoner class description) according to his ancestral taint.
Aberration: The evolutionary stalker gains the aquatic base form.Dragon: The evolutionary stalker gains the serpentine base form.
Magical Beast: The evolutionary stalker’s gains the quadruped base form.
Outsider: The evolutionary stalker gains the biped base form and darkvision 30 feet (or +30 feet if the evolutionary stalker has darkvision).
bold mine
Just a question regarding darkvision part and outsider, what distance does he get both in taint form. Is it 90' and non-outsiders in taint 60' or is it 60' or 90' if his base race has darkvision?
Yeah, the Outsider part was meant to say that it gets only darkvision 30 feet, instead of the usual 60 feet mentioned above, but that makes it rather redundant. Let's just go with the 60 feet, and remove the 30 feet stuff in the outsider entry.
@Apraham: The Crow Druid bring nostalgia-memories of Warcraft 3. I'd like to work on that one when your turn comes up.
Its not necessarily crow themed but uses that imagery to conjure the image of a thiefy druid. I went thru many names/creatues such as raven druid, coyote druid, racoon druid, magpie druid. i even considered squirrel druid as a name so dont expect lots of bird themed abilites
OK, let's move on to Bardess's Master Metamorphist.
*On a side note, Ive just realized I have a skabillion of my own MCAs that need critiquing. At least we have a few years to go still.
@Elghinn: only a few years? Don't forget, we've still got ACG class MCAs and the eventual 4ed class ripoffs to do MCAs with.
Here!
One of alchemy’s boldest dreams ever is shapechanging. Flowing from form to form like quicksilver, puzzling your enemies, assuming whatever shape strikes most your fancy at the moment, being everyone and everything at your will. The masters metamorphists give up bombs’ firepower for an expanded knowledge of polymorph magic, and learn to brew potent metamorphic mutagens to assume a variety of other forms for extended periods of time– at higher levels, almost in permanence.
Primary Class: Alchemist
Secondary Class: Wizard
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d8
Skills: +3 wizard skills, 2 points + Int bonus/level
BAB: ¾
Saves: GGP
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: as alchemist
1) Alchemy, metamutagen, shapechange school
2) Discovery, poison resistance +2
3) Precise metamorphosis, swift alchemy
4) Discovery
5) Poison resistance +4
6) Discovery
7) ––
8) Discovery, poison resistance +6
9) Amoral aspect
10) Discovery, poison immunity
11) Skill versatility
12) Discovery
13) ––
14) Discovery, persistent metamutagen
15) ––
16) Discovery
17) ––
18) Discovery, instant alchemy
19) ––
20) Grand discovery, true shapechanger
Alchemy: A master metamorphist adds Bluff and Disguise to his list of class skills. He gains a competence bonus equal to ½ his level on all Bluff and Disguise checks. This modifies alchemy.
Brew Potion: As alchemist.
Metamutagen (Sp): The master metamorphist’s pride lies in the mutagens he developed to the purpose of enhancing his polymorphing magic and assume a variety of forms for extended periods of time. When brewing a mutagen, the master metamorphist attunes it to one transmutation extract of which he knows the formula, adding the extract’s material components to the brew. When imbibing this metamutagen, the master metamorphist benefits of that extract’s effect for 10 minutes per master metamorphist level, or until he chooses to change back. Choosing to change back or imbibing another transmutation extract ends the metamutagen’s effect. The master metamorphist may choose a different transmutation extract effect each time he brews a metamutagen.
At 1st level, a metamutagen can function as enlarge person or reduce person; at 4th level, it can function as alter self, lesser agathion appearance, lesser angelic aspect, lesser devilish demeanor, object shape I, or treeshape. At 6th level, it can function as beast shape I, monstrous physique I, or undead anatomy I. Other formulae choices may be available. This ability otherwise functions as mutagen, and replaces mutagen and bomb.
Shapechange School: The master metamorphist receives the powers of the Transmutation/Shapechange arcane school. He doesn’t receive any of the other benefits of specialization in an arcane school. This replaces brew potion and throw anything.
Discovery: As alchemist. The master metamorphist may choose any of the following arcane discoveries in place of a discovery: alchemical affinity, beyond morality, feral speech, idealize, multimorph, werewolf shape. His master metamorphist level is equal to his wizard level for the purpose of accessing these discoveries. The multimorph and werewolf shape discoveries affect the master metamorphist’s metamutagen as if it were a spell or extract.
Poison Resistance: As alchemist.
Precise Metamorphosis (Su): At 3rd level, the master metamorphist can use his metamutagen or transmutation extracts to copy a specific individual. This replaces poison use.
Swift Alchemy: As alchemist.
Amoral Aspect (Ex): At 9th level, a master metamorphist can use extracts of transmutation spells of an alignment opposite to his own. This and skill versatility replace swift poisoning.
Skill Versatility (Ex): At 11th level, a master metamorphist gains the jack–of–all–trades ability of the bard class. His master metamorphist levels stack with his bard levels for the purposes of this ability. This ability and amoral aspect replaces swift poisoning.
Extended Metamutagen: As alchemist, but this ability applies to the master metamorphist’s metamutagen.
Grand Discovery: As alchemist.
True Shapechanger (Su): The master shapechanger gains the shapechanger subtype. He becomes proficient with any weapon that his current assumed form can use. Spells and abilities that detect alignment always show him as having the same alignment of his current form. In addition, the master metamorphist gains the a thousand faces druid’s ability. This replaces the two bonus discoveries gained at 20th level.
Discoveries: The following discoveries complement the master metamorphist archetype: chameleon, eternal potion, extend potion, infuse mutagen, feral mutagen, rag doll mutagen, tentacle, vestigial arm, wings.
The master metamorphist gains access to the following new discoveries:
Improved Metamutagen: The master metamorphist’s metamutagen now functions as beast shape II, elemental body I, monstrous physique II, or vermin shape I. At 10th level, the metamutagen functions as agathion appearance, angelic aspect, beast shape III, devilish demeanor, elemental body II, geniekind, monstrous physique III, object shape II, plant shape I, undead anatomy II, and vermin shape II. Other formulae choices may be available. An alchemist must be at least 8th level and have the metamutagen class feature before he can select this discovery.
Greater Metamutagen: The master metamorphist’s metamutagen now functions as beast shape IV, elemental body III, form of the dragon I, monstrous physique IV, plant shape II, and undead anatomy III. At 14th level, the metamutagen functions as elemental body IV, form of the dragon II, giant form I, object shape III, plant shape III, or statue. Other formulae choices may be available. An alchemist must be at least 12th level and have the improved metamutagen discovery before he can select this discovery.
Grand Metamutagen: The master metamorphist’s metamutagen now functions as form of the dragon III, giant form II, greater agathion appearance, greater angelic aspect, greater devilish demeanor, and undead anatomy IV. At 18th level, the metamutagen functions as object shape IV or shapechange. An alchemist must be at least 16th level and have the improved metamutagen and greater metamutagen discoveries before he can select this discovery.
The master metamorphist gains access to the following grand discovery:
True Metamutagen: When the master metamorphist imbues a metamutagen, he gains all the extraordinary, spell–like and supernatural abilities of the form he chooses, as per that monster’s description. These abilities last as long as the metamutagen’s effect. An alchemist must have selected the improved metamutagen, greater metamutagen and grand metamutagen discoveries before he can select this grand discovery.
A master metamorphist has a greater access to transmutation and polymorph extracts than other alchemists. His formulae list is modified as following:
1st Level: Add aspect of the falcon, aspect of the nightingale, borrow skill, bristle, comprehend languages, face of the devourer, ironbeard, negate aroma, pass without trace, strong wings, and windy escape.
2nd Level: Add ape walk, aspect of the bear, buoyancy, dwarven veil, lesser agathion appearance, lesser angelic aspect, lesser devilish demeanor, lockjaw, scent trail, and tree shape.
3rd Level: Add aspect of the stag, beast shape I, blessing of the mole, channel vigor, glibness, greater animal aspect, hellmouth lash, monstrous extremities, spit venom, and strong jaw. Elemental body I and vermin shape I become 3rd–level extracts.
4th Level: Add agathion appearance, angelic aspect, aspect of the wolf, blessing of the salamander, cloud shape, devilish demeanor, mighty strength, and threefold aspect. Elemental body II, form of the dragon I, and plant shape I, and undead anatomy II become 4th–level extracts.
5th Level: Add form of the dragon II, ethereal jaunt, geniekind, greater polymorph, ice body, and vermin shape II. Elemental body III, giant form I, plant shape II, and undead anatomy III become 5th–level extracts.
6th Level: Add elemental body IV, divine vessel, form of the dragon III, frightful aspect, giant form II, greater agathion appearance, greater angelic aspect, greater devilish demeanor, iron body, plant shape III, polymorph any object, shapechange, swarm skin, and undead anatomy IV.
Devilish Demeanor, Lesser
School transmutation [evil]; Level cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
You take on an aspect of a diabolic being, including some of its physical characteristics.
You gain low-light vision, resistance to fire 5, resistance to poison 5, and the benefits of detect thoughts.
Devilish Demeanor
School transmutation [evil]; Level cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Description
This spell functions like lesser devilish demeanor, except you gain darkvision 60’, resistance to fire and poison 10, and DR 5/good, and you sprout dark batlike wings allowing you to fly at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. In addition, your natural weapons and any weapons you wield are considered lawful and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Devilish Demeanor, Greater
School transmutation [evil]; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 8
Description
This spell functions like lesser devilish demeanor, except you gain a devil’s see in darkness ability; DR 10/good; immunity to fire and poison; resistance to acid and cold 10; and telepathy for the duration of the spell. Also, your wings give you a fly speed of 60 feet with good maneuverability.
Once within the spell’s duration, you can try to summon 3 erinyes (like with summon monster VI, 35%). The summoned devils only stay for 1 minute, and disappear anyway when the spell expires.
Object Shape I
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (a small sample of the chosen substance)
Effect
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Description
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium object made of a material with 0–2 hardness. You gain that hardness while in object form but retain your own hit points. You can see, hear, and smell normally, but you do not need to eat or breathe. Feeling is limited to those sensations that can affect the substance of your body. Damaging the object damages your body too. You can return to your normal state, act, and then return instantly to be an object if you so desire as long as the spell duration is in effect.
Object Shape II
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 4, sorcerer/wizard 5
Description
This spell functions as object shape I, except that it allows you to assume the form of any Tiny to Large object made of a material with up to hardness 5.
Object Shape III
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 5, sorcerer/wizard 7
Description
This spell functions as object shape I, except that it allows you to assume the form of any Diminutive to Huge object made of a material with up to hardness 8.
Object Shape IV
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 6, sorcerer/wizard 9
Description
This spell functions as object shape I, except that it allows you to assume the form of any Diminutive to Huge object made of any material.
True metamutagen makes my knee jerk, but i would have to start checking available forms first before i freak out. Without checking yet, is wish a spell-like ability for any of their forms?
Good point. Genie forms actually have wish. It IS a grand discovery, but still it could be better to tone it down. Just Ex and Su abilities without Sp?
Agree with true metamutagen being to unknown without looking at all the available forms. Some Su abilites would need to be looked at as well as some are very potent (eg. energy drain)
A exact bonus to disguise would be useful for precise metamorphasis.
Its not clear (to me at least) whether you get the normal alchemical bonuses or mutagen when using metamutagen (like a beastmorph using beastform mutagen)or if these are not used and the normal stat/size changes from the various polymorph spells.
Im not sure why it picks up skill versatility tbh.
Is there really a huge problem with alignment and polymorph spells that requires amoral aspect?
What is the interaction of the multimorph arcane discovery and metamutagen? The difference between most polymorph spells at 1min/level going to 10min and later 1 hour a level means a lot of free switching and no real downside.
Other than those i really like. Shape changing ftw!
I'm not sure there should be a cartblanche ability to have his metamutagen function as so many different spells. I think at 1st level, if can function as either enlarge or reduce person. Then at 3rd and every two elvels thereafter, he can choose what other spells it can function as.
So at 3rd, he can choose from the alter self, lesser agathion appearance, lesser angelic aspect, lesser devilish demeanor, object shape I, or treeshape list. And at 7th he adds beast shape I, monstrous physique I, or undead anatomy to the list. Once chosen, he can create a mutagen wth that effect and can't change its. However, at the time he brews the mutagen, he must choose what effect it takes. Then with Improved, Greater, and Grand Metamutagen, he gains access to additional spell effects and can choose from those once he reaced the appropriate levels. But then, with the discoveries at even levels, that makes things a bit funky, unless we simply roll them all into the metamutagen ability? As you are getting rid of bombs, you may as well use that every odd level progression in the metamutagen build. Then, if he wants a normal mutagen, or greater mutagen and grand mutagen, he can choose those as discoveries.
So, I would suggest rolling the whole metamutagen and associated discoveries into a single metamutagen ability that scales along the bomb progression. Essentially, we replace the mutagen and bomb entries ont he progression table with "Metamutagen" or "Metamutagen Form" to fill dead levels.
I also have some different swap suggestsion, but this was the big one I was thingking about. Thoughts?
Ignore my previous post, I now see that the effects of the metamutagen are supposed to duplicate effects of extracts that the master metamorphist knows, not just simply from a list of possible choices. So, he needs to know the extract to be able to create a mutagen with it. My bad!
I assume Improved/Greater/Grand Metamutagens allow access to the 4th/5th/6th level transmutation extracts. The big problem I see is that the alchemist doesn't have access to a number of the discovery listed transmtation spells. So, how is he supposed to make the higher metamutgens work? Perhaps we do need to allow a choice at 13d and every 2 levels thereafter, as to the different effects that his metamutagen can have, especially with the more powerful spells that are listed in his Greater and Grand Metamutagens. So, making his select one spell effect at 3rd and every 2 levels from his available list of metamutagen effects, including those from higher metamutagens.
@Elghinn
See my Formulae List section. I added all the required polymorph spells to the MM's formulae list (he IS half wizard, after all). So he may learn all the required extracts (included the new ones I created).
@Ape
Without Amoral Aspect, a good MM couldn't metamorph in a devil (with Devilish Demeanor) and an evil one couldn't become an angel/agathion (with Angelic Aspect/Agathion Appearance).
(The Agathion Appearance spell chain was created by me for the Wilderness Knight and is already on the wiki).
The metamutagen only allows metamorphosis. It doesn't provide any of a normal mutagen's bonuses.
Multimorph allows the MM to change into another shape allowed from its current metamutagen without having to drink another metamutagen. Maybe I should raise its time cost to match the metamutagen's extended effect.
@Metamutagen
If the Master Metamorph has access to all those transmutation spells, and can create a mutagen that duplicates them for 10 minutes per level, then I think they should only be able to use one spell effect per mutagen, not be able to switch between them. Form of the Dragon III for 200 minutes at 20th is pretty potent.
If you want the ability to switch between two spell effects, then make a new discovery "Dual Metamutagen" or sommething that allows you to brew a metamutagen with two spell effects, and able to switch between them as a standard action. No more then two spell effects. Being able to change from Giant Form I to Dragon Form II to Undead Anatomy III all with the same mutagen breaks the mechanics and point of the mutagen. Only one spell should be duplicated, unless you have a discovery like I suggested to allow a second. Even then, perhaps the duration of the metamutagen should be cut in half with the versitility of it, down to 5 min per level. That's still 100 minutes between two forms at 20th.
20 hours at 20th, actually, with Persistent Metamutagen ;P
But maybe I didn't explain well. First of all, the Multimorph arcane discovery can be selected in place of an alchemist discovery, so there you are.
Then, it has the same effect on a metamutagen that it would have on the corresponding spell. Each dose of metamutagen replicates one polymorph spell. So, you could switch form from a pegasus to a griffon (both allowed by Beast Shape IV) but not from a dragon to an undead (since they require two different spells).
OK, that makes sense now. So we can just use the Multimorph arcane discovery as a mutagen discovery. Only one spell can be duplicated by the mutagen at a time (say elemental body II), allowing the MM to assume a single form for the remainder of his mutagen (an earth elemental). Then, by taking Multimorph, he can assume any other form allowed by the spell by expending 1 minute of the mutagen's duration. So, he could then assume a fire elemental for 10 minutes, a water elemental for 10 minutes, etc., expending 1 minute for each new form he takes.
That works well. Keeps within all the mechanics of the mutagen, and the Multimorph arcane deiscovery. Is 1 minute enough of a cost for each new form taken with the metamutage? Or should we increase it to a 10 minute cost? I think that's what you were refering to in an eariler post Bardess. Might be a good balancer, as the mutagen far out lasts any spell, though, you can only have one in existence at a time of ocurse.
#Master Metamorphist
Very intriguing class. Tough I personally prefer polymorphism of the fey/spontaneous kind, this is well within the concept of the alchemist as Pazio has defined it. It'd delicious as a concept. It started out well developed and has been examined pretty hard, so I think my role is to complicate things with new suggestions. :)
@ Multimorph
I can see two ways for multimorph to work and have a reasonable cost.
One is for the master metamorphist to actually use an extract to assume the new form, which then gains the duration of the mutagen. Effectively, you gain a period of time during which your polymorph extracts have a substantially extended duration.
The other is to lose a duration corresponding to that gained by one level of advancement. Each change means the effective level when computing duration is reduced by one. You can potentially change a number of times equal to your level minus one, but would then have only a quite short duration. This duration loss would normally be 10 minutes, but 1 hour for an persistent metamutagen. Losing just a single minute allows 10 transmutations per level (or 60, with persistent metamutagen). This cost seems so low to me that it might as well be ignored.
@ Swift Metamutagen (Discovery?)
Another option we may want to explore is to allow transformations as swift actions, at cost. If the intent is for the master metamorphist to actually transform in battle, it basically has to be a swift action (possibly a move action) - spending a standard action in combat transforming is very rarely worth it. Question is what the cost should be - more duration loss?
@True Shapechanger
I wonder if the master metamorphist should be treated as the alignment of the assumed form for effects whose result depend on alignment? Similar to how the Imbue with Aura spell works. [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/imbue-with-aura]
Finally, references for the new spells would be nice - even if those references lead right back to the wiki. I'm not so current on 3rd party sources, and many with me I suppose.
#Master Metamorphist
Very intriguing class. Tough I personally prefer polymorphism of the fey/spontaneous kind, this is well within the concept of the alchemist as Pazio has defined it. It'd delicious as a concept. It started out well developed and has been examined pretty hard, so I think my role is to complicate things with new suggestions. :)
@ Multimorph
I can see two ways for multimorph to work and have a reasonable cost.One is for the master metamorphist to actually use an extract to assume the new form, which then gains the duration of the mutagen. Effectively, you gain a period of time during which your polymorph extracts have a substantially extended duration.
The other is to lose a duration corresponding to that gained by one level of advancement. Each change means the effective level when computing duration is reduced by one. You can potentially change a number of times equal to your level minus one, but would then have only a quite short duration. This duration loss would normally be 10 minutes, but 1 hour for an persistent metamutagen. Losing just a single minute allows 10 transmutations per level (or 60, with persistent metamutagen). This cost seems so low to me that it might as well be ignored.
@ Swift Metamutagen (Discovery?)
Another option we may want to explore is to allow transformations as swift actions, at cost. If the intent is for the master metamorphist to actually transform in battle, it basically has to be a swift action (possibly a move action) - spending a standard action in combat transforming is very rarely worth it. Question is what the cost should be - more duration loss?@True Shapechanger
I wonder if the master metamorphist should be treated as the alignment of the assumed form for effects whose result depend on alignment? Similar to how the Imbue with Aura spell works. [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/imbue-with-aura]Finally, references for the new spells would be nice - even if those references lead right back to the wiki. I'm not so...
Regarding Multimorph, i think the 2nd option is probably the prefered option as it scales well with level but still leaves plenty of options avaliable. My only concern is if it such a good option and always taken then it should be baseline at some point. Makes it a better shapechanger than a druid but without the spells so im happy that its not strictly a better class
Agreed on the solution choice. And making a better shapechanger/worse spell caster was just my intent. ^^
OK, I've done some revamping, streamlining, and simplifying.
The primary changes/revisions are:
1) Extract List: I don't belive we should be adding all those powerful extracts to the list (the 7th/8th/9th level transmutation spells). That makes it OP in my opion. Using the Summoner as an example, he's a master conjurerer, but doesn't get all the potent summon monster spells in his list, though he does get up to MS VIII at 6th. I don't think we should go and alter the levels that the alchemist gets all the other transmutation spells (plant shape, beast shape, etc.) either.
Instead we need to use the metamutagen ability to gain those other transmutation spells, similar to how the summoner can get up to gate and summon monster IX through the summon monster class feature. Although he doesn't get these more potent versioins as extracts, he can gain them as metamutagen effects, which last longer, but also keeps the uses restricted to one mutagen at a time. Thus, increasing power level, but maintaining a good restriction on balance and diverse use withint the mtagen mechanic. Thus the list I've included as those added to the alchemist list.
2) Metamutagen: I felt the use of new discoveries and the need to know the spells as extracts clunky and restricting. With my revisions, the master metamorphist gains access to the cool transmutation spells sooner and can access the more potent ones like shapechange, but only within the mutagen mechanic.
Like a paladin's mercies, the master metamorphist must choose what spells he wants his metamutagen to function as sttarting at 3rd level, and can choose a new spell effect every two elvels thereafter. This limits him from gaining all the transmutation spell effects as mutagens (as he has a good spread as extreacts already), but does give him great versatility and a power boost with his transmutation abilities within the mutagen mechanic.
Also, this helps to fill in the old bomb progression wth a choice of a new spell effect in those vacant levels.
Again, this is a balancing thing, as essentailly, at 20th, depending on what is chosen, he could be using form of the dragon III, giant form II or shapechange as his mutagen for up to 20 hours, and with Multimorph be able to morh beteen similar forms within the spell's parameters at the cost of 10 minutes of duration. Then with the new Battle Morphing Discovery, he can change forms as a swift action as Starfox suggested.
3) Swaps: I also changed some of the swaps for abilities to balance those out as well. I removed Skill Versatility as an ability because 1) I didn't see how it really fit into the build, especially if we just keep the 4 + Int skill points of the alchemist (which we should), and 2) I needed to drop something as I ran out of things to swaps for, so it all worked out in the end.
Lastly, Shapechange Subschool requies a larger swap, as you are gaining 3 new class features, two 1st level abilities (one that tends to scale up to 20th) and an 8th level ability.
4) MCA Name: I like the name, but I think we can tweak it and just call it the Master Metamorph, the "ist" feels clinky and doesn't need to be there.
OK, here's my revised version.
SWAPS
Alchemy = Deceptive alchemy
Mutagen/Bombs = Metamutagen (Morphmutagen/Polymutagen)
Brew potion/Throw anything/Poison resistance = Shapechange school
Discovery = Discovery + Arcane discoveries
Poison use = Precise metamorphosis
Swift poisoning = Amoral aspect
Grand discovery = A thousand faces, true shapechanger
One of alchemy’s greatest dreams is to perfect the art of shapechanging, allowing one to flow from form to form like quicksilver. Through alchemical experimentation, the master metamorph has finally achieved this. Master metamorphs have given up their study of bombs for an expanded knowledge of polymorph magic that allows them to confuse their enemies and assume any shape they please. It is through their brewing of potent metamorphic mutagens to assume a specific form for extended periods of time, or shift between multiple forms at higher levels.
Primary Class: Alchemist.
Secondary Class: Wizard.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The master metamophist may select three wizard skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal alchemist class skills. The master metamophist gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The master metamophist is proficient with all simple weapons, with light armor, but not with shields.
Extracts: A master metamorph adds the following spells to his formulae list at the indicated formulae levels.
1st level–aspect of the falcon, aspect of the nightingale, borrow skill, bristle, comprehend languages, face of the devourer, ironbeard, pass without trace, strong wings, windy escape;
2nd level–agathion appearance (lesser), angelic aspect (lesser), animal aspect, ape walk, aspect of the bear, buoyancy, devilish demeanor (lesser), dwarven veil, lockjaw, object shape I, tree shape;
3rd level–aspect of the stag, blessing of the mole, glibness, greater animal aspect, monstrous extremities, spit venom, strong jaw;
4th level–aspect of the wolf, blessing of the salamander, cloud shape, hellmouth lash, mighty strength, threefold aspect;
5th level–agathion appearance, angelic aspect, devilish demeanor, geniekind;
6th level–divine vessel, ethereal jaunt, frightful aspect, greater polymorph, ice body, swarm skin.
Deceptive Alchemy: This functions exactly like the alchemist’s alchemy ability. In addition, the master metamorph adds Bluff and Disguise to his list of class skills. He also gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 his level on all Bluff and Disguise checks. This ability modifies alchemy.
Metamutagen (Su): This is similar to the alchemists mutagen ability, but with the following changes. When a master metamorph brews a metamutagen, it grants him special metamorphic abilities. It’s a standard action to drink a metamutagen. Upon being imbibed, the master metamorph can transform himself in a variety of ways, granting him the effects of a enlarge person or reduce person spell for 10 minutes per master metamorph level.
As the master metamophist gains levels, his metamutagen can duplicate the effects of more powerful transmutation spells. Whenever a master metamorph brews a metamutagen, he gains the effect of one of these transmutation spells instead of the enlarge person or reduce person spell. At 3rd level and every two levels thereafter, the master metamorph can choose one of the following transmutation spells at the indicated levels: 3rd level–alter self, object shape I, tree shape; 5th level–agathion appearance (lesser), angelic aspect (lesser), beast shape I, devilish demeanor (lesser), monstrous physique I, undead anatomy I; 7th level–beast shape II, elemental body I, monstrous physique II, vermin shape I; 9th level–agathion appearance, angelic aspect, beast shape III, devilish demeanor, elemental body II, geniekind, monstrous physique III, object shape III, plant shape I, ndead anatomy II, vermin shape III; 11th level–beast shape IV, elemental body III, form of the dragon I, monstrous physique IV, object shape IV, undead anatomy III; 13th level–elemental body IV, form of the dragon II, giant form I, plant shape III, statue; 15th level–agathion appearance (greater), angelic aspect (greater), devilish demeanor (greater), form of the dragon III, giant form II, undead anatomy III; 17th level–shapechange.
Like a normal mutagen, a non-master metamorph who drinks a metamutagen must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the master metamorph ’s level + the master metamorph’s Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour—a non-master metamorph can never gain the benefit of a metamutagen, but an master metamorph can gain the effects of another master metamorph’s metamutagen if he drinks it. (Although if the other master metamorph creates a different metamutagen, the effects of the “stolen” metamutagen immediately cease.) The effects of a metamutagen do not stack. Whenever a master metamorph drinks a metamutagen, the effects of any previous metamutagen immediately end.
This ability replaces mutagen and bombs.
Shapechange Subschool: At 1st level, a master metamorph gains the wizard’s arcane school and must specialize in the shapechange subschool. He gains the powers associated with the shapechange subschool, but gains no additional benefits from his school. A master metamorph does not select any opposition schools. This ability replaces brew potion, throw anything, and poison resistance.
Discoveries: This is exactly like the alchemist ability of the same name, except that master metamophist cannot select bomb discoveries. In addition, whenever the master metamorph could choose a discovery, he can select one of the following arcane discoveries instead: alchemical affinity, beyond morality, feral speech, idealize, multimorph, werewolf shape. The master metamorph treats his level as his wizard level for the purpose of qualifying for arcane discoveries.
If the master metamorph chooses the multimorph or werewolf shape discovery, they affect his metamutagen as if it were a spell or extract. If using multimorph, the master metamorph must expend 10 minutes of the metamutagen’s duration as a standard action to assume another form allowed by the metamutagen.
Precise Metamorphosis (Su): At 3rd level, a master metamorph gains unique control over his shapechanging abilities and can use his metamutagens or a transmutation extracts to assume the form of specific individuals. This ability replaces poison use.
Amoral Aspect (Ex): At 7th level, a master metamorph can use transmutation extracts of an alignment opposite to his own.
A Thousand Faces (Su): At 13th level, a master metamorph gains the ability to change his appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell, but only while in his normal form. This ability and true shapechanger replace grand discovery.
True Shapechanger (Su): At 20th level, a master metamorph becomes a true master of shapechanging. He gains the shapechanger subtype and becomes proficient with any natural weapon or manufactured weapon that his current assumed form can use. Also, when the master metamorph uses his metamutagen, he radiates an aura identical to the alignment of the assumed creature. His actual alignment is not changed, but spells like detect evil or detect good detect only the aura, not his actual alignment. For the duration of the metamutagen, effects influenced by his alignment function according to the imposed aura, not his actual aura. When the metamutagen ends, the master metamorph’s aura returns to normal, and alignment-affecting magic affects him according to its actual alignment. For example, if he takes the form of a glabrezu, he would be detected as having a chaotic evil alignment.
In addition, when the master metamorph imbibes a metamutagen, he gains all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the form he chooses, as described in the monster’s description. These abilities last as long as the metamutagen remains in effect.
Discoveries: The following discoveries complement the Master Metamorph multiclass archetype: chameleon, eternal potion, extend potion, infuse mutagen, feral mutagen, rag doll mutagen, tentacle, vestigial arm, wings.
Table: Master Metamorph
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Extracts per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +2 +2 +0 Deceptive alchemy, metamutagen, shapechange school 1 — — — — —
2nd +1 +3 +3 +0 Discovery, precise metamorphosis 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +3 +1 Metamutagen, swift alchemy 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +4 +1 Discovery 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +4 +4 +1 Metamutagen 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +5 +5 +2 Discovery 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +5 +5 +2 Amoral aspect, metamutagen 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +6 +2 Discovery 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +6 +3 Metamutagen 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +7 +3 Discovery 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +7 +3 Metamutagen 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +8 +4 Discovery 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +8 +4 A thousand faces, metamutagen 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +9 +9 +4 Discovery, persistent mutagen 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +9 +5 Metamutagen 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Discovery 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Metamutagen 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Discovery, instant alchemy 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Metamutagen 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 True shapechanger 5 5 5 5 5 5
The following new discoveries are restricted to the Master Metamorph multiclass archetype.
BATTLE MORPHING
You can change forms quickly during battle.
Prerequisites: Metamutagen class feature, Multimorph arcane discovery
Benefits: When your metamutagen is in effect, you can change forms as a swift action instead of a standard action. The duration cost of this form change remains the same.
Normal: You can change between forms as a standard action.
its says metamophist a few times, other than that, it looks much more reasonable.
[threadjack]
Christos and I have been discussing that the new product description for the Advanced Class Guide seems to have dispensed with the "hybrid" term, labeling the new content base classes.
And that if this is the case, and these ten new base classes have no caveats on mutliclassing with their "Parent" classes…. MCA fodder!!! So my Slayer/Investigator could yet be a slightly more real possibility… [/threadjack]
[threadjack]
Christos and I have been discussing that the new product description for the Advanced Class Guide seems to have dispensed with the "hybrid" term, labeling the new content base classes.And that if this is the case, and these ten new base classes have no caveats on mutliclassing with their "Parent" classes…. MCA fodder!!! So my Slayer/Investigator could yet be a slightly more real possibility… [/threadjack]
yeah not to mention...DIBS ON SLAYER/MONK AND SLAYER/RANGER.
its says metamophist a few times, other than that, it looks much more reasonable.
Fixed!
[threadjack]
Christos and I have been discussing that the new product description for the Advanced Class Guide seems to have dispensed with the "hybrid" term, labeling the new content base classes.And that if this is the case, and these ten new base classes have no caveats on mutliclassing with their "Parent" classes…. MCA fodder!!! So my Slayer/Investigator could yet be a slightly more real possibility… [/threadjack]
Looking forward to my rebuild of the Spell Thief, formerly a Rogue/Sorerer, now a Rogue/Arcanist. My rogue/Sorcerer has beend rebuilt and named the Blood Bandit. Just need to wait for the official rules for the arcanist. If they are going base classes, then great! Lots more to build.
What about letting the MM change his choices every now and then? Like a sorcerer unlearning a spell, or an inquisitor changing her least bonus teamwork feat.
The Dead Shaman as a shaman/oracle or shaman/witch... Mmm...
The only problem with that is that, unlike spells which have specific spell slots that can be tracked (if you lose a 3rd elvel spell, you need to choose a new 3rd level spell), there is no way to track what they are replacing the old effect with. You could end up by 20th level, having only 7th/8th/9th level spells effects for the metamutagen. But then again, all we wold need to do is specify that any spell that is cahnged must come from the same list. So if you chose treeshape (the 3rd level list), you'd have to replace it with either object shape I or alter self.
We could certainly allow that I think, essecially withh the restriction of having to choose from the same spell level list. Thoughts?
Something like this.
"Upon reaching 5th level, and every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and so on), a master metamorph can choose a new metamutagen spell in place of a spell he has already chosen. In effect, the master metamorph loses the spell in exchange for the new one. The new metamutagen spell must be chosen from the same list of spells as the old one. A master metamorph can only change one metamutagen spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the transmutation spell at the time he gains a new metamutagen spell for the level."
The Dead Shaman as a shaman/oracle or shaman/witch... Mmm...
Yes, definitely see a Dead Shaman rebuild in the future. I think a Shaman ORacle may be the way to go, but we need to wait for the official release.
# MASTER METAMORPH
Like the name change.
@Deceptive Alchemy
A +1/2 levels bonus to all uses of Bluff woulb be pretty big in my games. I realize that some GMs might force Bluff rolls to stay in character in a disguise, tough I feel that is coverered by the Disguise skill itself. I suggest "He also gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 his level on all Disguise checks and on Bluff checks to maintain his role when using a metamugaten. This ability modifies alchemy."
@Metamutagen: I think the "steal a metamutagen" angle adds an unnecessary complication. The few times it can genuinely be used don't outweigh the risk of some combo misuse.
@Shapechange Subschool: Since there are no choices built into this class feature, I think it would be better to quote the actual abilities instead of referencing.
@Discoveries:
Precise Metamorphosis and Amoral Aspect could be discoveries, which would add design space for more discoveries or new class features. Both of these open new roles to the master metamorph which are interesting, but perhaps not for everyone - I feel they should be add-on-options (discoveries).
Battle morphing seems a bit cheap if it applies at all times when you are using the metamutagen. I'd prefer more limited uses, perhaps by making it an infusion. But maybe it works out, discoveries do not come cheap. It could replace Precise Metamorphosis or Amoral Aspect as a class feature in itself, as this seems like something all master metamorphs would love to learn.
@Precise Metamorphosis (Su): As written, this does not apply to A Thousand Faces. I think it should.
[threadjack]
...these ten new base classes have no caveats on mutliclassing with their "Parent" classes…. MCA fodder!!!... [/threadjack]
I think it would be wise to wait until those new base classes are actually released, as I have a feeling some of them are getting rather extensive modifications from what was published in the last playtest document. Which of course does not prevent anyone from writing such an MCA, then wait until the book is released and make any adjustments required then. But the group review phase should probably wait for the book.
"Panache" is shouting Cyrano all the way round... I think I'll convert my Boastful Gallant into a Swashbuckler/Bard or Bard/Swashbuckler rather than a cavalier!
Also, may I remind that I called dibbs on Shaman/Druid way ago... ^_^
# MASTER METAMORPH
Like the name change.
@Deceptive Alchemy
A +1/2 levels bonus to all uses of Bluff woulb be pretty big in my games. I realize that some GMs might force Bluff rolls to stay in character in a disguise, tough I feel that is coverered by the Disguise skill itself. I suggest "He also gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 his level on all Disguise checks and on Bluff checks to maintain his role when using a metamugaten. This ability modifies alchemy."
I like that change. I see Disguise as more of a thing here than Bluff.
@Metamutagen: I think the "steal a metamutagen" angle adds an unnecessary complication. The few times it can genuinely be used don't outweigh the risk of some combo misuse.
That's exactly word for word from the Mutagen description. As this is still a mutagen, I think it needs to stay, though, as this is functioning otherwise as a normal mutagen (except for the changes), then we shouldn't need to include it.
@Shapechange Subschool: Since there are no choices built into this class feature, I think it would be better to quote the actual abilities instead of referencing.
I changed this to Trained Metamorph, then list the three school abilities, and added them to the table too.
@Discoveries:
Precise Metamorphosis and Amoral Aspect could be discoveries, which would add design space for more discoveries or new class features. Both of these open new roles to the master metamorph which are interesting, but perhaps not for everyone - I feel they should be add-on-options (discoveries).Battle morphing seems a bit cheap if it applies at all times when you are using the metamutagen. I'd prefer more limited uses, perhaps by making it an infusion. But maybe it works out, discoveries do not come cheap. It could replace Precise Metamorphosis or Amoral Aspect as a class feature in itself, as this seems like something all master metamorphs would love to learn.
What do you think Bardess? Starfox has a point. Is there something else you had in your concept you wanted to add but didn't have room to do so? We could swap out swift Poisoning for a Swift Morph ability (aka Battle Morph discovery) as he suggests above, and make these discoveries?on the other hand, I'm also OK with what we have.
EDIT: If anything, I think we should leave Precise Metamorphosis where it is, keep Battle Morphing as a discovery, and make Amoral Aspect as a discovery, not everyone will want the alignment thing, and the battle morphing ability needs to be a choice, as it is hinged on choosing the Multimorph arcane discovery. So that would leave swift poisoning open for a new ability.
@Precise Metamorphosis (Su): As written, this does not apply to A Thousand Faces. I think it should.
Fixed that.
I can certainly see a few rebuilds on the horizon should these classes be accepted into the MCA forums.
Perhaps we should start up a second forum linked to this dedicated to reworking old MCA's when the classes are live? it'd cause less clutter on this thread for sure.
Also, on the topic of calling dibs;
Slayer/Inquisitor for sure, and perhaps alchemist/swashbuckler~
EDIT: Also, on the topic of separate threads, perhaps we should prototype these new class MCA's in a different thread before we introduce them into the main MCA wiki? Just as a balance precaution
Once we have the official release, I'm all for creating MCAs using them, though, a you said, I think a separate thread will be necessary.
So what's the protocol on making these new classes into MCAs? from first glance they seem to be MCAs already. I'm guessing it'd have to take a careful approach?
And I'm guessing like Rogue/Ninja, Paladin/Antipaladin and Cavalier/Samurai, we can't mix in a class that already makes it?
Now, I'm kinda new here, but I think in order to maintain balance in these new classes without affecting their status quo, when making an MCA including them we should avoid;
1) Mixing these new classes together (that's like 4 classes packed into one)
2) Using a class that is part of it's function (Investigator cannot be combined with alchemist or rogue (and ninja too, maybe?))
3) Only changing a select few features of the class, rather than dismantling the class as a whole. (one or two features change, any more and it might as well be using the classes we have already)
So, what do you guys think? It's a toughie for sure.
So what's the protocol on making these new classes into MCAs? from first glance they seem to be MCAs already. I'm guessing it'd have to take a careful approach?
And I'm guessing like Rogue/Ninja, Paladin/Antipaladin and Cavalier/Samurai, we can't mix in a class that already makes it?
The protocol is the same as the current MCAs. While they were hybrids originally, they are now refering them to base classes, and will ikely undergo enough change to make them their own entities.
Correct on the Alternate class mash ups! But none of them are alternate classes, they all seem to be new base classes now, so we can mash any classes with it, each other.
Now, I'm kinda new here, but I think in order to maintain balance in these new classes without affecting their status quo, when making an MCA including them we should avoid;
1) Mixing these new classes together (that's like 4 classes packed into one)
2) Using a class that is part of it's function (Investigator cannot be combined with alchemist or rogue (and ninja too, maybe?))
3) Only changing a select few features of the class, rather than dismantling the class as a whole. (one or two features change, any more and it might as well be using the classes we have already)So, what do you guys think? It's a toughie for sure.
1) As base classes, even if say the Investigator is mashed with the Rogue or Alchemist, there will be enough difference to crete something new. I don't see an issue, but like the current MCAs, they need to be taken on a MCA by MCA basis. certain ones may not msh well swith others, but we've been able to do Fighter/Magus or Magus/Fighter without too many issues. Just becaus they are new, I personally will not change my approach on how to mash them into MCAs with other classes.
2) Again, I see no issue in general. But we'll see once they are actually released.
3) In general, the MCA process is supposed to just alter some or up to 1/2 he class features of one class in favor of those from another. However, we do dismantle and rebuild to create current MCAs. Again, the process is likely to remain unchanged.
Truthfully, I'm just waiting until we actually see what we get as the official rules for them before I start worrying about thiem. This thread is for the Core/Base MCAs and that's what I tend to focus on until we have concrete rules to work with. Until then, its only speculation and conjecture.
@Master Metamorph
Any comments on the current MCA, especially with making Amoral Aspect a discovery and coming up with something else to replace swift poisoning?
Swift poisoner swap...something to add in the creation of potions of polymorph spells perhaps?
Swift poisoner swap...something to add in the creation of potions of polymorph spells perhaps?
Maybe reducing the cost and time for making transmtation potions by 5% per 3 levels up to 25%; 5% @6th up to 25% @18th? OR a "spontaneous extracts" ability, able to change any extract into a transmutation extract that he knows of the same level?
I think the latter is more fitting. Perhaps calling it Spontanoues Transmutations?
Like this?
Spontaneous Extracts: At 6th level, a master metamorph can channel stored arcane energy into transmutation extracts that he hasn't prepared ahead of time. He can “lose” a prepared extract in order to create any transmutation extract of the same level or lower. This ability replaces swift poisoning.
Seems to work.
I think it would be wise to wait until those new base classes are actually released, as I have a feeling some of them are getting rather extensive modifications from what was published in the last playtest document. Which of course does not prevent anyone from writing such an MCA, then wait until the book is released and make any adjustments required then. But the group review phase should probably wait for the book.[threadjack]
...these ten new base classes have no caveats on mutliclassing with their "Parent" classes…. MCA fodder!!!... [/threadjack]
Note I'm not advocating creating any Playtest ACG MCAs now. As I said in December last year, let's wait until the book comes out.
I can certainly see a few rebuilds on the horizon should these classes be accepted into the MCA forums.
Perhaps we should start up a second forum linked to this dedicated to reworking old MCA's when the classes are live? it'd cause less clutter on this thread for sure.
I am opposed to splitting the working space. If you want to rework a concept, regardless if it has been done before as an MCA with base or Core classes or not, using the upcoming ACG's new Base "hybrids" then this is the place to do it.
Really it's up to Elghinn - as he is the final arbiter of each MCA's completion level before moving onto the next, he can decide how much overview he needs. Seeing as you'll need to bring each MCA here anyway for finalisation I say again this is he place to do it. Otherwise you'll get people bringing up issues you have "resolved" in another thread...
Also, on the topic of calling dibs;
Slayer/Inquisitor for sure, and perhaps alchemist/swashbuckler~
The alchemist/swashbuckler is definitely intriguing. As for the Slayer/Inquisitor HERE is my post calling that combination from December last year. By all means go for it if my concept doesn't match yours...
EDIT: Also, on the topic of separate threads, perhaps we should prototype these new class MCA's in a different thread before we introduce them into the main MCA wiki? Just as a balance precaution
Again, I'm opposed to this. Lindley Court tried somehing similar with little success - it spread my attention too far frankly. If I want to check on MCA stuff then I don't want to have to check on a bunch of threads. But I can't stop you... ;)
Like the idea of spontaneous transmutation extracts.
Hmmm... swashbuckler/cavalier? (Zorro anyone?) Hope to see a mounted swashbuckler in the upcoming books however...
Agree with 'Wolf about not splitting the workspace; much easier to follow one tread.
About the ACG classes, the one I am most interested in is the Swashbuckler. I feel it is funny how the swashbuckler did not make the duelist obsolete. Both a panache fighter and a guile fighter makes sense in the swashbuckler tradition and in Pathfinder.
I have been working on converting prestige classes into 20 level archetypes much like the MCAs. The Duelist is by far the most interesting, and IMO deserves full class treatment. I've been thinking of working on some serious 16th century themed stuff for Pathfinder.
"If it is not baroque, it is boring."