Markthus! Thank you! Very flattering. :D
Liam, I think your post went wrong somewhere. It's just a massive quote of me! Which, while flattering, doesn't really say much...False modesty?
Nope! I'm not modest at all!
Your right something went wrong but its not just a massive quote. Most of the last paragraph is my reply it just somehow got dragged into the quote. To restate ...
We will, grin.
The pathfinder fighter is an analog of the 3.x fighter but mythic ranks are not an analog of epic levels (or divine rank).
Ah, got it.
After reading most of it, apparently I skipped forward over it, auto-completing what I thought I already knew. Thanks! :D
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Well if it helps, they recently updated the Mythic Paths with Mythender versions of them. It's a free RPG where you go around killing gods and such. It's much more abstract, which would fit the concept of the gods not quite being stattable.
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Idk a mythic tier seems more useful to me thank an epic level.
Actually you can. There's even an entry in the bestiary which as a CR1/MR1 critter.You can't add mythic to level 1 characters. They have to be level 2, at least! :D
(I'm a helper!)
1) You missed my post mostly ninja'ing you by an hour! (Or you just accepted my actual quoting of the rules as reinforcing a point I wasn't trying to make - easy enough to do!) ((Also, of course, I missed your post by a few hours, sooooooo... :D))
2) the only CR 1/MR 1 creature I can find is a mythic skeleton which, you know, has two hit dice. Making its rank equal to half it's "level" i.e. hit dice*. (Also, according to the preponderance of your arguments I've seen, I could never imagine you accepting a skeleton as a "character".) If you could link me to another one, I'd be very interested in seeing it, though! I'm always interested in how Paizo handles these things.
* CR is used to roughly judge how powerful you must be to fight it, while HD determines its BAB, saves, skills (if any), and so on - effectively everything that levels grant you is entirely relegated by HD. CR is even affected by equipment, which level is not - relative power is, yes, but actual level is not. Thus I wouldn't consider a monster's CR to equal its level.
2) the only CR 1/MR 1 creature I can find is a mythic skeleton which, you know, has two hit dice. Making its rank equal to half it's "level" i.e. hit dice*. (Also, according to the preponderance of your arguments I've seen, I could never imagine you accepting a skeleton as a "character".) If you could link me to another one, I'd be very interested in seeing it, though! I'm always interested in how Paizo handles these things.
Chaneque, from Bestiary 4, is CR 1/MR 1. Doesn't look to be on the d20pfsrd yet, or I'd link it. However, it's 3 HD, so your argument for the mythic skeleton still holds here.
Ummmm looks at Mythic and Epic rules . . . no, no they don't.Sure they do. You can wait to add Mythic until 20th level and treat it as progressing into Epic without a problem.
Not quite.
No more skill points.
No more spells known.
No more spells per day.
No more hit points.
No increase to BAB.
No increase to saving throws.
You have to be very clear on how to address these points when using mythic as "advancement" beyond 20.
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Having not read the ELH could you combine Mythic & Epic together? Do the two systems work at all with each other? Could you be Level 25 10th tier character using both rule sets? Assuming you were mixing 3.X and 3.P
I'm not sure about the fighting gods question, but from my reading of the Mythic rules you could definitely combine them with Epic rules if you wanted. For that matter, the very brief post-20th level rules found in the Core Rulebook also work fine with Mythic rules.
One of the things I really appreciate about the Mythic rules is that they graft on pretty well to any post-20th level advancement rules you might want to use. That's pretty convenient for me, since there were already a couple 22nd-level characters in my setting. But those guys are still bound by the laws or mortality. As I run the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path, they can help out here and there but will eventually be dwarfed in power by the PCs even if they technically remain at a higher level.
Chaneque, from Bestiary 4, is CR 1/MR 1. Doesn't look to be on the d20pfsrd yet, or I'd link it. However, it's 3 HD, so your argument for the mythic skeleton still holds here.
Ooh! Thanks! :D
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Going to try to hit as many high points as I can.
Firstly, I have first-hand experience on trying to use mythic as advancement beyond 20. But when your own wife turns round and says "this isn't going to work. The only way my bard can get more skill points is to use the mythic stat increases in Intelligence. We're stagnant. We need another option" you will look hard at what works and what doesn't.
My conclusion was to allow post-20 advancement. Class levels capped at the levels in the books (20 for core and base, 10 for prestige classes), otherwise follow the rules presented in the CRB, and stack mythic tiers in. Currently, the group have advanced to level 21 with 4 mythic tiers. They're feeling very positive about being able to improve in the ways they always have, as well as gaining the extra boost of mythic. I'm well aware that it's going to cause a few issues eventually (such as when APL hits 26), but I'm currently pushing a generational move, so that when the current plotline finishes (which could be a very long time), the PCs are ready to "pass on the torch" to a bunch of new characters.
Now, on to the topic at hand: divine salient abilities are typically worth something in the order of 3-5 feats each. But they're not mythic. If I were to remould the deity rules, I would rewrite many of the DSAs to behave like mythic feats instead of 'normal' ones. I would tie divine abilities to a "divine power" score (paralleling mythic power), but several times better. So, say, Divine Strength (which pulls together mythic power attack, the Display of Strength path ability, mythic cleave, and maybe mythic furious focus) can be switched on by expending one use of divine power and lasts for 1 minute per divine rank. A deity would be constructed as a level 20/tier 10 character with divine rank on top. Basically, deities should do to mythic what mythic does to normal: turn it up to 11.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
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3.5 Epic is an expansion of levels beyond 20 while PF Mythic is a layered level of power throughout the base 1-20. A lot of people compare them because they offer "additional powers" to the 1-20 base assumptions but I don' think that is fair.
For one the way power is accumulated and builds up is completely different.
One is additional and the other is supplemental.
PF doesn't really have an "Epic level" progression plan that is well defined outside of a brief two paragraph blurb in the CRB. Which I actually like since the ELH was so out of balance with everything offered in 3.0/3.5 (even out of balance with things presented in the ELH.
The EPH assumes that your character is 20th level and then accumulates additional powers through a normal level process with powers attempting to be in line with the standard leveling assumption.
Mythic Characters are still bound by the 20 level assumption and have a supplemental level of power that is layered on top of their base level with Mythic monsters and enemies following the same guide lines.
CR20+ creatures follow the same guidelines (even with the developers seeming to ignore the action economy disparity that grows exponentially with level).
Determine APL: Determine the average level of your player characters—this is their Average Party Level (APL for short). You should round this value to the nearest whole number (this is one of the few exceptions to the round down rule). Note that these encounter creation guidelines assume a group of four or five PCs. If your group contains six or more players, add one to their average level. If your group contains three or fewer players, subtract one from their average level. For example, if your group consists of six players, two of which are 4th level and four of which are 5th level, their APL is 6th (28 total levels, divided by six players, rounding up, and adding one to the final result).
So for easy limited math you can assume that a CR 25 is designed for a party of 10 level 20 characters if you add an additional 1 to the "appropriate CR" for each character after 5. Although that is an assumption based off of the presented rule. It’s likely, however, that this is a fallacy in logic but then I don’t feel too bad because forming the conclusion that Mythic and Epic fill the same role is a fundamentally flawed logical argument ends (which is an argument being used in this thread) as they function differently and to different ends.
One does not replace the other as a group using a hybrid 3.5/PF rule system could implement both. A group just using basic extension of level as described in the CRB's little bit of text about beyond 20th level can also implement post 20 leveling and Mythic tiers. They are not representative of each other as they are a means to different ends.
A 20th level rogue in a campaign that tries to use mythic as advancement beyond 20th level has no way to improve their skills beyond retraining their skill points or relying on magic items to give them a boost.
A 20th level wizard, on the other hand, will get new skill points, spells per day, and improve their save DC.
A 20th level fighter will increase their attack and damage. But no new skills, either.
Everyone's saving throws are basically static (well, I guess the rogue will increase reflex, and the cleric will increase willpower).
The problem is that the "advancement" is solely tied to the ability score(s) the characters choose to improve with their tiers.
Bear in mind that up to 20th level, the characters have been improving skills, saves, BAB, and other things on a steady basis. That stops DEAD at 20. The characters will improve only a small subset of the statistics they're used to improving. Without explicitly choosing to use their mythic abilities to "advance", they will get better at things they're already good at, and nothing else will advance at all.
Now, I'm not really saying it's a problem (though it was for my group). Just that when using mythic as a means to advance beyond 20th level you need to know that it happens. It's completely different to advancement in the rest of the game.
Riddle me this batman,
MT 10 lvl 20 characters can solo CR 25 encounter, but a lvl 20 character has almost no chance of doing that (assume no batman-ing).
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Now, I'm not really saying it's a problem (though it was for my group). Just that when using mythic as a means to advance beyond 20th level you need to know that it happens. It's completely different to advancement in the rest of the game.
Well, that is very different from saying 'mythic doesn't work as advancement at all'.
Now, I'm not really saying it's a problem (though it was for my group). Just that when using mythic as a means to advance beyond 20th level you need to know that it happens. It's completely different to advancement in the rest of the game.Well, that is very different from saying 'mythic doesn't work as advancement at all'.
Show me where I said that, and I'll happily concede the point.
(s)He said (s)He said?
Who said?
You said?
No said.
I said?
I say.
EDIT:
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For anyone (like the OP) who cares about the original question of comparability and compatibility of mythic vs. divine (vs. epic):
- No, Mythic is not equivalent to Divine Ranks - far from. Similar theme, vastly different approach and power level.
- Mythic is roughly comparable in power to Epic levels. Epic feats give close to mythic abilities, but don't come every level, while hp/skills/etc do.
- Epic is equivalent to divine ranks (written at roughly the same time), but on a much smaller scale. As someone said, divine salient abilities are like 3-5 feats, but usually 3-5 epic feats.
- Overall, power ratio of Epic:Mythic:Divine, I'd say 2:3:10
I am running Slumbering Tsar, which will eventually get into epic levels, and I've been considering allowing a choice between epic and mythic. If I do, should be interesting to see what people pick.
Epic levels solely deal with raising bab, saves, etc as you add aditional levels pas 20.
I'm assuming you never actually played with the Epic Level Handbook rules, because those changes were the tiniest portion of what being Epic meant. What you're describing is the two-page quick rules in the 3.5 DMG, or these rules in Pathfinder. The ELH had Epic Feats, Epic Skill usages, Epic magic items, and yes, Epic Spells (which had to be managed very carefully). A beautiful add-on.
It's simmilarity to D+D ended when the APG was published.
Definitely not true if you don't use that book. ;)
^ What he said.
If Epic and Mythic are so different, why do I need them to fight Demon Lords like Dagon or Pazuzu (both have stats in 3.5 and PF)?
If Epic and Mythic are so different, why do I need them to fight Demon Lords like Dagon or Pazuzu (both have stats in 3.5 and PF)?
No you really don't need either to fight a demon lord. Anyone can fight anything.