Multiclass Archetypes VII: MCAs Forever


Homebrew

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# Saint of Sinners

@ Sneak Channel/Channel energy

The problem with having different dice pools for sneak channel and channel energy is one of mechanics. You have to have certain channeling dice that only apply to sneak channel. It is inelegant and makes a mess of the table. Also, IMO 10d6 sneak channel with no saving throw is a bit too much compared to the rogue's sneak attack. Having 7d6 for both channel energy and sneak channel, with regular channeling allowing a save, IMO feels better on all levels.

10d6 sneak channel with save has the same average as 7d6 sneak attack without a save when the change to save is 60%. If the chance to save is less, the 10d6 with save version is better. As this is a pretty difficult save (based on 1/2 level), 10d6 sneak channel with save is likely to be slightly better than 7d6 without save. But not having a save will feel liberating for the saint', when you get your treasured sneak channel hit, at least its not saved against.

Invocations get slightly less powerful with 7d6 channeling compared to 10d6, as their effects are based on the number of dice of channeling.

One possible way to have differentiated sneak channel / channel energy damage is to simply say that you ignore the first three dice of sneak channel when you calculate channel energy damage. Again inelegant, and also strictly less powerful as you get it later.

Then it it the matter of whether sneak channel should take up uses of channel energy. I am staunchly opposed, the saint' already has a limited resource in spells and sneak attack is an unlimited resource. If we're to have daily uses, I could see it working similarly to lay on hands; an escalating number of daily uses and then have channel energy cost two uses, like it does for the paladin. I'd set the base number to be equal to the normal channel energy, so 6 + 1/2 level + Cha mod. Remember that each sneak channel attack uses this once, and you can make several in one round.


I am decidedly unhappy with this version. It lacks elegance, and I've learned that elegance often indicates a good design. Clutter and convoluted mechanics are not good. It should work, and takes most concerns into account.

A symptom of this unhappiness is that I cannot decide if I want domain or not, but at least that part is easy to change (just remove the domain ability and its swaps).

This is a version of the Saint of Sinners that does 3d6 less damage with channel destruction (the new name of channel energy) than it does with sneak channel. It has 10 dice of sneak channel and 7 rogue talents (or 10 without the domain). Each use of channel destruction and each incantation costs twice as much to use as a sneak channel.

Saint of Sinners:

Class Abilities
A saint of sinners has all class abilities of the normal rogue, except as follows.

Class Skills
The saint of sinners may select three cleric skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The saint of sinners gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Saints of sinners are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the battle aspergillum<ref name"APG">From Advanced Players Guide.</ref>, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword.
They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Domain
A saint of sinners chooses one [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains domain] from the same list the cleric uses. A saint of sinners domain influences what magic he can perform and how others see him. A saint of sinners can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the saint of sinners, as well as a number of bonus spells. Bonus spells are added to the saint of sinners spell list at level one and to and known spells as soon as he can cast them. A saint of sinners does not have any domain spell slots, domain spells are simply added to the list of known spells and are cast like any other known spell.

A saint of sinners gains the listed powers from him domain, if he is of a high enough level. Saint of sinner levels count as cleric levels for domain powers. Unless otherwise noted, activating a domain power is a standard action.

This replaces the rogue talents gained at level 2, 4, and 14.

Thiefs Prayer (Ex)
The the saint of sinners spells do not break Stealth. He can use material components, foci, gestures, and speech quietly and discreetly to cast spells while in Stealth. All other restrictions on using components still apply. The effect of a spell still attracts attention as normal, and casting an attack spell means the saint of sinners is automatically spotted. When a saint of sinners uses a cause wounds spell, against a target that is flanked or denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, that target receives no saving throw to halve the damage. This applies to [/i]cause light wounds, cause moderate wounds, cause serious wounds[/i], and [/i]cause critical wounds[/i].

Sneak Channel
At 1st level, when a saint of sinners hits an opponent in a vulnerable position, she can channel energy into the attack. Sneak channel works with ranged attacks, but only to a range of 30 ft. If the saint of sinners hits a living or undead creature whom he flanks or who is denied its Dexterity bonus to armor class against her, she can channel a lethal mix of positive and negative energy that harms both undead and living creatures. This has no effect against creatures that are neither living or dead, such as constructs. The additional damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. Using sneak channel is a free action that can be done with each attack. Against improved uncanny dodge, sneak channel works the same way as sneak attack.

A saint of sinners can only use sneak channel a limited number of times per day. Each day a saint of sinners can make a number of sneak channel attacks equal to 6 + half class level + Charisma bonus. The saint of sinners decided to use this ability after a hit is scored but before normal damage is rolled.

The amount of damage dealt is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every tow saint of sinners levels beyond first (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Sneak channel is a variant of channel energy and works with channeling feats that enhance damage and cause harm. There is no save against the damage, but if there are any side effects, such as from a channeling feat or master sneak channel, there is a saving throw to avoid these riders with a DC of 10 + half the saint of sinners level + the saint of sinners Charisma modifier.

This replaces sneak attack.

Orisons
Saints of sinners learn a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. These spells are cast like any other spell (see spells below), but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.

Divine Disable (Su)
At second level a saint of sinners learns how to use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Spells
A saint of sinners casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell list. She can cast any spell she knows at any time without preparing it ahead of time, assuming she has not yet used up her allotment of spells per day for the spells level. A saint of sinners only casts spells up to level 4, cleric spells of level 5 and up are not on the saint of sinners spell list.

To learn or cast a spell, a saint of sinners must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a saint of sinners spell is 10 + the spell level + the saint of sinners Charisma modifier.

A saint of sinners can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level each day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Saint of Sinners. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Saint of Sinners indicates that the saint of sinners gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level.

A saint of sinners selection of spells is extremely limited. At level 4, a saint of sinners learns two 1st-level spells of the saint of sinners choice. At each new saint of sinners level, she gains one or more new spells as indicated on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a saint of sinners knows is not affected by her Charisma score. The numbers on Table: Saint of Sinners are fixed.)

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every third saint of sinners level thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, and so on), a saint of sinners can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the saint of sinners “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spells level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. Even orisons can be exchanged this way. The saint of sinners may swap out only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

This replaces trapfinding, trap sense, and one skill point per level.

Channel Destruction (Su)
Channel destruction is an ability gained at 7th level. It is a variant of channel energy and works with channeling feats that cause harm or damage, and with Selective Channel. Channel destruction causes a burst that affects all creatures in a 30-foot radius centered on the saint of sinners, and there is a will save for half damage, DC 10 + 1/2 the saint of sinners level + the saint of sinners Charisma modifier, and this save also determines if the target suffers any side effects, such as that from channeling feats. Channel destruction is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Each use consumes two daily uses of sneak channel. A saint of sinners does not harm herself with this ability. The damage is three dice less than the damage of sneak channel. [/i]At 9th level, a saint of sinners causes 5d6 damage with sneak channel. Channel destruction causes three dice less damage, 2d6 in this case.[/i]

This replaces one skill point/level.

Invocations (Su)
A saint of sinners can learn invocations from 8th level onwards. These are alternate ways to channel destruction, and replaces the normal damage from channel destruction with an effect in the area around the saint of sinners. Each use of an invocation uses two of the saint of sinners daily uses of sneak channel, like channel destruction does. Unless otherwise stated, an invocation affects the area within 30 ft. of the saint of sinners, moves along with him, and has a duration of one minute for each die of damage channel destruction would have inflicted. Invocations are subtle, there is no flashy side effect to give away that they are being used.

Invocations are learned as rogue talents that only the saint of sinner can use.

Invocation of Distraction: The saint of sinners distracts allows him and all allies in the area to use Stealth to hide in as if they had concealment and a distraction to hide, and they all get an immediate free Stealth roll to hide. The Stealth roll is an immediate action and the concealment only lasts for one round.

Invocation of Revelation: The saint of sinners can clearly see in the area covered by his channel regardless of concealment and light level, and gains a bonus on Perception checks against anything in this area equal to the number of dice of damage his channeling would normally do.

Invocation of Shadow: The area around the saint of sinners becomes subtly obfuscating. Creatures can use Stealth to hide in the area as if they had concealment. If the saint of sinners moves away from a hidden creature, that creature retains the advantage of this invocation until the end of its next turn - it must end its turn back in the area or in regular cover or concealment if it wishes to remain in hiding.

Invocation of the Gang: As long as they move together as a group, the saint of sinners and a group of companion who must all remain within the area of channeling can use Stealth together, and only the saint of sinners need to make a Stealth check, which is then applied to each member of the group. To use this invocation in combat, the saint of sinners and any companions that are to benefit from it must delay actions so that they all act on the same initiative.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
This is the same a s the rogue ability of the same name, except the saint of sinners gains the ability at level 14.

Master Sneak Channel (Su)
Upon reaching 20th level, a saint of sinners becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak channel damage. Each time the saint of sinners deals sneak channel damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:

The target can be...

* put to sleep for 1d4 hours
* paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
* slain

Regardless of the effect chosen, a target that passes its Will save negates the additional effect. Once a creature has been the target of a master sneak channel, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that saint of sinners master sneak channel for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak channel damage are also immune to this ability, and this only works with sneak channel, not with channel energy. Master sneak channel replaces master strike.

Table: Saint of Sinners:

able: Saint of Sinners
Class
Level Base Attack
Bonus Fort
Save Ref
Save Will
Save Special Spells per Day
1 2 3 4
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Domain, orisons, sneak channel 1d6, thief's prayer — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 divine disable, evasion — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Sneak channel 2d6 — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 uncanny dodge 0 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Sneak channel 3d6 1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Rogue talent 1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Channel destruction, sneak channel 4d6 1 0 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Incantation, rogue talent 1 1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Sneak channel 5d6 2 1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent 2 1 0 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Sneak channel 6d6 2 1 1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Rogue talent 2 2 1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Sneak channel 7d6 3 2 1 0
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Improved uncanny dodge 3 2 1 1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Sneak channel 8d6 3 2 2 1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent 3 3 2 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Sneak channel 9d6 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Rogue talent 4 3 2 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Sneak channel 10d6 4 3 3 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master sneak channel 4 4 3 3


Channel Harm is probably better name than Channel Destruction - Destruction to me implies it causes environmental damage, which it decidedly does not.


Just a thought but could a delayed domain with a less than full cleric level leave room for ranged legderdemain. So they would gain their 1st domain power at 4th with an effective cleric level of their level minus 3 and ranged legderdemain uses a use of channel.


Not sure about the domain thing, or wether ranged legerdemain fit here, or if Starfox wants it.

I need to take a look at the current version's swaps. The whole 6 + 1/2 level + Cha modifier for Sneak Channel is wierd, since you've reference "convoluted mechanics" Starfox. 1/2 level + Cha is the way you should go, then cost two uses to use channel harm.

And nitpicking to a point of swapping 1 skill point? That's simply a part of the base mashup of two classes into an MCA. With everything you want in this MCA, I'm starting to feel you'd be better served with creating a new base class. Although the MCA process isn't concrete, there is a certain technique to it that this MCa is strating to break with all the convoluted swaps.

Let me take a look at it and I'll get back to you.


I honestly lost track of the exact swaps along the way.


There's a difference between a defensive resource like Lay on Hands and an offensive one like sneak channel. In general, defenses are in more short supply and less effective than attacks. They have to be, or the game bogs down.Hence the "extra" sneak channels compared to lay on hands. The idea was that a sneak channel would cost half of what a channel energy costs. I began with the same number of channel energy the MCA had before (with the Cha bonus halved), then added a level bonus.

I still think the old method of free sneak channels is preferable.

Edit

I tried going back to basics on this. Ignoring for the moment the change from sneak attack to sneak channel (that is, we stay with sneak attack), what are the swaps. It works out to be really simple.

* 1 skill point, trapfinding, trap sense -> spells
* 1 skill point remaining for channel energy.

I think we all agree that one skill point for channel energy is too little, so there has to be a tradeoff in lowering the efficiency of sneak attack. My original writeup did this in the manner of changing sneak attack for sneak channel, which is virtually identical but allows a save for half damage and not making it affect constructs . The lower damage is equivalent to lowering sneak attack by 3-4 dice. Is that worth a limited channel ability? Limiting channeling to harm only as I did in my last writeup IMO makes it about half as potent, channel energy is good healing but lousy damage. This makes the swap work out to my mind. [10d10 channel harm = 5d6 channel energy = skill point (2) + lessened sneak attack (3)] My balance argument ends up at the same spot and I'm back were I started the argument, I just expressed it in new terms.

But I don't really feel we're having a debate here. I don't see much arguing points or attempts to refute my points, I just see us stating opinions. I am starting to think we just cannot agree on this MCA. Maybe its better to just move on.


This has been a tough MCA to try and create with both balance and inclusion of desired abilities. I think I've figured out how to do it so we are all happy. (I think).

SWAPS
Sneak attack = Sneak channel
Trapfinding = Thief’s prayer + Divine disable
Trap sense/Rogue Talent = Domain/Inquisition
Rogue talents (3) = Half casting
Reduced Skills to 4 + Int (not 6 + Int) = Divergent Channeling

SAINT OF SINNERS:

The saint of sinners is a vision of vice. She might not even know who her patron is, but she is in touch with some higher being and this fills her with holy purpose. Or maybe it is a lower being and unholy purpose - that point is not at all clear, even to the saint of sinners herself.

Primary Class: Rogue.
Secondary Class: Cleric.
Alignment: Any. Most saints of sinners think of themselves as good, but this is often a self-indulgent illusion.
Hit Die: d8.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The saint of sinners may select three cleric skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The saint of sinners gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Lowered this to 4 to allow for Divergent Channeling. We've done it in the past but not mentioned directly in the abilities that its part of the swap.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The saint of sinners is proficient with all simple weapons, the battle aspergillum, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. She is also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Divine Disable (Ex): At 2nd level, a saint of sinners can use Disable Device to disarm magical traps. This ability and sinner’s prayer replace trapfinding.

Orisons: A saint of sinners learns a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. These spells are cast like any other spell (see spellcasting below), but they do not consume any slots and may be used again. This ability and spells replace the rogue talents gained at 4th, 10th, and 16th level.

Sneak Channel (Su): Regardless of alignment, if a saint of sinners can catch a living or undead opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can channel the power of her faith through her attacks to strike a vital spot for extra damage. This energy results directly from divine power and damages both living and undead as if she had simultaneously channeled positive and negative energy.

The saint of sinners' attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the saint of sinner flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two saint of sinner levels thereafter. Should the saint of sinner score a critical hit with a sneak channel, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak channel only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a saint of sinner can still make a sneak channel attack, though the weapon deals nonlethal damage as normal.

The saint of sinner must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A saint of sinner cannot sneak channel while striking a creature with concealment.

There is no save against the damage of sneak channel, but if there are any side effects, such as from a channeling feat or master sneak channel, the target can make a saving throw (DC of 10 + 1/2 the saint of sinners + her Charisma modifier) to avoid these additional effects. This ability replaces sneak attack.

Essentially sneak attack, but deals channel energy damage, but directly to a single target. No save, and can only affect living or undead according to channel energy rules. So not elementals, outsoders. etc, and would need the necessary channeling feats to do so.

Thief’s Prayer (Ex): At 1st level, as a swift action, a saint of sinners can all upon her deity to grant her the ability to cast her spells unnoticed. When using Stealth, a saint of sinners can use material components, foci, gestures, and speech quietly and discreetly when casting her spells. All other restrictions on using spell components still apply. The effects of a spell still attracts attention as normal, and casting a spell that requires an attack roll or deals damage is automatically spotted. In addition, whenever a saint of sinners casts an “inflict” spell while her prayer is in effect, the target takes a penalty equal to 1/2 the saint of sinners’ level when saving for half damage. These effects last for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.

Here's one of the balancers I've put in place, allowing us to keep the 10d6 sneack channel, and the channel energy effect. This now has limited uses but remains for a number of rounds = to Cha modifier. Perhaps rounds = 1/2 level might also work. Toughts? Anyways, its this "prayer" that powers her Channel energy now, akin to the paladin's LoH and CPO abilities.

Domain (or Inquisition): At 2nd level, a saint of sinner’s gains the cleric’s domain ability. Although not as tied to the tenets of the deity as a cleric, a saint of sinners must still hold such guidelines in high regard, despite that fact she can go against them if it serves the greater good of the faith. A saint of sinners can select one domain from among those belonging to her deity. She can select an alignment domain only if her alignment matches that domain. With the GM’s approval, a saint of sinners can be devoted to an ideal instead of a deity, selecting one domain to represent her personal inclination and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain grants a number of domain powers, depending on the level of the saint of sinners. A saint of sinners does not gain the bonus spells listed for each domain, nor does she gain bonus spell slots. The saint of sinners uses her level as her effective cleric level when determining the power and effect of her domain powers.

Alternatively, a saint of sinners can choose one of the following inquisitions instead of a domain: Conversion, Damnation, Excommunication, Heresy, Redemption, Sin, Truth, and Zeal. This ability replaces sneak attack 2d6, 5d6, and 8d6.

No domain spells, and included flavorful inquisition choices too.

Divergent Channeling (Su): At 4th level, a saint of sinners gains the supernatural ability to channel energy like a cleric. However, like her sneak channel, this energy deals damage to both living and undead. It does not have any healing effect on creatures, living or undead. Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the saint of sinners’ level + the saint of sinners' Charisma modifier. Using this ability consumes two uses of her thief’s prayer ability. A saint of sinners’ effective cleric level when channeling energy is equal to her level –3. This is a Charisma-based ability. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 2nd level.

Requires 2 uses of Thief's Prayer to use, but gives the option to affect masses but with a save to damage. Here I have that it's cleric level is equal to level -3. As this is similar to a Paladin's ability, are we safe to go 10d6 with these, with the use cost, even though it does harm both living and undead, but wothout any healing effects? If so, then we can made it equal to level instead of level -3.

Rogue Talents: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that the saint of sinners gains a rogue talent at 4th, 6th, 10th, 12th, 16th, and 18th level. In addition, a saint of sinners can choose an invocation in place of a rogue talent.

Spellcasting: Beginning at 4th level, a saint of sinners gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells drawn from the saint of sinners spell list. To learn or cast a spell, a saint of sinners must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. She can cast spells she knows without preparing it ahead of time. The saving throw DC against a saint of sinners’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the saint of sinners’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a saint of sinners can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Saint of Sinners. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score. The saint of sinners does not need to prepare these spells in advance; she can cast them at any time, assuming she hasn’t yet used up her spells per day for that level.

The saint of sinners’s selection of spells is limited. At 4th level, a saint of sinners knows two 1st-level spells of the saint of sinners’s choice at 4th level. A saint of sinners gains more spells as she increases in level, as indicated on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a saint of sinners knows is not affected by his Charisma score, but it’s affected by the bonus bloodline spells he gains). A saint of sinners’ caster level (including orisons) is equal to her saint of sinners level –3. This ability replaces the rogue talents gained at 4th, 10th, and 16th level.

I think we need to create a good narrowed focus Saint of Sinners spell list instead of jsut the cleric list, and include some other spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list to make it more rogue-y.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that saint of sinners gains this ability at 8th level.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that saint of sinners gains this ability at 14th level.

Master Sneak Channel (Su): At 20th level, a saint of sinners becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak channel damage. Each time the saint of sinners deals sneak channel damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:

The target can be...
• put to sleep for 1d4 hours
• paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
• slain

Regardless of the effect chosen, a target that passes its Will save negates the additional effect. Once a creature has been the target of a master sneak channel, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that saint of sinners master sneak channel for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak channel damage are also immune to this ability, and this only works with sneak channel, not with channel energy. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces master strike.

Table: Saint of Sinners
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th

1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Divine disable, orisons, sneak channel +1d6, — — — —
thief’s prayer
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Domain, evasion — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Sneak channel +2d6 — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Divergent channeling, rogue talent 1 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Sneak channel +3d6 1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Rogue talent 1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Sneak channel +4d6 1 1 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Uncanny dodge 1 1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Sneak channel +5d6 2 1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent 2 1 1 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Sneak channel +6d6 2 1 1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Rogue talent 2 2 1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Sneak channel +7d6 3 2 1 1
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Improved uncanny dodge 3 2 1 1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Sneak channel +8d6 3 2 2 1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent 3 3 2 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Sneak channel +9d6 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Rogue talent 4 3 2 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Sneak channel +10d6 4 3 3 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master sneak channel 4 4 3 3

NEW TALENTS:

The following talents can be selected by any class with the rogue talent class feature.

Invocations (Su): A rogue with this talent learns one invocation. An invocation creates and alternate effect in the area around the rogue when using the channel energy class feature. Invocations are subtle, much like a rogue, and exhibit not outward sign of being used. Each use of an invocation expends one of the rogue’s daily uses of channel energy. Unless otherwise noted, an invocation affects the area within 30 feet of the rogue, moves with her, and has a duration of one minute for each die of damage that the channel energy effect would normally deal.
The rogue gains one of the following invocations of her choice.

• Invocation of Distraction: The rogue’s distractions allow her and any ally within 30 feet to make a Stealth skill check as if they had concealment and received a distraction to hide. This skill check is made as an immediate action, and the concealment and distraction benefit only last for one round.

• Invocation of Revelation: The rogue can clearly see in the area covered by his channel regardless of light level and gains a bonus on Perception checks made while within this area equal to the number of her channel energy damage dice. This effect lasts for one round.

• Invocation of Shadow: Lighting in the area around the rogue becomes subtly blurry. Creatures can use Stealth to hide in the area as if they had concealment. If the rogue moves away from a hidden creature, that creature retains the advantage of this invocation until the end of its next turn– it must end its turn in regular cover or concealment if it wishes to remain hidden.

• Invocation of the Gang: As long as the rogue and his allies move together as a group within the area of the channel energy effect, the saint of sinners can make a Stealth check as a swift action. If the check is successful, the saint of sinners applies her Stealth to all allies within the area. To use this invocation in combat, the saint of sinners and any allies within the area must delay their actions so that they can all act on the same initiative.

This talent can be taken multiple times. Each time it is chosen, she learns a different invocation. A rogue must have the channel energy class feature and to select this talent.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

This has been a tough MCA to try and create with both balance and inclusion of desired abilities. I think I've figured out how to do it so we are all happy. (I think).

SWAPS
Sneak attack = Sneak channel
Trapfinding = Thief’s prayer + Divine disable
Trap sense/Rogue Talent = Domain/Inquisition
Rogue talents (3) = Half casting
Reduced Skills to 4 + Int (not 6 + Int) = Divergent Channeling

** spoiler omitted **...

I think its starting to look good.


This, I feel, is on the edge of how far we can stretch swaps to get these abilities, but I think it's generally fair, especially with a unique spell list to help narrow and balance the focus.


I think I'll work up a spell list.

Also, here's a new domain I made too. I think it suits the Saint of Sinners, and my Heretic Priest MCAs.

NEW DOMAINS
Clerics that have Trickery as one of their deity’s domains can instead chose the new Infiltrator domain. Heretic priests and saint of sinners can select the Infiltrator domain, Stealth Domain, and the Trickery domain or any of its subdomains in place of one of her deity’s domains. The following new domain complements the Heretic Priest and Saint of Sinners multiclass archetype.

INFILTRATION DOMAIN:

Granted Powers: You are a master of infiltrating enemy sects and using unorthodox approaches to fulfill the edicts of your own faith.
Bluff, Disable Device, and Disguise are class skills.

Ranged Legerdemain (Su): You can use Disable Device and Sleight of Hand at a range of 30 feet. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and you cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less. You can only use this ability if you have at least 1 rank in the skill being used. You can use this power a number of times each day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Master of Deception (Su): You can deceive truth-detecting magic. Whenever a creature uses this sort of magic against you, you must succeed on a caster level check against a DC of 15 + the your cleric level to succeed (as if she were under the effect of a glibness spell); failure means the magic doesn’t detect your lies or forces you to speak only the truth. This ability does not give you the glibness spell’s bonus on Bluff checks. This ability can be used as an immediate action.

Domain Spells: 1st—disguise self, 2nd—undetectable alignment, 3rd—nondetection, 4th—geas (lesser), 5th—reprobation, 6th—legend lore, 7th—project image, 8th—euphoric tranquility, 9th—dominate monster.

Finally, at Lindley Court, your Synthesized Voice – Brd/Alc MCA will be up next once this one is done.


Nice.


That domain rocks all kinds of socks.
Trogdar has spoken!


Glad you like it. Figured it'd go well with the current Saint of Sinners and my Heretic Priest, which I will reveal at a later date. Wanted to let Starfox do his Rog/Clr MCA before I did mine, as he was first in line.

So what do people think of the most recent version of the Saint of Sinners? I think it strikes a good balance between all the abilities. Please read the blue comments I left and give your opinions so we can wrap this one up.


Ranged Legerdemain is obscenely powerful for first level and kills the one niche that the Arcane Trickster has. This makes Cleric1/Rogue1/Wizard18 the new Arcane Trickster... which is a big problem, in my books.

Second, we still have Orisons on this guy? No 4-level caster has orisons.


# Saint of Sinners

This is just observations, not proposed changes. These come in the next post. I am sorry I lost my temper earlier. The discussion had gone back and forth for a week with little result.

The language is now such that "deity" is mentioned a bunch of times. While I avoided that earlier to make the class more faith-neutral, this is strictly favor and I am ok with the writing as it is now.

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:


SWAPS
Sneak attack = Sneak channel
Trapfinding = Thief’s prayer + Divine disable
Trap sense/Rogue Talent = Domain/Inquisition
Rogue talents (3) = Half casting
Reduced Skills to 4 + Int (not 6 + Int) = Divergent Channeling

Just for completeness, where did the first 2 skill points (from 8 to 6) go? Ah, I suppose all 4 points went into divergent channeling.

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Essentially sneak attack, but deals channel energy damage, but directly to a single target. No save, and can only affect living or undead according to channel energy rules. So not elementals, outsoders. etc, and would need the necessary channeling feats to do so.

Both elementals and outsiders are living creature and thus affected, which doesn't really affect this argument. It is just a note. From Outsiders at d20.srd : "Unlike most living creatures, an outsider [...] An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.Elementals are specifically immune to precision damage and sneak attack, but as a subtype of outsider whose description does not mention living or not, I do think they are living. So it seams that sneak channel can harm elementals but not constructs, as opposed to sneak attack that can harm constructs but not elementals. No problem with this.

About divergent channeling: I never considered this a major ability of the MCA. It was a glue to make sneak channel and incantations fit together, and to give a daily limit of the incantations. I we can't agree to evaluate a destructive-only channel at half value, I feel its better to just cut down the damage to merely symbolic, as I did in my proposal below.


# Saint of Sinners

Proposed Changes

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:


SWAPS
Sneak attack = Sneak channel
Trapfinding = Thief’s prayer + Divine disable
Trap sense/Rogue Talent = Domain/Inquisition
Rogue talents (3) = Half casting
Reduced Skills to 4 + Int (not 6 + Int) = Divergent Channeling

I'd prefer to reduce the amount of divergent channeling by half (to a total of 4d6 or perhaps 5d6). This ability only really exists to power incantations, and is not vital like skill points are. That would increase skill points to 6. This is a pretty important change as skill points is vital to the MCA.

Divergent Channeling (Su): At 4th level, a saint of sinners gains the supernatural ability to channel energy like a cleric. However, like her sneak channel, this energy deals damage to both living and undead. It does not have any healing effect on creatures, living or undead. Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the saint of sinners’ level + the saint of sinners' Charisma modifier. Using this ability consumes two uses of her thief’s prayer ability. A saint of sinners’ divergent channeling ability inflicts half the damage of of sneak channel. This is a Charisma-based ability.

I would also like to see sneak channel going to 7d6 (from 10 d6) and restoring rogue talents to 10. This is more of a support character than the rogue, so damage potential is less important. This change is not that important; I the class can work without it.

I could also see domain go; without the domain spells I don't think it is very flavorful and not really worth the effort. Ans the extra damage on thief's prayer can go to; it is just flavor and pretty weak flavor.


Raiderrpg wrote:
Ranged Legerdemain is obscenely powerful for first level and kills the one niche that the Arcane Trickster has. This makes Cleric1/Rogue1/Wizard18 the new Arcane Trickster... which is a big problem, in my books.

I agree here, for a divine character ranged legerdemain is a level 6 or 8 ability. Also, I think this list should get Mage Hand as a 1st level spell - having ranged legerdemain without having mage hand is kind of silly. Its a tough swap to get a cantrip as a 1st level spell. OR mage hand could be the level 1 ability and ranged legerdemain the level 8 ability.


# Spellgun.
Have a question. Arcane Gun replaces cantrips (they get read and detect magic, but cast as 1st level spells), however when looking at spells per day, they have cantrips. Am I missing something?

Awesome work though btw!


strongblade wrote:

# Spellgun.

Have a question. Arcane Gun replaces cantrips (they get read and detect magic, but cast as 1st level spells), however when looking at spells per day, they have cantrips. Am I missing something?

Awesome work though btw!

Thanks! Glad you like what we've done.

It's just a mistake on the table. Fixed!


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
strongblade wrote:

# Spellgun.

Have a question. Arcane Gun replaces cantrips (they get read and detect magic, but cast as 1st level spells), however when looking at spells per day, they have cantrips. Am I missing something?

Awesome work though btw!

Thanks! Glad you like what we've done.

It's just a mistake on the table. Fixed!

Sweet!


A NEW CHALLENGER APPROACHES: Fell absolutely in love with what you guys are doin' and decided "Why the hell not try and break off a piece of this tasty, fun-looking, concept?". I mean I /have/ allready made more than afew characters using your MCAs. These Delicious MCAs....

I may be going crazy, but I saw a suggested Idea somewhere along the line, Samurai/Gunslinger. "Cowboy". I think I may have an idea for two on how to reel that in, if that's allright?


Taco Man wrote:

A NEW CHALLENGER APPROACHES: Fell absolutely in love with what you guys are doin' and decided "Why the hell not try and break off a piece of this tasty, fun-looking, concept?". I mean I /have/ allready made more than afew characters using your MCAs. These Delicious MCAs....

I may be going crazy, but I saw a suggested Idea somewhere along the line, Samurai/Gunslinger. "Cowboy". I think I may have an idea for two on how to reel that in, if that's allright?

The original idea was given by Desidero, but he missed is slot in the queue and haven't heard from him. If you want to take the Sam/Gun MCa idea and give your own a go, I'll put you in the queue and when it's your turn you can take a swing at it.

@Starfox: I'll be getting to your Saint of Sinners tonight, hopefully.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Taco Man wrote:

A NEW CHALLENGER APPROACHES: Fell absolutely in love with what you guys are doin' and decided "Why the hell not try and break off a piece of this tasty, fun-looking, concept?". I mean I /have/ allready made more than afew characters using your MCAs. These Delicious MCAs....

I may be going crazy, but I saw a suggested Idea somewhere along the line, Samurai/Gunslinger. "Cowboy". I think I may have an idea for two on how to reel that in, if that's allright?

The original idea was given by Desidero, but he missed is slot in the queue and haven't heard from him. If you want to take the Sam/Gun MCa idea and give your own a go, I'll put you in the queue and when it's your turn you can take a swing at it.

@Starfox: I'll be getting to your Saint of Sinners tonight, hopefully.

Awesome. I'll start working on it right away for when my little Queue slot is open! Should be simple, but flavourful, y'know?


@Taco Man - Welcome to the thread, and glad you've been enjoying the MCAs. I'd be interested in hearing which MCAs you have made, and (if they saw play) how they ran. We are always looking for constructive feedback as you know!!!

@El - as Taco Man is new, does he/she not slide in at the top of the queue? Also seeing as the Sam/Gun was going to have been done already… Maybe after Lindley Court?

Can we get a queue update? ;)


Yup, put her right after Lindley, as she's already been notified that she'll be next.

Queue Update
Synthesized Voice – Brd/Alc (Lindley Court)
“Name” – Sam/Gun (Taco Man)
Thaumaturge – Sum/Sor (Gadgeteer Smashwidget)
Rhythmic/Cacophany Blaster – Gun/Brd (Christos Gurd)
Old Wiki MCA (Fell Knight)
Totem Warrior – Ftr or Rgr/Drd (Kuojow)
Hivemind – Sum/Drd or Drd/Sum (Tyrannical)
Xenoswarmer/Xenocite Assailant – Gun/Alc (OSW)
“Name” – Clr/Mnk (Gypsy Rose)

And OSW, Taco MAn said he "made more than afew characters using your MCAs", not that he made his own MCAs. :D Also, I should get to you hopefully tonight with your emails to me. Hopefully.


@Elghinn Lightbringer - Thank you kindly.

@Oceanshieldwolf - So far? Only the Majutsu Samurai has actually seen 'real' play. And dear god the tasty tasty flavor I've made with this girl, She definitely does /not/ play nice. But in a good way, y'know? Having what amounts to Hex Strike as a free feat, applied to weapons, is an amazing little ability, especially on with a Jinx-Halfling build to guarantee an Eye on anyone dumb enough to let you close. Albeit I've also worked builds for quite afew others....


OK, this is the last version of this I'm working on. I think this is as close as we're going to get to what you want without breaking things. I also removed orisons to coincide with all the 1/2 casters.

The only change I would like to see is replacing the rogue talent at 20th level with a suitable ability to fill the dead 17th level ability slot. And I still need to create a spell list, and we can add whatever orisons you think are necessary to the 1st level list.

SWAPS
Sneak attack = Sneak channel
Trapfinding = Thief’s prayer + Divine disable
Trap sense = Divergent Channeling (spend 2 uses of sinner’s prayer)
Sneak attack (2d6/5d6/8d6) = Half casting

SAINT OF SINNERS:

The saint of sinners is a vision of vice. She might not even know who her patron is, but she is in touch with some higher being and this fills her with holy purpose. Or maybe it is a lower being and unholy purpose - that point is not at all clear, even to the saint of sinners herself.

Primary Class: Rogue.
Secondary Class: Cleric.
Alignment: Any. Most saints of sinners think of themselves as good, but this is often a self-indulgent illusion.
Hit Die: d8.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The saint of sinners may select three cleric skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The saint of sinners gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The saint of sinners is proficient with all simple weapons, the battle aspergillum, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. She is also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Divine Disable (Ex): At 2nd level, a saint of sinners can use Disable Device to disarm magical traps. This ability and sinner’s prayer replace trapfinding.

Sneak Channel (Su): Regardless of alignment, if a saint of sinners can catch a living or undead opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can channel the power of her faith through her attacks to strike a vital spot for extra damage. This energy results directly from divine power and damages both living and undead as if she had simultaneously channeled positive and negative energy. It has no effect on elementals or outsiders.

The saint of sinners' attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the saint of sinner flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 at 3rd, 7th, 9th, 13th, 15th, and 19th level, to a maximum of 7d6. Should the saint of sinner score a critical hit with a sneak channel, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak channel only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a saint of sinner can still make a sneak channel attack, though the weapon deals nonlethal damage as normal.

The saint of sinner must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A saint of sinner cannot sneak channel while striking a creature with concealment.
There is no save against the damage of sneak channel, but if there are any side effects, such as from a channeling feat or master sneak channel, the target can make a saving throw (DC of 10 + 1/2 the saint of sinners + her Charisma modifier) to avoid these additional effects. This ability replaces sneak attack.

Thief’s Prayer (Ex): At 1st level, as a swift action, a saint of sinners can all upon her deity to grant her the ability to cast her spells unnoticed. When using Stealth, a saint of sinners can use material components, foci, gestures, and speech quietly and discreetly when casting her spells. All other restrictions on using spell components still apply. The effects of a spell still attracts attention as normal, and casting a spell that requires an attack roll or deals damage is automatically spotted. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.

Spellcasting: Beginning at 4th level, a saint of sinners gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells drawn from the saint of sinners spell list. To learn or cast a spell, a saint of sinners must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. She can cast spells she knows without preparing it ahead of time. The saving throw DC against a saint of sinners’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the saint of sinners’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a saint of sinners can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Saint of Sinners. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score. The saint of sinners does not need to prepare these spells in advance; she can cast them at any time, assuming she hasn’t yet used up her spells per day for that level.

The saint of sinners’s selection of spells is limited. At 4th level, a saint of sinners knows two 1st-level spells of the saint of sinners’s choice at 4th level. A saint of sinners gains more spells as she increases in level, as indicated on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a saint of sinners knows is not affected by his Charisma score, but it’s affected by the bonus bloodline spells he gains). A saint of sinners’ caster level (including orisons) is equal to her saint of sinners level –3. This ability replaces the rogue talents gained at 4th, 10th, and 16th level.

Divergent Channeling (Su): At 5th level, a saint of sinners gains the supernatural ability to channel energy like a cleric. However, like her sneak channel, this energy deals damage to both living and undead, but has no effect on elementals or outsiders. It does not have any healing effect on creatures, living or undead. Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the saint of sinners’ level + the saint of sinners' Charisma modifier. Using this ability consumes two uses of her thief’s prayer ability. When channeling energy, a saint of sinners damage dice is always two less than her sneak channel damage dice (minimum 1d6). This is a Charisma-based ability. This ability replaces trap sense.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that saint of sinners gains this ability at 6th level.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that saint of sinners gains this ability at 11th level.

Master Sneak Channel (Su): At 20th level, a saint of sinners becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak channel damage. Each time the saint of sinners deals sneak channel damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:

The target can be...

• put to sleep for 1d4 hours
• paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
• slain

Regardless of the effect chosen, a target that passes its Will save negates the additional effect. Once a creature has been the target of a master sneak channel, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that saint of sinners master sneak channel for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak channel damage are also immune to this ability, and this only works with sneak channel, not with channel energy. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces master strike.

Table: Saint of Sinners
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th

1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Divine disable, orisons, sneak channel +1d6, — — — —
thief’s prayer
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, rogue talent — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Sneak channel +2d6 — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Rogue talent 1 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Divergent channeling 1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Rogue talent, uncanny dodge 1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Sneak channel +3d6 1 1 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Rogue talent 1 1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Sneak channel +4d6 2 1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent 2 1 1 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Improved uncanny dodge 2 1 1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Rogue talent 2 2 1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Sneak channel +5d6 3 2 1 1
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Rogue talent 3 2 1 1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Sneak channel +6d6 3 2 2 1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent 3 3 2 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Rogue talent 4 3 2 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Sneak channel +7d6 4 3 3 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master sneak channel, rogue talents 4 4 3 3


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Yup, put her right after Lindley, as she's already been notified that she'll be next.

Queue Update
Synthesized Voice – Brd/Alc (Lindley Court)
“Name” – Sam/Gun (Taco Man)
Thaumaturge – Sum/Sor (Gadgeteer Smashwidget)
Rhythmic/Cacophany Blaster – Gun/Brd (Christos Gurd)
Old Wiki MCA (Fell Knight)
Totem Warrior – Ftr or Rgr/Drd (Kuojow)
Hivemind – Sum/Drd or Drd/Sum (Tyrannical)
Xenoswarmer/Xenocite Assailant – Gun/Alc (OSW)
“Name” – Clr/Mnk (Gypsy Rose)

And OSW, Taco MAn said he "made more than afew characters using your MCAs", not that he made his own MCAs. :D Also, I should get to you hopefully tonight with your emails to me. Hopefully.

When am i up next? Ive got several druid types but probably go with the crow druid (druid rogue) atm


...Huh.... In all my excitement I seem to have churned out a first draft in less than two hours. How 'bout that....


Apraham Lincoln wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Yup, put her right after Lindley, as she's already been notified that she'll be next.

Queue Update
Synthesized Voice – Brd/Alc (Lindley Court)
“Name” – Sam/Gun (Taco Man)
Thaumaturge – Sum/Sor (Gadgeteer Smashwidget)
Rhythmic/Cacophany Blaster – Gun/Brd (Christos Gurd)
Old Wiki MCA (Fell Knight)
Totem Warrior – Ftr or Rgr/Drd (Kuojow)
Hivemind – Sum/Drd or Drd/Sum (Tyrannical)
Xenoswarmer/Xenocite Assailant – Gun/Alc (OSW)
“Name” – Clr/Mnk (Gypsy Rose)

And OSW, Taco MAn said he "made more than afew characters using your MCAs", not that he made his own MCAs. :D Also, I should get to you hopefully tonight with your emails to me. Hopefully.

When am i up next? Ive got several druid types but probably go with the crow druid (druid rogue) atm

You're 4 below Gypsy Rose.


Here's the

Saint of Sinners Spell List:

Saint of sinners gain access to the following spells.

1st-Level Saint of Sinners Spellsbane, bleed, bless, bungle, cause fear, command, compel hostility, comprehend languages, cultural adaptation, cure light wounds, deathwatch, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, disguise self, divine favor, doom, endure elements, entropic shield, find traps, forbid action, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, read magic, read magic, sanctuary, shield of faith, stabilize, vanish, ventriloquism, weapon wand.

2nd-Level Saint of Sinners Spellsaid, align weapon, arrow of law, augury, bear’s endurance, blessing of courage and life, blur, bull’s strength, compassionate ally, darkness, delay pain, delay poison, disguise other, dread bolt, eagle’s splendor, effortless armor, enemy’s heart, instrument of agony, invisibility, masterwork transformation, owl’s wisdom, resist energy, restoration (lesser), shield other, silence, spiritual weapon, status, undetectable alignment, zone of truth.

3rd-Level Saint of Sinners Spellsbadger’s ferocity, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, chain of perdition, create food and water, cure moderate wounds, daybreak arrow, daylight, deeper darkness, discovery torch, dispel magic, displacement, helping hand, inflict moderate wounds, invisibility purge, locate object, magical vestment, prayer, protection from energy, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse, searing light, stone shape, water breathing.

4th-Level Saint of Sinners Spellsaura of doom, blessing of fervor, chaos hammer, cure serious wounds, death ward, discern lies, dismissal, divine power, freedom of movement, healing thief, holy smite, inflict serious wounds, magic weapon (greater), neutralize poison, order’s wrath, poison, shadow step, spiritual ally, tongues, unholy blight.


With the amount of flavour I've taken from classical westerns, I feel like "Cowboy" Is jut flat out the only appropriate name for this bad boy.... Maybe a synonym for "Devoted" or "Resolute" Could be added, but other than that, seems to simply stick with that cheesy little moniker in m'head.


Taco Man wrote:
With the amount of flavour I've taken from classical westerns, I feel like "Cowboy" Is jut flat out the only appropriate name for this bad boy.... Maybe a synonym for "Devoted" or "Resolute" Could be added, but other than that, seems to simply stick with that cheesy little moniker in m'head.

Here's a few I came up with quickly, should they appeal to you.

Pistolero
Desperado
Wrangler
Bounty Hunter
Outlaw
Sheriff
Deputy


Taco Man wrote:
With the amount of flavour I've taken from classical westerns, I feel like "Cowboy" Is jut flat out the only appropriate name for this bad boy.... Maybe a synonym for "Devoted" or "Resolute" Could be added, but other than that, seems to simply stick with that cheesy little moniker in m'head.

I like the nod to the Samurai's historical honor code in Devoted and Resolute, and the Samurai ability Resolute. Devoted Cowboy sounds a little Brokeback Mountain or religious. Resolute Cowboy is definitely my favorite so far of names with Cowboy in it. Cowboy isn't working for me, but you can disregard that as my own bias. ;)

Interestingly - I came across THIS on a quick google search - all the synonyms for gunslinger are bad guys. What gives? I like Tyrannical's list, but none of them seem to pick up the Samurai side. If your flavor is more a Ronin Gunslinger, that'd be different...

Honorable/Resolute
Shootist/Fusilier/Cowboy/Gunslinger/Slinger


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:


And OSW, Taco MAn said he "made more than afew characters using your MCAs", not that he made his own MCAs. :D

Well, to be fair, I knew what Taco Man meant, and Taco Man seems to have understood that my reply understood what Taco Man said from the tone of Taco Man's reply to my reply… That's why OSW said:

OSW wrote:
We are always looking for constructive feedback as you know!!!

I'm glad we had this discussion. Does anyone else know what this is about? ;)


Resolute Ranchero, perhaps? I'm taking a lot of flavor from the "Classical" Westerns, here. But also a bit from the samurai's "CAN'T KILL ME!", as a sort of play off to the classical western hero never being foiled by a bullet levied by a man other than the dastardly mustachio'd villain.


Any comments on the current Saint of Sinners and the spell list? Would still like to swap out the 20th level rogue talent to fill the dead level at 17th, but not sure what with.


I kinda wonder about the thematics of effortless armor, but i get why they would want it.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Any comments on the current Saint of Sinners and the spell list? Would still like to swap out the 20th level rogue talent to fill the dead level at 17th, but not sure what with.

Perhaps something tied to ... Disguise skills maybe? Bah, not too shiny for such a high level piece... I'm definitely thinking something in the line of the Walkin' Dude, though...


Undetectable alignment as a constant thing for 17th maybe then?


That seems like it'd fit the flavor pretty good, especially with the whole- "Most saints of sinners think of themselves as good, but this is often a self-indulgent illusion." -Thing.


# Saint of Sinners

I'd prefer another name for this now. This is a decent MCA as is decent, but its not the saint of sinners I envisioned. I feel it is now too far off from the original premise and I'd like to keep the original premise under its old name. "Divergent Saint", "Rogue Saint" or "Grey Channel" could be good names.

I feel a rogue-based MCA with 4 skill points isn't really a rogue. What gets removed to fix this is less important. Perhaps in exchange of the orisons?

The spell list: Perhaps add "mage hand" and "magic aura" at 1st, "misdirection" and "unseen servant" at 2nd, nondetection at 3rd. Some of these are normally arcane spells but fit the concept and having them at higher levels should not break the game.

For the lvl 17 ability, something that lets the MCA treat spells from the cleric list as known spells for a limited time? Say that each day you get to choose one spell of each spell level to cast this way. Similar to how the Magus does it, but adjusted for a spontaneous caster.

christos gurd wrote:
Undetectable alignment as a constant thing for 17th maybe then?

Undetectable alignment already lasts 24 hours, so we have this at level 7 if you pick that spell.


it saves you one of your very few spell slots.

edit: and if its Su rather than Sp then you can keep it on easier.


@ Taco Man

Great to have a player here. Feedback on how the MCAs work out in play would surely be appreciated.


@Starfox: just in his point:

Starfox wrote:
I feel a rogue-based MCA with 4 skill points isn't really a rogue.

You are right, but that is part of the point - it's not a rogue, it's a different concept. Even though I may be biased as inquisitors are one of my favorite classes, I find their 4 skill points/level more than enough to cover a range of options - either social or stealth or knowledge or device related, if not quite an uber-skill monkey.

I'm impressed that you have stuck with this process, I would have eaten my hat twice by now and had a rage quit over it. Reminds me of my first MCAs and the stubborn and mostly ill-informed points I made attempting to "stay true" to my concept. Ironically almost every tweak offered by the posters on that first thread was in the end a better fit for my concept.

To be clear, I'm not saying that this has happened here, likely not, nor that you have been stubborn nor ill-informed - I think your portfolio of archetypes and current run of published Prestige Archetypes attest to your rules-fu and knowledge. :)


Starfox wrote:

# Saint of Sinners

I'd prefer another name for this now. This is a decent MCA as is decent, but its not the saint of sinners I envisioned. I feel it is now too far off from the original premise and I'd like to keep the original premise under its old name. "Divergent Saint", "Rogue Saint" or "Grey Channel" could be good names.

I feel a rogue-based MCA with 4 skill points isn't really a rogue. What gets removed to fix this is less important. Perhaps in exchange of the orisons?

The spell list: Perhaps add "mage hand" and "magic aura" at 1st, "misdirection" and "unseen servant" at 2nd, nondetection at 3rd. Some of these are normally arcane spells but fit the concept and having them at higher levels should not break the game.

For the lvl 17 ability, something that lets the MCA treat spells from the cleric list as known spells for a limited time? Say that each day you get to choose one spell of each spell level to cast this way. Similar to how the Magus does it, but adjusted for a spontaneous caster.

christos gurd wrote:
Undetectable alignment as a constant thing for 17th maybe then?
Undetectable alignment already lasts 24 hours, so we have this at level 7 if you pick that spell.

1) Rogue Saint is good.

2) Skill Points should be 6 + Int, not 4 + Int, forgot to fix it.

3) Added those spells.

4) What abot this?

Greater Spell Access (Su): At 17th level, a rogue saint gains access to an expanded spell list. She places 8 spells from the cleric’s spell list into her list of spells known as rogue saint spells of their cleric level. She gains two of each of the following cleric spells not on the rogue saint spell list: 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 20th level.


nice


# Rogue Saint

Looks good ^^

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
To be clear, I'm not saying that this has happened here, likely not, nor that you have been stubborn nor ill-informed - I think your portfolio of archetypes and current run of published Prestige Archetypes attest to your rules-fu and knowledge. :)

I did feel pretty bone-headed stubborn along the way.

My conclusion is that its better to come here with a half-formed concept than with one that is fully formed. A concept and a few loose ideas is better food for collaboration than something you (as writer) feels is fully finished.

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