I've been thinking about the revision to the Encountering a Card, specifically the clarification that if Ezren plays a spell, he gets to activate his power to examine and draw from his deck during the "Apply any effects that happen after the encounter" step. Here is the sequence from the latest rulebook:
Evade the Card (Optional). If you have a power or card that lets you evade the card you’re encountering, you may immediately shuffle it back into the deck; it is neither defeated nor undefeated, and the encounter is over.
Apply Any Effects That Happen Before the Encounter, If Needed. Attempt the Check. If the card is a boon, you may try to acquire it for your deck; if it’s a bane, you must try to defeat it (see Attempting a Check, below). If a card’s check section says “None,” look at the card’s powers, and immediately do whatever it says there.
Attempt the Next Check, If Needed. If another check is required, such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge, or if your bane requires a second check to defeat, resolve it now. Repeat this step until you have resolved all such checks.
Apply Any Effects That Happen After the Encounter, If Needed. Do this whether or not you succeeded at your checks. At this time, deal with any effects that were triggered by the checks. For example, if Ezren played a spell with the Arcane trait during the check, he may now use the power that allows him to examine the top card of his deck.
Resolve the Encounter. If you succeed at all of the checks required to defeat a bane, banish it; if you don’t succeed, it is undefeated—shuffle the card back into its location deck. If you succeed at a check to acquire a boon, put it in your hand; otherwise, banish it.
So, here are my questions/thoughts:
1. If Ezren plays more than one spell, can he only examine the top card of hid deck once? Since he is only allowed to activate each power once during any of the steps of the encounter, it would seem to mean that if Ezren plays multiple spells in an encounter, he is only going to get to examine the top card of his deck one time. So for, for instance, if he fights a two check villain and uses spells for both checks, he'll only get to examine the top card one time.
2. What if Ezren plays a spell, but it isn't during the check? Like what if he plays Invisibility? Since he evaded, he never gets to "Apply any effects that happen after the encounter". Does he still get to examine his top card? My guess here is yes, though it doesn't really fit into the sequence explicitly.
3. Out of curiosity (and if someone who knows is willing to share), why was this clarification made? Was this always how it was intended? Or did it change to fix something that was viewed as a detrimental to the game? Or was it just thought that it wasn't clear and people were confused, so it was best to be specific?
Thanks all.
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1) You can use a power once per check / step, not once per encounter. If you cast Lightning Touch on check 1, your power procs. Then you play another Lightning Touch on check 2, and your power procs again.
2) Your power works whenever you play a spell that matches your powers requirements (Arcane trait, IIRC), even outside of an encounter.
3) My guess is it was always intended to be this way. With the clarification, you can't do something like play your only spell (a Lightning Touch), on check one, draw a card, and get lucky enough for another Lightning Touch on check two. It keeps you from adding to your hand mid-encounter.
1) You can use a power once per check / step, not once per encounter. If you cast Lightning Touch on check 1, your power procs. Then you play another Lightning Touch on check 2, and your power procs again.
2) Your power works whenever you play a spell that matches your powers requirements (Arcane trait, IIRC), even outside of an encounter.
3) My guess is it was always intended to be this way. With the clarification, you can't do something like play your only spell (a Lightning Touch), on check one, draw a card, and get lucky enough for another Lightning Touch on check two. It keeps you from adding to your hand mid-encounter.
Thanks for weighing in. Ezren's examine power is specifically stated to trigger during "Apply any effects that happen after the encounter" step, so he is activating it during that step. And he can only activate it once during that part of the encounter. That's where my problem comes from.
It seems to me he could only ever use his power once during an encounter, because he is only allowed to activate it during that one step, and he can only activate it once in that step.
And if he plays a spell to evade his encounter, then the encounter ends immediately and he never gets to "Apply any effects that happen after the encounter".
See the issue?
Thanks Vic.
Perhaps the easiest fix would be to move the timing of Ezren's power to the Resolve phase? Every encounter gets resolved one way or another, after all.
Actually, every encounter doesn't include the resolve step. Resolve is what you do with the card if you succeed or failed the check to defeat/acquire. If you evade you don't resolve the encounter. Notice there is no mention of evade in the resolved step:
Resolve the Encounter. If you succeed at all of the checks required to defeat a bane, banish it; if you don’t succeed, it is undefeated— shuffle the card back into its location deck. If you succeed at a check to acquire a boon, put it in your hand; otherwise, banish it.
That's because the evade step has the instructions on what to do with the encountered card.
Evade the Card (Optional). If you have a power or card that lets you evade the card you’re encountering, you may immediately shuffle it back into the deck; it is neither defeated nor undefeated, and the encounter is over.
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1) You can use a power once per check / step, not once per encounter. If you cast Lightning Touch on check 1, your power procs. Then you play another Lightning Touch on check 2, and your power procs again.No. This was ruled on and clarified in the new iteration of the rules that Hawkmoon quoted. No matter how many arcane spells Ezren plays during a single encounter, his power only triggers once at the end of that encounter. Outside of an encounter, it would trigger with every arcane spell.
I think it's safe to say that if he evades via an arcane spell, he can trigger his ability.
Ah I didn't read the wording of his quote quite right. When I read it, I read it to mean that his power procs when you play the card, but you draw at the end. Which working like that, would result in two card draws. However, rereading, I do see that it says you actually use his power during that phase, allowing it only once, even if you found a way to drop 100 spells. I stand corrected.
Chief Technical Officer
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We're still examining it, but I can tell you that it fell out of the discussion that began here.
(That's a bit of a red herring, as it isn't directly referenced there, but it evolved from there.)
So, if I might ask, was the desire to make it clear that Ezren needs to attempt the recharge of a discard-to-play-spell like acid arrow before he can examine his deck?
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Chief Technical Officer
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The problem was this:
We specifically tell you that during an encounter you only get to activate powers that relate to the step you're on. And since Ezren's recharge power doesn't directly relate to any step, one could argue that you're not actually *allowed* to use his recharge power during an encounter. This was us finding a place to turn on that power. Unfortunately, the place I chose was too limiting—it should happen at the check level, not the encounter level.
The fix we're contemplating:
• Under Encountering a Card, change "Players may only play cards or activate powers that relate to each step" to "Players may only play cards or use powers that relate to each step, or relate to cards or powers played in the step."
• At the end of Attempt the Check, add "After you attempt the check, deal with any effects that were triggered by the check."
• Under Apply Any Effects That Happen After the Encounter, If Needed, delete "At this time, deal with any effects that were triggered by the checks. For example, if Ezren played a spell with the Arcane trait during the check, he may now use the power that allows him to examine the top card of his deck."
Note that this also means that recharging cards played during a check also moves to the end of each check instead of the end of the encounter; we also have to make adjustments in the example of play.
Anybody see any issues there? Especially, do you see ways to abuse "or relate to cards or powers played in the step"?
So, I don't see any possible abuse yet, though I'm still running through some things in my head. But I do have a few questions:
1. You said Ezren's recharge power, but did you mean his examine power?
2. I'm a bit confused by your statement "Note that this also means that recharging cards played during a check also moves to the end of each check instead of the end of the encounter; we also have to make adjustments in the example of play." I thought cards were always attempted to be recharged as part of the encounter.
Attempt the Next Check, If Needed. If another check is required, such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge, or if your bane requires a second check to defeat, resolve it now. Repeat this step until you have resolved all such checks.
3. What if Ezren plays a spell during the "Apply any effects that happen before the encounter" step? Like playing Mirror Image when the Scout deals him 1d4-1 ranged combat damage. There still doesn't quite seem to be a space for that still.
4. Can you explain when Valero's rechage-instead-of-discard power activates? Since they both use "When you play X you may Y" I thought that, time wise, they were triggered at the same time during an encounter. So I'm just wondering why the need to carve out space for Ezren, but not Valeros.
Thanks for letting us participate in your discussion.
Trying to read between the lines here - if the point is to get back to where Ezren can use his power immediately upon casting a spell (which is how most people probably play it anyway) instead of at some point later in the encounter, then that looks good. This also means he could go back to using his power during each step, if I understand this correctly.
Hmm... I guess I thought that "At the end of Attempt the Check, add 'After you attempt the check, deal with any effects that were triggered by the check.'" was being put in to specify when Ezren activates his power. And since that isn't in the non-Attempt-the-check steps, I didn't see space for him to activate his power. But I suppose it could also be understood to only need that space during a check and that during the other steps of the encounter it would also activate.
So, like in my example where he plays Mirror Image, he rolls the d4 to attempt to avoid the damage and then examines his deck?
Anybody see any issues there? Especially, do you see ways to abuse "or relate to cards or powers played in the step"?
My group has heavily playtested this version of the rules. It was the way that we expected/believed things to work and seems sensible. (Of course, that means that I can't really say that a card just got way better since for me it stayed the same.)
So, like in my example where he plays Mirror Image, he rolls the d4 to attempt to avoid the damage and then examines his deck?
When is 'after you play a spell'?
If the villain were dealing before-encounter combat damage and Ezren used Arcane Armor he would examine the top of his deck and recharge the spell with any recharge powers right away. (I'm not positive which order is intended between Ezren's power and recharging.) My belief is that recharges happen as soon as a spell completes execution; if it modifies a combat check then that will be after the dealing damage substep.
Mirror Image lasts until the end of the turn. Is it still being played until it is time to recharge it? Otherwise, do you peek at the deck before the first d4 roll?
I think that these questions affect Ezren and location powers; I don't think that they have a bearing on the revised encounter wording.
So, I guess I thought that "After you play a spell" meant after you pay the price (discard, display, whatever) and gain the benefit but before you continue with the rest of your turn, which may be continuing with the encounter..
So for the spells that say "Discard this card..." like Acid Arrow, I would have played Acid Arrow, attempted the combat check, attempted the recharge check, then examined Ezren's deck. I went with that order because I of the "Finishing one thing before you start another" another rule. So I have to finish fully playing Acid Arrow before I can examine Ezren's deck. And since playing it required a discard, and the recharge replaces the discard, the recharge relates to the action of playing it. So I do that before I examine.
For a spell like Mirror Image, I would play it, roll the 1d4, then examine Ezren's deck. The discard action here isn't a part of playing it. Its more of a mandatory instruction. I won't try to recharge it until the end of the turn, when I will have to discard it.
For a spell like Charm Person, I'd bury Charm Person, draw my ally, then examine Ezren's deck. (No recharge, so that one is a bit easier).
For a cloud spell, I display the cloud and immediately examine his deck. The benefit won't be gained until later. I'm only directed to display the card. And I'll attempt to recharge it at the end of the turn.
So, if recharge replaces discard, then I'd attempt the recharge check before Ezren's power if the discard was how I had to activate the power. If the discard isn't part of activating the power, but a later effect, then I'd perform Ezren's power as soon as I was done doing what ever the card said.
So my order would be the one below. I think this always works. You only do some of the steps if necessary/applicable. I'll mark those with *.
1. Pay price to play card.
2. Gain card's benefit/power.
3. *If card's price can be replaced by recharge, attempt recharge check.
4. Examine Ezren's deck.
5. *Gain repeated benefit from card later in turn.
6. *Apply card's end of the turn effect.
7. *If end of the turn effect can be replaced by recharge, attempt recharge check.
I hope I'm clear in what I'm trying to say here. That is how I saw his power working in my mind.
A card starts off in your hand. Then 'Playing a card means activating that card's power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card'. If you aren't displaying a card, it is in some sort of 'in play' state until you put it in its final destination. When its power is over you may be able to do a recharge check. Then I would assume that you would be in the 'after playing' state, allowing Ezren to use his peeking power after the recharge check. (The long play example in the rules supports that.)
Spells are only 'displayed' if you use the text in the FAQ (which we should). The original text either had them being put in front of you until end of turn or they had lingering effects after they were discarded/recharged. The 'in play' state isn't in the rules; it would be simpler if all cards were displayed until it was time to send them to their final destination.
On the spell Mirror Image, change the first power to the following:
"If a monster deals damage to you, you may display this card, even if you have played another spell on this check. Roll 1d4; on a result other than 1, reduce the damage to 0. Do this each time a monster deals damage to you. Discard this card at the end of the turn."
I assume that Hawkmoon269 is making the reasonable argument that once you have put a card on display it has reached its played destination (where it has ongoing effects), allowing you to use Ezren's power before the end of turn discard/recharge (which would no longer be part of playing the card).
Recharge this card and choose a character at your location to recharge 1 random card from his discard pile.
Which card is on the bottom if I used it on myself? Would it be different if the card said 'Recharge this card to choose ...'?
You (plural) got me confused... :)
So can you, or can you not examine multiple times if you've (legally) played several spells within the span of one encounter? (e.g. mirror image and acid arrow)
I assume that Hawkmoon269 is making the reasonable argument that once you have put a card on display it has reached its played destination (where it has ongoing effects), allowing you to use Ezren's power before the end of turn discard/recharge (which would no longer be part of playing the card).
Yeah, that is what I was trying to say.
The spells that have you discard to activate them and offer you the option of recharge are played as soon as they go into limbo. But I think that since recharge relates to the action you used to play them, you have to recharge before Ezren can examine.
The spells that have you display to activate them and then discard them at the end of the turn don't have the discard related to playing them. So recharge isn't related to the "playing action", its related to an "end of the turn effect". So there Ezren doesn't have to wait until recharging to examine his deck. He just has to finish whatever it was the spell directed him to do at the moment he activated it.
You (plural) got me confused... :)
So can you, or can you not examine multiple times if you've (legally) played several spells within the span of one encounter? (e.g. mirror image and acid arrow)
Well, right now, as written the rules seem to only let your examine 1 time in an encounter. What Vic is saying (I think) is that they want you to be able to examine multiple times in an encounter, but that they need to make sure it works right. So they are trying to figure out how to do that.
Doesn't this impact the thread where the poster kept ranting about the OP nature of Restoration. Seems like somewhere in there we argued that the power resolving at the end of the encounter rather than the check limited the OP nature of Restoration with the Wand of Minor Healing and the other very particular cards he required.
As Vic said, you can't do the Restoration loop during an encounter.
Also, the fact that the loop is done between encounters instead of during them makes it better than if it could only happen during an encounter, in my opinion. I don't know that it would really work at all if it could only happen during an encounter.
Finally, at the risk of straying too far off topic, the only cards really needed are two restorations and a staff of minor healing. That's hardly "very particular." The rest of the cards listed were to guarantee recharges or deal with very specific encounters; if you got your character up to sufficiently high stats you could recharge and deal with ~98% of all the banes with a general deck and not need the specific cards.
Seems like they are trying to firm up wording that will allow multiple peeks per encounter, but still only one per check.
This doesn't seem the way to go, to me. That would mean that you couldn't draw for both Acid Arrow and Mirror Image, because they're both played during the same check. Furthermore, what if you play Aid on your recharge check? Now it's a check within a check. Do you still get to peek for both Aid and the recharging card?
Well, Aid is Divine, so a bad example, but point still made. This is the reason I'm sure that its taking so long. They don't want corner cases. They want it streamlined.
I've had Aid cast by Ezren at least 3 times in one of my games. It's bizarre, but totally legal and does, in fact, happen. Now, not one of them was on a recharge check (what a waste!), but still.
And corner cases are a big deal, I think. Someone at some point is going to have that situation come up and they're going to want an answer. I'm sure I'm not the only one that hates it when I have to make a quick ruling because I don't know the right answer. Especially when I rule wrong.
Well, once per check has always been the rule, because of the structure of a check.
Could you expand upon what you mean by this? Unless it's the "one of each power per check" thing. In which case I'm mildly surprised. I suppose it makes sense to think of it that way, but I always just assumed that the "one power per check" thing was for activated abilities, not triggered abilities. Holdover from other card games, I guess.
Regarding your recharge check question, a recharge check is a check. You do recharge checks after the check during which you played the spell. If you play Aid during one, then you would peek after the check.
Interesting. I always made the recharge check as if it was a power on the card. So in this example, you could potentially lose aid to damage and not be able to use it to affect the recharge check, correct?
Sure he can cast it, and I don't have his card in front of me, but i'm pretty sure it says when you cast a spell with the Arcane trait, just not cast a spell? I could be wrong though.Well, Aid is Divine, so a bad example, but point still made. This is the reason I'm sure that its taking so long. They don't want corner cases. They want it streamlined.I've had Aid cast by Ezren at least 3 times in one of my games. It's bizarre, but totally legal and does, in fact, happen. Now, not one of them was on a recharge check (what a waste!), but still.
Oh, that's what you were saying. IDK, maybe, I don't remember. I also don't remember if my friend peeked when he played it. I just remember thinking it was funny that the arcane caster kept acquiring and casting a divine spell (yes, he banished it each time).
Regarding your recharge check question, a recharge check is a check. You do recharge checks after the check during which you played the spell. If you play Aid during one, then you would peek after the check.Interesting. I always made the recharge check as if it was a power on the card. So in this example, you could potentially lose aid to damage and not be able to use it to affect the recharge check, correct?
I'm not sure how it was in the first publication of the rules, but the second and third version had this covered in the Encountering a Card Sequence. Here is the middle part of the sequence from the third version, not that recharging a boon is covered in the "next check" part:
Attempt the Check. If the card is a boon, you may try to acquire it for your deck; if it’s a bane, you must try to defeat it (see Attempting a Check, below). If a card’s check section says “None,” look at the card’s powers, and immediately do whatever it says there.
Attempt the Next Check, If Needed. If another check is required, such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge, or if your bane requires a second check to defeat, resolve it now. Repeat this step until you have resolved all such checks.
The rules tell us to finish one thing before starting another. This means that all steps of a check must be completed before attempting another check. A recharge check is a full-fledged check. It's not a sub-check or mini-check or check-within-a-check; so you don't stop mid-check to recharge a spell. It immediately goes to your discard pile when cast (technically), then has a chance to go from your discard pile to the bottom of your deck after the check during which it was played is completed.
Actually, it doesn't technically go to your discard pile until you attempt the recharge check. Its is technically not counted as being anywhere.
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.
It is really not technically anywhere (its in limbo) until you get around to attempting the recharge check. If it were part of your discard pile and you failed a check again a monster that said "Bury 1d6 cards from your discard pile" you might have to bury it. This rule protects you from that.
such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge
This part was not there originally, it makes things rather clear.
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So, more on topic, playing both mirror image and force missle on the same check only lets you peek once because of the one power per check rule?
such as if you played a boon with a check to rechargeThis part was not there originally, it makes things rather clear.
[Part of this post edited out]
So, more on topic, playing both mirror image and force missle on the same check only lets you peek once because of the one power per check rule?
Yes. Right now the rules say that Ezren's power, when used during an encounter, is an "After the encounter" effect. And since no matter how many spells he plays, he can only use each power once during "Apply any effects that happen after the encounter" he can only activate his examine power one time. But it seems like Vic et al. are trying to fix that.
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.
That rule is also part of why I'm not sure Ezren's power needs all this help. The part about it being "in play" is what makes me feel like he doesn't reach "After you play a spell" until he attempts the recharge check for the "Discard/Recharge" spells, because he hasn't fully finished playing it yet until her attempts the recharge check.
The "Display now/Recharge at the end of your turn" spells are different. He finishes playing them as soon as he displays them and does what they tell him to do. If he plays one in the middle of a check (like a combat check where he plays strength) then I think it is clear he has to finish that check first before he can examine his deck.
That rule is also part of why I'm not sure Ezren's power needs all this help. The part about it being "in play" is what makes me feel like he doesn't reach "After you play a spell" until he attempts the recharge check for the "Discard/Recharge" spells, because he hasn't fully finished playing it yet until her attempts the recharge check.
I'm of the opinion that doing the recharge check of a spell is not part of "playing it".
Playing a card means activating that card’s power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card. Doing something with a card that does not activate that card’s power does not count as playing that card.
When you attempt a recharge check of a spell, you are not activating a "power". You've already activated the power at that point, so in my mind, you're done "playing" the card.
But it is a bit ambiguous. It could be that the act of revealing/displaying/discarding/recharging/burying/banishing is entwined with the concept of "playing a card", so maybe the card isn't considered "played" until you actually reveal/display/discard/recharge/bury/banish it. Under this interpretation, the fate of the card (discard or recharge) isn't determined until after you complete the recharge check, so it wouldn't be considered "played" until the recharge check is finished.
So basically, the question is, at what point is the act of "playing a card" complete? Immediately after the power is activated, or immediately when the card reaches its "destination" (e.g. you discard pile, bottom of your deck, back to the box, etc.) ?
That rule is also part of why I'm not sure Ezren's power needs all this help. The part about it being "in play" is what makes me feel like he doesn't reach "After you play a spell" until he attempts the recharge check for the "Discard/Recharge" spells, because he hasn't fully finished playing it yet until her attempts the recharge check.I'm of the opinion that doing the recharge check of a spell is not part of "playing it".
Playing a card means activating that card’s power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card. Doing something with a card that does not activate that card’s power does not count as playing that card.When you attempt a recharge check of a spell, you are not activating a "power". You've already activated the power at that point, so in my mind, you're done "playing" the card.
But it is a bit ambiguous. It could be that the act of revealing/displaying/discarding/recharging/burying/banishing is entwined with the concept of "playing a card", so maybe the card isn't considered "played" until you actually reveal/display/discard/recharge/bury/banish it. Under this interpretation, the fate of the card (discard or recharge) isn't determined until after you complete the recharge check, so it wouldn't be considered "played" until the recharge check is finished.
So basically, the question is, at what point is the act of "playing a card" complete? Immediately after the power is activated, or immediately when the card reaches its "destination" (e.g. you discard pile, bottom of your deck, back to the box, etc.) ?
I agree. Recharging it isn't playing it. But, like you asked, I think it hasn't really completed being played. If it is "in play" than you have you reached the "completed playing" point? You have to be careful though, because I assume the typical "Display" spells are also "in play" but you shouldn't have to wait to recharge them to activate Ezren's power.
I agree. Recharging it isn't playing it. But, like you asked, I think it hasn't really completed being played. If it is "in play" than you have you reached the "completed playing" point? You have to be careful though, because I assume the typical "Display" spells are also "in play" but you shouldn't have to wait to recharge them to activate...
So you're saying that a "discard to play" card with a recharge check would trigger Ezren's power AFTER the recharge check, but a "display to play and discard at the end of the turn" card with a recharge check would trigger Ezren's power BEFORE the recharge check?
I agree. Recharging it isn't playing it. But, like you asked, I think it hasn't really completed being played. If it is "in play" than you have you reached the "completed playing" point? You have to be careful though, because I assume the typical "Display" spells are also "in play" but you shouldn't have to wait to recharge them to activate...So you're saying that a "discard to play" card with a recharge check would trigger Ezren's power AFTER the recharge check, but a "display to play and discard at the end of the turn" card with a recharge check would trigger Ezren's power BEFORE the recharge check?
Yes. But I'm saying that is how I had understood it before the recent change. I'm not saying that is how it should have been. Just that is what I did. That is because a spell like Strength doesn't have you discard it to activate its power.
Playing a card means activating that card’s power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card....Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn’t involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power—it’s a mandatory action that you must take when you play the card.
So I saw Strength, for example, broken down like this
Strength
To activate this power: Display this card and select a character. For the rest of the turn, add 3 to that character's checks that use her Strength die.
Mandatory action you must take when playing this card: Discard this card at the end of the turn.
Recharge: Relates directly to the mandatory action, indirectly to the activation.
Ezren: Examine after display, but finish one thing before you start another, so if played while attempting a check finish the check first, then examine.
While for Acid Arrow it broke down like this:
Acid Arrow
To activate this power: For your combat check, discard this card to roll your Arcane die + 2d4 with the Acid trait.
Recharge: Relates directly to the activation.
Ezren: Examine after recharge. Finish one thing before you start another, you played the spell and its in limbo and needs to be taken care of. You definitely played the spell before you activated you power, so finish taking care of the spell via recharge check first, then activate the power.
But again, I want to be clear, I'm saying that is how I envisioned it before the v3 of the rulebook. And that is only how I envisioned it. I'm not saying that is how I should have been envisioning it. But I think it works well and takes care of the Ezren problem. You get to examine after you complete the part about activating the power. You have to get the spell out of discard/recharge limbo before you can activate his power.
I should note though, that this understanding allows Ezren with no character deck to examine and draw the recharged Acid Arrow. Though Ezren with no character deck is a host of other problems, so I'm not sure that is really an issue.
But again, just my view, not necessarily how you should play.
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Chief Technical Officer
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That rule is also part of why I'm not sure Ezren's power needs all this help. The part about it being "in play" is what makes me feel like he doesn't reach "After you play a spell" until he attempts the recharge check for the "Discard/Recharge" spells, because he hasn't fully finished playing it yet until her attempts the recharge check.I'm of the opinion that doing the recharge check of a spell is not part of "playing it".
Playing a card means activating that card’s power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card. Doing something with a card that does not activate that card’s power does not count as playing that card.When you attempt a recharge check of a spell, you are not activating a "power". You've already activated the power at that point, so in my mind, you're done "playing" the card.
But it is a bit ambiguous. It could be that the act of revealing/displaying/discarding/recharging/burying/banishing is entwined with the concept of "playing a card", so maybe the card isn't considered "played" until you actually reveal/display/discard/recharge/bury/banish it. Under this interpretation, the fate of the card (discard or recharge) isn't determined until after you complete the recharge check, so it wouldn't be considered "played" until the recharge check is finished.
So basically, the question is, at what point is the act of "playing a card" complete? Immediately after the power is activated, or immediately when the card reaches its "destination" (e.g. you discard pile, bottom of your deck, back to the box, etc.) ?
Recharge: This explains circumstances under which you may recharge the card—put it on the bottom of your deck—after playing it...
Recharging is not part of playing it.
Playing a card means activating that card’s power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card.
Once the power has been activated, the card has been played. You may have other things to do with it, but those things are not part of playing it.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Anybody see any issues there? Especially, do you see ways to abuse "or relate to cards or powers played in the step"?My group has heavily playtested this version of the rules. It was the way that we expected/believed things to work and seems sensible. (Of course, that means that I can't really say that a card just got way better since for me it stayed the same.)
I'm not concerned about the timing changes.
I'm concerned that the language "or relate to cards or powers played in the step" can be abused to play cards or activate powers that you think you maybe shouldn't be able to use during that step.
Put another way—what's the most broken thing you can think of to do that "relates to cards or powers played in a step"?
I'm not concerned about the timing changes.
I'm concerned that the language "or relate to cards or powers played in the step" can be abused to play cards or activate powers that you think you maybe shouldn't be able to use during that step.
Put another way—what's the most broken thing you can think of to do that "relates to cards or powers played in a step"?
One could argue that this allows healing cards to be played on cards played and discarded during the step.
Ok. So forget my problem with Ezren playing an Evade spell or a spell during "Before the Encounter" or "After the encounter". I re-read your proposal. I didn't see this clearly the first time. You basically will have 2 things:
The fix we're contemplating:
• Under Encountering a Card, change "Players may only play cards or activate powers that relate to each step" to "Players may only play cards or use powers that relate to each step, or relate to cards or powers played in the step."
• At the end of Attempt the Check, add "After you attempt the check, deal with any effects that were triggered by the check."
The first bullet means that no matter what step you play a spell in, you trigger Ezren's examine power.
The second bullet makes clear that, when you are at "Attempt the Check" you don't get to examine until after you've Attempted the Roll and Taken Damage If You Fail to Defeat a Monster. So basically, complete the check, then examine. Its just clarification for that particular step.
That means:
1. If I play Invisibility, Ezren examines after I shuffle the monster away and before he attempts the recharge.
2. If I play Acid Arrow, Ezren gets to examine after completing the whole combat check. Then he attempts to recharge Acid Arrow.
3. If I play Mirror Image to deal with the Scout's Before the Encounter ranged combat damage, I roll the 1d4 then examine, then attempt the recharge check, then attempt the combat check. Do I have that correct?
Note that this also means that recharging cards played during a check also moves to the end of each check instead of the end of the encounter; we also have to make adjustments in the example of play.
I think also misunderstood you here. Were you saying that before I would have done both combat checks for a 2 combat check villain before attempting to recharge spells played for each check? Or if I played Mirror Image during "Before the Encounter" I would have waited until after the combat check to recharge it? But now the recharge has to be dealt with first? If so, that is actually how I've been playing all along.
I still don't think I see a way to abuse "or relate to cards or powers played in the step". You still can't play Cure or Holy Candle or anything like that, because they don't relate. What about Token of Remembrance? Just because I discarded a spell doesn't mean Token of Remembrance now relates to a card played in the step, does it? I don't think so, but that is the best I've come up with for abusing it so far.
That would be a stretch. How would you argue it?One could argue that this allows healing cards to be played on cards played and discarded during the step.I'm not concerned about the timing changes.
I'm concerned that the language "or relate to cards or powers played in the step" can be abused to play cards or activate powers that you think you maybe shouldn't be able to use during that step.
Put another way—what's the most broken thing you can think of to do that "relates to cards or powers played in a step"?
Well, you're physically affecting the card if you're recharging it due to cure, or getting it back with a toad, or whatever.