Well, you're physically affecting the card if you're recharging it due to cure, or getting it back with a toad, or whatever.That would be a stretch. How would you argue it?One could argue that this allows healing cards to be played on cards played and discarded during the step.I'm not concerned about the timing changes.
I'm concerned that the language "or relate to cards or powers played in the step" can be abused to play cards or activate powers that you think you maybe shouldn't be able to use during that step.
Put another way—what's the most broken thing you can think of to do that "relates to cards or powers played in a step"?
Cure would be stretch because it is random cards being recharged, so you couldn't know that it was the particular card you discarded. Toad is sort of the same as Token of Remembrance that I said above. If you just discarded the spell, does Toad relate to the spell you discarded?
I still think that is a stretch. But maybe swapping a few words would help? "or relate to playing cards or powers played in the step". Maybe that makes it clear it has to relate to the action of playing it, not the fact that it was a card you played?
I think that would do it. (I understood fine the first time, I was just trying to catch potential problems)
2. If I play Acid Arrow, Ezren gets to examine after completing the whole combat check. Then he attempts to recharge Acid Arrow.
This would require a change to the long Ezren example in the rules.
Recharging is not part of playing it.
Does this mean that spells are played using discard/banish and that recharging using Arcane/Divine is a power that allows you to react to the card being discarded? Then the rules example could be fine on finish-what-you-are-doing grounds.
If there were a location that had the power 'if you discard a spell, bury it instead', would that prevent recharges (like Lini at the Farmhouse)?
I'm concerned that the language "or relate to cards or powers played in the step" can be abused to play cards or activate powers that you think you maybe shouldn't be able to use during that step.
Does this differ from the approach used for end-of-turn card play? That looks good despite having bigger concerns for abuse. (But careful investigation is still warranted. Powers that cause you to make checks would be interesting.)
Will recharge checks now come under this category?
Vic said the example of play would need updating due to this proposal.
What do you mean by your last question? Will recharge checks comer under what category? Didn't quite understand. Thanks.
I wasn't sure for which reason the example was going to change.
Will recharge checks just be things that you do in reaction to previous card plays and thus not rate a mention in the encounter sequence?
• At the end of Attempt the Check, add "After you attempt the check, deal with any effects that were triggered by the check."
Note that this also means that recharging cards played during a check also moves to the end of each check instead of the end of the encounter; we also have to make adjustments in the example of play.
There might be an issue here for Lini. If attempting the recharge check is part of dealing with the effects triggered by the check and no longer in "Attempt the Next Check" (am I right in understanding that?) then she is still in the same step of the encounter and can't activate her "Reveal an animal ally" power. (And I think that is what category mlvanbie was talking about.)
EDIT: Yes it was.
Of course, you could tweak her power to overrule the rulebook via the Golden Rule I suppose.
You may reveal an ally with the Animal trait to add 1d4 to your check.
Maybe add make the ending "every check you attempt"?
Same would be true for Lem as well I suppose. And that might give opportunity to remove the "Once per check" that seems unnecessary on his powers, or to just give it actual meaning. In fact, why not just add "Once per check" to Lini?
Again, assuming I'm understanding this right.
Chief Technical Officer
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Note that this also means that recharging cards played during a check also moves to the end of each check instead of the end of the encounter; we also have to make adjustments in the example of play.I think also misunderstood you here. Were you saying that before I would have done both combat checks for a 2 combat check villain before attempting to recharge spells played for each check?
I was mistaken there; we had already clarified that recharging cards played on a check happens in a new check after that check. This change doesn't affect that, and nothing in the example needs to change.
I was mistaken there; we had already clarified that recharging cards played on a check happens in a new check after that check. This change doesn't affect that, and nothing in the example needs to change.Note that this also means that recharging cards played during a check also moves to the end of each check instead of the end of the encounter; we also have to make adjustments in the example of play.I think also misunderstood you here. Were you saying that before I would have done both combat checks for a 2 combat check villain before attempting to recharge spells played for each check?
Ah, ok. That solves Lini and Lem's problems.
What about the Token and Toad issues? Do you think that is a problem Vic?
So if I play Mirror Image for Before the Encounter from the Scout, Ezren examines as soon as I finish rolling the d4. When does he attempt the recharge check? Before or after the attempting combat check? (I don't think you are changing this, I'm more wondering if I've had this slightly wrong so far.)
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Chief Technical Officer
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So if I play Mirror Image for Before the Encounter from the Scout, Ezren examines as soon as I finish rolling the d4. When does he attempt the recharge check? Before or after the attempting combat check? (I don't think you are changing this, I'm more wondering if I've had this slightly wrong so far.)
I'm not liking the answers I'm getting there. Discussing.
So if I play Mirror Image for Before the Encounter from the Scout, Ezren examines as soon as I finish rolling the d4. When does he attempt the recharge check? Before or after the attempting combat check? (I don't think you are changing this, I'm more wondering if I've had this slightly wrong so far.)I'm not liking the answers I'm getting there. Discussing.
Ok. And Arcane Armor is the better example. It is a discard to activate spell. Mirror Image is reveal to activate, discard at the end of the turn, so I'm 99% sure I'd attempt the recharge check on Mirror Image at the end of the turn. But Arcane Armor is more like something I'd be unsure of right now.
There might be an issue here for Lini. If attempting the recharge check is part of dealing with the effects triggered by the check and no longer in "Attempt the Next Check" (am I right in understanding that?) then she is still in the same step of the encounter and can't activate her "Reveal an animal ally" power. (And I think that is what category mlvanbie was talking about.)
I think that we are agreed (based on text between your comment and this one) that the recharge is a separate check and every check is its own step for the purposes of playing cards and using powers.
I'm not liking the answers I'm getting there. Discussing.
I think that a big part of the problem (at least in my case) is that we never really understood what was meant by playing a spell, or possibly even a card. The rules told me that there were N ways of playing a card, so I wanted to do one of the things (say reveal or discard) right away to get the effect on the card. Then I learned that cards go 'in play', then I do the power, then I send the card to its destination.
The rules told me that 'recharge' is a way to play cards (such as some armour) so I assumed with spells that my Divine skill allowed me to play somes spells by recharging instead of discarding if I made a check. Since the card is 'in play' first, it makes sense that the recharge check happens when the card leaves play. I was also told that recharging isn't the method by which I'm playing the spell (makes sense, since I need to succeed at a check), so I asked the question about the spell version of the Farmhouse (still traumatized by the ruling against Lini there).
Ezren's power makes me wonder when a card is considered played. When it enters play? After the power text is read and immediately acted upon (possibly setting up lingering effects)? (That option may be irrelevant due to the FAQ entries that changed the text of various spells to use 'display'.) Once it is ready to leave play? After the recharge check? (Possibly only because we need to finish what we are doing in the last case.)
Is a card that is displayed no longer 'in play' but indicating an ongoing effect? This is the interpretation that leads to Ezren possibly drawing a card before rolling to see if Mirror Image works the first time.
Even the Staff of Minor Healing has me disagreeing with other people about whether it will be on the bottom of my deck if I heal myself with it ('and' versus 'to' on the card).
Playing a card means activating that card’s power. When a card has multiple powers, you must choose one of them. Each power will tell you what to do with the card after playing it: revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card. Powers may substitute one of these actions for another; if multiple powers apply use the Golden Rule to determine which to use first.
Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn’t involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power—it’s a mandatory action that you must take when you play the card. Doing something with a card that does not activate that card’s power does not count as playing that card. For example, if Kyra discards a spell to activate her healing power, it doesn’t count as playing that spell (meaning she also can’t recharge it).
Each power on a card will usually require you to take one of the following actions after activating the power. Take this action when you are done playing a card; if the card was played on a check then take the action after the check is completed (including resolving damage for combat checks) unless the card was being displayed.
• Reveal: Show it from your hand then put it back in your hand.
• Display: Place it face-up in front of your character immediately; you are done playing it. Unless stated otherwise; the card’s powers function while it is displayed. The card will tell you when and how to stop displaying the card.
I think that this works, but now I'm concerned about sequential (and thus possibly looping) action substitutions. As long as no location says 'if you would recharge a card, discard it' then we are probably fine....
Looks like the resolution is official. So Ezren can now examine his deck for playing an Arcane spell during any step of the encounter, but no more than once per step or once per check.