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It sounds like your GM either is struggling to come up with imaginative challenges that don't threaten immersion or he is struggling with the "me vs the players" issue.
There is no rule that NPC characters cannot have an expanded spell list, though an after the fact explanation would help maintain immersion if it happens consistently. Targeting you for a will save is completely reasonable, considering PCs target opponents with what they perceive is their weakest save all the time.
However when you deliberately engineer around an ability that a player has (and not an extremely powerful one in this case), then you run the risk of ruining the fun for the player, plus being unfair in singling them out. It is like making sure every BBEG in the game is chaotic neutral with evil tendencies so the paladin can never smite.
Have to talked to your GM yet about your frustration with everyone countering your ability when they dont even know it exists at the time? I am assuming you are referring to the actions of NPCs that have not seen you use the feat firsthand of course. I would bring it up with him and then ask to change out the feat. He is likel to say no, in which case you should point out the metagaming that has to take place for encounters to know of your ability without ever seeing or hearing about it.
Hopefully you get some positive change from these conversation. He should at least be willing to discuss the issue with you. If he shuts you down or dismisses you, you may want to keep shopping, not everyone was cut out to be a GM.
Unruly, since you're wrong about one thing, I'll correct you.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Acrobatics doesn't stop you from using Step-Up. All that stops you from using Step-Up is if you're unable to end that step adjacent to the enemy. Acrobatics also doesn't stop AoO's from casting, only AoO's from movement through threatened squares.
Acrobatics does negate Step Up.
Step Up (Combat)
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
Emphasis mine
Step Up calls for a 5' step action. Acrobatics uses a move, negating Step Up. Should OP take Following Step, this situation may alleviate itself to an extent.
Also, at higher levels, concentration checks get to be pretty easy, too. If the GM's building his own NPCs, then hitting double-digit levels means auto-casting of most spells cast during combat. (I'm thinking my level 12 oracle auto-made concentration checks for spell levels 1-5. Was an elf, too, so no max CHA; she bought a 17. No big deal there.)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Acrobatics doesn't stop you from using Step-Up. All that stops you from using Step-Up is if you're unable to end that step adjacent to the enemy. Acrobatics also doesn't stop AoO's from casting, only AoO's from movement through threatened squares.
No...what he's saying is that allthe enemies use Acrobatics to move away from him more than 5 feet before casting without provoking AoO. This is a bit risky, and stupid since you could just 5-foot step, unless you know the enemy has Step Up...in which case it makes that Feat useless. Hence metagaming.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
I don't think your DM is scamming you. He's making the enemies smarter. Though I do admit it's strange to see mages tumble. Having restorative items is not uncommon for enemy NPCs. In all of those examples, the NPC has to waste a precious standard action to do it.
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I don't think your DM is scamming you. He's making the enemies smarter. Though I do admit it's strange to see mages tumble. Having restorative items is not uncommon for enemy NPCs. In all of those examples, the NPC has to waste a precious standard action to do it.
It's metagaming if they do a risky maneuver you only use to counter Step Up on this random guy they've never seen before because the GM knows he has Step Up. Which appears to be happening here. All the time, since he hasn't gotten to use the Feat in 2 levels.
I don't know if this is the right forum, but here's the deal. I think the GM for my group is metagaming. I know some metagaming is necessary while running a game, that's not the real issue.
The issue is I took the step-up feat so that I could threaten casters and ranged focused opponents with my TWF build. It worked the first couple of levels, then all of a sudden enemy NPCs started using acrobatics to move away before casting or firing bows. I can see them doing so if they had observed me using step-up in that battle or had prior knowledge of the party's tactics, but they haven't. I don't think I have been able to use the feat in 2 levels. Before the acrobatics started, the casters would just take the AoO then cast a hold or charm spell since my will save is really weak.
Another issue I've noticed is the NPCs always have the right spell at the right time and near unlimited use, even if it's not on their class spell list. I've had hold person cast on me from a magus for example, and constant dispel magic, or potions that eliminate nauseated.
I enjoy the game immensely, but I feel like no matter what the PCs do there will just be an inexplicable answer the next round. Am I being trivial or is there a real issue here?
I'd just like to point out that the magus can cast Hold Person if they get it through Spell Blending. On the subject of acrobatics, it's entirely possible that they've encountered others with the same tactic as you. I know if that happened to me once I'd assume that every enemy had it by default so I wouldn't be surprised again. Of course, that's reaching for an explanation anyway.
I'd talk to the DM and let them know that you feel like your contributions and investments are being invalidated too often, maybe ask if you can help come up with an alternative solution.
Every GM should metagame, at least a little.
But for the most part, it should be towards the PC's strengths as much as it is away.
That said, if your use of Step Up is constantly shutting his casters/archers down (I.e. first thing you do every combat is to get in their face), then I can see why he'd be compensating for it all the time. He would still be making the mistake of depending on that one trick, though.
I'm feeling kind of passive-aggressive today, so I'd probably just ask if I could retrain the feat. If asked why, I'd say because it's useless.
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Re-read that, Lazar. He's admitting he's biased; he's asking us for our opinions, on the assumption that we are unbiased.
Which ... is probably not true.
Your other option to get around this is to ready an action to attack when the caster tries to move away. That way you get to hit him before he moves, so even if he acro's away, or 5-ft steps, he still has the damage and needs to make the concentration check. Plus, if his acrobatic check doesn't beat your CMD, you get the AoO, so that's like 2-4-1. Of course, the counter to that is for the casters to just cast defensively, and as was already stated, that's a much safer bet for the enemy than using acrobatics in any case.
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Are enemies also regularly succeeding at the Acrobatics check? The DC is your CMD, if you're a melee fighter that shouldn't be a trivial check for them.
* Moving at more than half speed causes a +10 DC.
* Failure cancels their move action AND provokes an AoO.
* Acrobatics is not a class skill for any full caster class.
If your GM is running Acrobatics fairly, and your to-hit is high, then it would take enemies quite a big investment in Acrobatics to pull this off reliably. If they're not pulling it off reliably, it may actually be working to your advantage.
So it's relevant to watch if the GM is really using it fairly/correctly. And if you think he's not, politely ask him about it.
What is the age/experience of the GM? This is kinda common with people new to the job. It is also common with people who aren't rules experts and don't prep a lot.
I can easily see the thought process of:
'...
I don't have time to learn every spell. Let's see we need a magus here. Magus is an arcane caster. He's smart enough to target the probable weak save. What is a will save arcane spell? Hey I know basically what Hold Person does, so I don't have to look it up all the time. Plus it is both divine and arcane. Kool, if I don't have something specific chosen. The casters will use Hold Person to target will saves.
...'
Yes, I as GM should know the spell lists for each class better and have prepared more applicable spells to be used in the various situations. But if I didn't know them that well yet, I might short cut it this way.
You can get some similar reasoning for the "acrobatics away."
I can tell you that most of my squishy full caster PC's don't just take a 5' step and cast after about 2nd or 3rd level. At first and second level most things have bad saves, so my spell has a good chance to end things. If it doesn't, the opponent takes a 5' step, and hits me; well it is likely to put me down, but not too likely to flat out kill me.
At around 3rd level, things start getting decent saves so my spell is not as likely to end things. Plus if he hits me the damage done has gone up enough that it is likely to just kill me outright.
So if a TWF ranger is right next to my sorcerer, I will almost always use a withdraw action or acrobatics away. So I can see why a GM would do this with his NPC's.
Having said that, I agree it shouldn't be every time. But I can easily see me not realizing it was so constant as to be noticeable.
I would caution against "call him out on it" since that comes across as very accusatory and trying to start a fight. Calmly say something like, "Is there some reason all of the casters know I have Step-Up? I can see that it might be a std tactic for some of them to acrobatics away, but every caster in the world probably wouldn't have that exact same tactic as the default. If it is going to be the default for every caster, my character should be able to recognize that from real world experience so would have chosen to train in a more useful ability."
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* Failure cancels their move action AND provokes an AoO.
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I believe you only lose the move action if you are trying to move through the enemies space.
If the caster is moving away it will just eat an AoO.
Your other option to get around this is to ready an action to attack when the caster tries to move away. That way you get to hit him before he moves, so even if he acro's away, or 5-ft steps, he still has the damage and needs to make the concentration check.
He hasn't started casting the spell yet, why would he need to make a check?
Your other option to get around this is to ready an action to attack when the caster tries to move away. That way you get to hit him before he moves, so even if he acro's away, or 5-ft steps, he still has the damage and needs to make the concentration check.He hasn't started casting the spell yet, why would he need to make a check?
My bad, I had a DM who used to count any damage taken during your action, not just as you cast.
At that point you would ready a move action to follow them, but then yeah, your step up feat is pretty pointless.
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Hey I've been in the OP shoes. I've had my DM do stuff specifically to piss me off and ruin my feat choices. Once I took Combat reflexes on a 2 weapon fighter just to have 0 AoO given to me because even mindless undead avoid AoO through "Smart" movement and Having team work feat Escape route on every undead Horde. I took the Feat and for 4 levels never given an AoO from anything so I traded the feat out for something Pure damage so he can't Cheese around my Fighter.
I recommend talking to him because it sounds like he has the thought of DM vs Players and the DM doesn't sound like he is playing fair or Unintelligent encounter correctly. If a DM wants to win that badly he might as well have the Apocalypse happen and kill you off that way and not waste your time grinding Levels.
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NPCs in each fight should be starting off with an acrobatics check instead of a 5 foot step. That is pure metagaming. But one could argue that an NPC with a decent intelligence would be able to realize as the combat scene continues that a simple 5 foot step against you is simply not going to work.
Since starting to gm for pfs and adventure paths, I personally have tried prepping NPCs on the basis of how would this guy react to this or that. I focus mainly on making the sessions entertaining (and a challenge if written to be).
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* Failure cancels their move action AND provokes an AoO.
...I believe you only lose the move action if you are trying to move through the enemies space.
If the caster is moving away it will just eat an AoO.
You might be right there;
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move though an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.
I look at it, and I can't actually find WHAT happens if you don't succeed at the check for any of those things (except going through an enemy's square). It might be one of two things:
* The enemy provokes an AoO after all.* The enemy doesn't provoke, but loses the action and doesn't move.
I'm not sure which of those it is.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Acrobatics doesn't stop you from using Step-Up. All that stops you from using Step-Up is if you're unable to end that step adjacent to the enemy. Acrobatics also doesn't stop AoO's from casting, only AoO's from movement through threatened squares.No...what he's saying is that allthe enemies use Acrobatics to move away from him more than 5 feet before casting without provoking AoO. This is a bit risky, and stupid since you could just 5-foot step, unless you know the enemy has Step Up...in which case it makes that Feat useless. Hence metagaming.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
It doesn't make it useless. It forces the foe to try and, possibly, miss an acrobatic test. If on top of always guessing right the feats of the op, opponent spellcasters also never ever miss acrobatic tests like, ever, then OP should feel free to call him out for fudging rolls.
When was the last time you wizard actually pulled a stunt like that successfully?
When the DM comes up with a way to prevent you from exploiting a feat to end his encounters in half the time he designed for, he is metagaming.
When he adjusts the CR of enemies so they are appropriate for your level and gives you loot that you actually want based on your level he is just DMing.
Double Standards HO!!!!
Unfortunately this game has a very bad way of opening the can of worms philosophy, and when you open up one can that destroys encounters by making the casters not able to cast, the balance of power in the game has shifted very heavily in your favor. The DM has to metagame to counterbalance the trick that you discovered when in a more balanced setting there would be more obstacles.
My question is: why can you get to "all" of these spellcasters faces in the first place? Do they not have mooks or BDFs to protect them? If you play in such a game world where casters constantly let enemy fighters get in their face, I could totally understand how all casters would find it necessary to train themselves in acrobatics to get away.
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I look at it, and I can't actually find WHAT happens if you don't succeed at the check for any of those things (except going through an enemy's square). It might be one of two things:
* The enemy provokes an AoO after all.
* The enemy doesn't provoke, but loses the action and doesn't move.I'm not sure which of those it is.
We've always assumed an AoO and the movement continues. I have no rule to back that up, we never even considered the possibility.
I suppose if I look at it logically...
Assume I try to dive and roll past someone before they can swing a club at me. My lack of coordination will not make me suddenly stand back up where I started though I can see it allowing the other guy to take a swing at me.
Of course. Logic doesn't always have anything to do with game rules. =)
To give you some actual advice, I suggest simply pointing it out to the GM. Say something like this the next time a mage tumbles:
"A mage tumbling? That's kind of odd. I'd expect tumbling from a rogue, but why isn't the mage 5-foot stepping instead? Isn't that the logical thing a mage does when threatened?"
And then if he mentions you have Step-Up, then casually point out the mage doesn't know you have Step-Up.
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To give you some actual advice, I suggest simply pointing it out to the GM. Say something like this the next time a mage tumbles:
"A mage tumbling? That's kind of odd. I'd expect tumbling from a rogue, but why isn't the mage 5-foot stepping instead? Isn't that the logical thing a mage does when threatened?"
And then if he mentions you have Step-Up, then casually point out the mage doesn't know you have Step-Up.
This is a great way to handle it by putting him a spot that he basically admits to the meta-gaming himself.
Yes. Tricking your DM into admiting he is doing it wrong is a great way to improve the game.
Just talk to the guy honestly. Explain your frustrations, and be willing to listen to his reasoning.
Acrobatics prior to a spell is actually a great strategy for a mage who can manage it, as it gets you to safety away from things like reach weapon AoOs, and Step Up feats. It gets a bit weird when every caster is doing it, but eh... maybe work on boosting your CMD a bit? A wizard isn't likely to have the most amazing acrobatics score around, and if you can keep him from getting free moves away from you he then has to choose between the risk of defensive casting, or the risk of an AoO in exchange for moving to a safe place to cast.
As for archers, congratulations, they've used a move action to get away from you instead of a 5-foot step... meaning you've just messed up their full attack for the round and they're going to fire one measly arrow instead of a barrage of them. You still get shot at once, which may not seem that nice, but it is good once you realize that if the enemy archer had gone with the Point-Blank Master feat instead of the Acrobatics skill they could have simply fired half a dozen arrows into your face from melee range without any risk of AoO.
I will echo some others here in saying that if this works often then you need to increase your CMD, also, acrobatics checks to get away from full BAB opponents should be difficult. Don't forget that the DC goes up if there are multiple threatening opponents.
When the DM comes up with a way to prevent you from exploiting a feat to end his encounters in half the time he designed for, he is metagaming.
When he adjusts the CR of enemies so they are appropriate for your level and gives you loot that you actually want based on your level he is just DMing.
Double Standards HO!!!!
Unfortunately this game has a very bad way of opening the can of worms philosophy, and when you open up one can that destroys encounters by making the casters not able to cast, the balance of power in the game has shifted very heavily in your favor. The DM has to metagame to counterbalance the trick that you discovered when in a more balanced setting there would be more obstacles.
My question is: why can you get to "all" of these spellcasters faces in the first place? Do they not have mooks or BDFs to protect them? If you play in such a game world where casters constantly let enemy fighters get in their face, I could totally understand how all casters would find it necessary to train themselves in acrobatics to get away.
I feel like this should be resolved by just upping the CR on a fight or lowering the level of the enemies in exchange for having more enemies. Being able to stay in the face of a fleeing mage is what the guy built for and should be able to do it reasonably well. Just start putting in 2 casters (maybe we make them different but complementary styles so you have to choose which one to take out first) and not spend all of your DM'ing energy trying to figure out how to make your player feel useless.
I wouldn't consider this a double standard because the party is static, the encounters are endlessly variable, and the only goal of encounter building is making for an interesting challenge. I can tell you right now that if my character died in a fight where I endlessly pursued a mage while his friends filled me with arrows, as long as that mage was successfully shut down, I wouldn't be pissed. I would feel like I went out like a boss. On the other hand, winning a fight where I failed to do anything but make single attacks against the caster that I thought my character had trained to kill would feel empty and lame. It would make me want to do something else.
The only times you should actually work to shut down player options is if you wanted to put in something MORE interesting. Like taking all your party's stuff and throwing them in an antimagic field so they have to freestyle rap their way out of some extradimensional courtroom where they were accused of not having fly rhymes.
I don't know what level you are, but this should help a little bit. Let's assume we have a level 6 fighter vs a level 6 wizard or sorcerer.
Level 6 Fighter:
BAB: +6
Strength: 18 (+4)
Dexterity: 14 (+2)
CMD = 10 + BAB + Strength Mod + Dexterity Mod. In this case 22.
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Level 6 Wizard or Sorcerer:
Acrobatics rank (capped at level) 6
Not a class skill, so no +3 class skill bonus
Dexterity: 14 (+2) (Spellcasters do need at least a decent dex for ranged touch attacks)
Acrobatics bonus = Ranks + Ability mod + Trained Bonus. In this case +8.
He's having to roll at least a 14 to roll 10 feet away from you. If he moves any more than 15* feet away from you, remind him that the DC to perform the acrobatics check increases by 10, thus, he has to roll a 24 on a 20 sided die.
*Assuming the creature has a 30ft movement speed. Acrobatics rules actually state that if the creature tries to move more than half their speed the DC increases by 10
Usually a player has no right to call metagaming on the GM. You are assuming a lot about your foes. Maybe your enemy is under the employ of a BBEG whos spies have informed him about your abilities and he has warned his minions. Maybe the caster simply has fought somebody with Step-Up before and decided to invest in appropriate countermeasures. Step-up may or may not be a bit unusual, bur reach weapons certainly are not, and the good old acrobatics trick would foil a reach weapon user just as easily.
A caster could get a good acrobatics if they want one, between dex and traits to add Acrobatics as a class skill or multiclassing. Nevertheless, they are investing part of their character in this defense, as opposed to just out and out killing you, so you should be happy.
Honestly it would be easier for a caster to simply pick up Combat Casting, or Mirror Image, or Greater Invisibility, or Displacement, or Fly, or any of the other plentiful options at his disposal for foiling a pure melee character. Your GM is throwing you a bone by having them *not* do that. I recommend you not spit it back in his face.
Before the acrobatics started, the casters would just take the AoO then cast a hold or charm spell since my will save is really weak.
Wait, what? I'm going to address this part of what you said, since the others have covered the other bits.
I just want to make sure we're on the same page. Did the casters:
In the case of 1, you should tell your DM that they have to make a concentration check due to damage taken while casting (DC 10+damage, IIRC)
In the case of 2, nevermind on this post.
Usually a player has no right to call metagaming on the GM. You are assuming a lot about your foes. Maybe your enemy is under the employ of a BBEG whos spies have informed him about your abilities and he has warned his minions. Maybe the caster simply has fought somebody with Step-Up before and decided to invest in appropriate countermeasures. Step-up may or may not be a bit unusual, bur reach weapons certainly are not, and the good old acrobatics trick would foil a reach weapon user just as easily.
A caster could get a good acrobatics if they want one, between dex and traits to add Acrobatics as a class skill or multiclassing. Nevertheless, they are investing part of their character in this defense, as opposed to just out and out killing you, so you should be happy.
Honestly it would be easier for a caster to simply pick up Combat Casting, or Mirror Image, or Greater Invisibility, or Displacement, or Fly, or any of the other plentiful options at his disposal for foiling a pure melee character. Your GM is throwing you a bone by having them *not* do that. I recommend you not spit it back in his face.
I think you're giving the DM too much credit. Good DMs metagame and you don't mind it at all. Really good DMs metagame and you love it. A bad DM metagames and you feel cheated. In fact, I'm not even sure how you can think a DM who is using blackflipping wizards to make a player feel useless even has an idea what he's doing.
Hell, I remember pulling that crap when I was first starting out. When you don't have a masterful grasp of the system, you generally become very reactionary to increasing character ability. I mean, you should always be reacting to the players, but when you're new and bad, you can't zoom out far enough to find interesting solutions to the problem of a sticky fighter. I cringe to remember things I did to my friends in high school to keep a rogue from getting his sneak attacks.
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When the DM comes up with a way to prevent you from exploiting a feat to end his encounters in half the time he designed for, he is metagaming.
When he adjusts the CR of enemies so they are appropriate for your level and gives you loot that you actually want based on your level he is just DMing.
Double Standards HO!!!!
Unfortunately this game has a very bad way of opening the can of worms philosophy, and when you open up one can that destroys encounters by making the casters not able to cast, the balance of power in the game has shifted very heavily in your favor. The DM has to metagame to counterbalance the trick that you discovered when in a more balanced setting there would be more obstacles.
Not all metagaming is bad for the game. In fact, good metagaming is incredibly important. However, "metagaming" has a negative connotation for a lot of people, so people usually don't refer to good metagaming as metagaming.
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The casters weren't using acrobatics they were simply eating the AoO, then cast a higher level spell. The non casters were trying to use acrobatics, my CMD is near 30 now so they would eat an AoO half the time. My char doesn't have combat reflexes (yet)so after one AoO, the rest of the baddies would still acrobatics out to avoid the step-up and not take an AoO. I hope that clears some of the confusion up...
Ok, that's a bit different from what I thought before. I would not call this bad metagaming. This seems more like pretty reasonable tactics.
The casters are letting you get a hit then casting. That is more than I would do as a caster player. I would usually use a withdraw action to a safer place.
The (presumably) high dex archer is trying to acrobatics more than 5' before shooting at you. Perfectly reasonable. If I am playing an archer who pretty much relies on his bow and a guy with 2 swords (and I assume appears competent) is right in front of me, what am I going to do? I'm not going to take only 1 step away unless I am pretty sure my arrows will take him down. Because if I do, he will take 1 step and slice the heck out of my delicate face. Has nothing to do with knowing you have step-up. It is knowing next turn you could take a 5' step and full attack.