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Simple enough question: Does a monster without class levels that casts as if they were a ___-level caster of whatever class gain existing spell levels to that class if they get a prestige class that adds spell levels.
For example, an adult red dragon casts spells as a 7th level sorcerer, but isn't actually a sorcerer. Let's say he's got 1 fighter level too, so he has proficiency with all martial weapons. If he then went into Eldritch Knight, would those EK levels add to his racial "Casts as a sorcerer" ability in spite of him not actually having the sorcerer class?
Yes, that would work.
I'm assuming this is an npc. If so, I don't think that's supposed to work without the dragon actually having sorcerer levels.
This class requires proficiency in all martial weapons and 3rd-level arcane spellcasting, so the character must have levels in barbarian, fighter, paladin, or ranger (the only way to gain proficiency in all martial weapons from the Core Rulebook), and levels in bard, sorcerer, or wizard.
Though the theme of this class is mostly taken over by the magus base class, using the prestige class lets you do things that you can't do as a single-classed magus, such as using higher-level spells or arcane spells that aren't on the magus spell list, mixing arcane and divine magic (as the champion of magic eldritch knight does), and using barbarian rage.
In most cases, you can swap out the character's spellcasting class for another (such as replacing conjurer levels with summoner levels or sorcerer levels with bard levels) or swap her martial class levels for another martial class (ranger for barbarian, cavalier for fighter, and so on).
Following that strictly, the dragon cannot have any levels in Eldritch Knight at all without taking at least one class level in sorcerer. She may cast as if she were one of level X, but she isn't actually one for the purpose of meeting the EK perquisites. On the other hand, given the fee reign you get from the third paragraph to basically throw the EK perquisites to the wind...go for it. :)
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aboniks: The actual prerequisites in the Core Rulebook (rather than the slightly misleading guideline in the NPC Codex) are simply as follows:
Requirements
To qualify to become an eldritch knight, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
So qualifying for the PrC is not a problem for the dragon at all (as long as it's proficient with martial weapons).
Ah. Fair enough. :)
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It qualifies, but if it does not have levels in an Arcane casting class such as Sorcerer, then it has nothing to apply the +1 level to. As I understand it, the stacking of those classes would only be if the class comes into play. Then it could potentially be a Sorcerer 1 that casts as a Sorcerer of a much higher level. Taking your adult red Dragon into play, he could take a level of Sorcerer. Then he would be a level 1 Sorcerer with a caster level of 8. He would not gain second level spells until the Sorcerer class table indicates, but he could cast them at a substantially higher level. You could say that a level 2 Aasimar with the appropriate spell-like ability qualifies as well, but if the first level was Fighter, then there is nothing for the Eldritch Knight to progress as far as an Arcane caster goes.
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Oh certainly the dragon qualifies (and yes, it would be an NPC, though in this case it's also hypothetical) for EK.
The bigger issue was if its spell levels advance. I was a bit iffy on the issue since the wording in the EK PrC says "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class", and specifices that the EK gains levels in "an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class".
The dragon doesn't actually belong to an arcane spellcasting class, and is instead casting such spells racially, so I wasn't sure.
Edit: Calethos beat me to it. Basically what he said.
Gotcha. That was partially why I assumed the dragon was intended to have class levels in sorcerer in order to qualify for EK and gain the "+1 to existing level" benefit.
Taking your adult red Dragon into play, he could take a level of Sorcerer. Then he would be a level 1 Sorcerer with a caster level of 8. He would not gain second level spells until the Sorcerer class table indicates, but he could cast them at a substantially higher level.
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here? Are you suggesting that the dragon suddenly loses the ability to cast 2nd and 3rd level spells if it takes a sorcerer level? Because that's definitely not the case.
Yes, it would be a level 1 sorcerer (so the bloodline abilities and such would be for a level 1 sorcerer), but it would cast spells as if it was an 8th level sorcerer (because it has 7 innate sorcerer caster levels), including all the spells known and spell slots the sorcerer table tells you an 8th level sorcerer has (with bonuses for high ability scores).
I'll FAQ since it's a good question, but I think Calethos has the right of it.
Sure, he casts as as 7th level Sorcerer for his Spell-Like Abilities and what-not, but SLA's, while can fulfill pre-reqs, aren't Spells on a Spell List, and it does not make him an actual 7th level Sorcerer. Where are the bloodline powers? Bonus Feats/Spells? If he truly were a 7th level Sorcerer, he'd have that stuff. But he doesn't, so he isn't.
So if one casts SLA's as a 7th level Sorcerer, he's not a true Sorcerer.
Next, let's say he does get some levels in EK; the +1 to Existing Arcane Spell Casting Class does not apply. He has set list of SLA's which he casts as a 7th level Sorcerer, but this alone does not give one a Spell Casting Class to apply this stuff with, since firstly, he has no character levels/class levels in Sorcerer, and secondly, casting SLA's as a set-level Sorcerer isn't applicable, meaning the +1 to Existing Arcane Spell Casting Class does nothing to that regard also.
As far as even taking a level of Sorcerer before hitting EK, all I can say is congrats, he has a 1st level Sorcerer spell list and other goodies to cast as a 1st level Caster, with 7th level Sorcerer spell-like abilities to cast as a 7th level Caster. They're separate entities, and I don't get why people seem to think they're the same in terms of application.
I'm not sure those are SLAs. The dragon section of the bestiary says they cast spells as a sorcerer, not that they cast SLAs as a sorcerer.
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Step 2: Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature's role, it's time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.
Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.
A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table: NPC Gear. Once a total GP value is determined, follow the rules for outfitting an NPC as outlined in that section. Gear should help a monster with class levels remain challenging and retain statistics close to those presented on Table 1-1: Monster Statistics by CR.
I would say they stack.
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Hmm. After some digging, I might suggest differently, Darksol, based on a published monster. A recent AP has included a monster which has a "casts as a ___ of X level" ability, essentially the same as a dragon, which also has class levels in the same class that it racially casts at.
Wrath of the Righteous Spoiler:
This isn't my opinion. This is published. Racial casting stacks with caster levels of the same class.
The question we actually need the answer to is whether Prestige Classes increase racial caster levels when the monster has no actual levels in the class it racially casts as.
makes sense to me.
Agreed with Diego. They stack.
When adding class levels to a creature, the first step is to determine what role the base creature fulfills. There are three basic roles into which a creature might fall. A creature can fall into more than one role if its abilities are diverse.
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Spell: Spell creatures possess a large number of spells that allow them to attack or harass their enemies. These creatures usually have lower hit points and relatively weak attacks as compared to the averages for creatures of their CR. Note that creatures that only possess spell-like abilities do not fall into this role, and are usually considered combat or special.
Most dragons and outsiders fall into this role, but any creature that has a list of spells prepared or spells known likely falls under this heading as well.
Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.
Dragons have actual spells known; they do not cast them as SLA. If they gained levels in Sorcerer, those levels would stack with the existent caster level because the Dragon already possesses the class feature of casting as a sorcerer with X levels.
Also, to be clear Dragons can have both SLA and spells known like a sorcerer.
But specifically for the purposes of this thread, they have spells known. It's not dependent upon SLA.
Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its specific description. Its caster level depends on its age, as shown for each type.
Now....i want to make a dragon oracle mystic theurge.
I think Creatures, that have 'casts as a X' are not actually that class. It stacks with that class As illustrated by the Drider example above and probably numerous Nymph or Rakshaha with class levels in many published adventures (well likely more so the rakshasha sorcerers)
But i think for the purposes of PRC they ar enot actually that class when doing the advances as thing. but really this is fully in the DM's control and i dont think the RAW matters unless the DM wants it to.
Even if you feel like this wouldn't be founded in the RAW (I personally feel it is), it's worth pointing out that this particular case, mechanically it would be far superior to simply use an older dragon (mature adult is only 1 CR higher than adult, but gains +2 BAB and +2 levels of spellcasting).
So using class levels instead would essentially be you going easy on your players for the benefit of flavor :)
Even if you feel like this wouldn't be founded in the RAW (I personally feel it is), it's worth pointing out that this particular case, mechanically it would be far superior to simply use an older dragon (mature adult is only 1 CR higher than adult, but gains +2 BAB and +2 levels of spellcasting).
So using class levels instead would essentially be you going easy on your players for the benefit of flavor :)
Tasty tasty flavour.
I think Creatures, that have 'casts as a X' are not actually that class. It stacks with that class As illustrated by the Drider example above and probably numerous Nymph or Rakshaha with class levels in many published adventures (well likely more so the rakshasha sorcerers)
But i think for the purposes of PRC they are not actually that class when doing the advances as thing. but really this is fully in the DM's control and i dont think the RAW matters unless the DM wants it to.
If they're treated as that class for the spell casting class feature if they take levels in the base class, why wouldn't they be treated as that class for the spell casting class feature if they take levels in a PRC that augments that same class feature?