Advice Please - Kingdom Building in Kingmaker


Kingmaker


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So we are playing the Kingmaker AP, using the original rules (not Ultimate Campaign) and we are about two years into the game and our kingdom is stalling due to a lack of Build Points.

Most of us are interested in verisimilitude, so we have been trying to build our city with an eye towards what you would "realistically" find in a frontier town - an inn, stables, smiths, shops, etc - and avoiding the crazy magic item producing caster's towers and such.

And this does not seem to be working. We have an economy bonus in the high 20s, so we generate about 7-8 BP a turn, and it takes almost 6 months to build enough to get us to the next threshold and gain a +5 Economy/+1 BP.

Without abandoning the original rules or heavily house ruling them, is there anyway to get a kingdom to work without engaging in what we feel is the highly "unrealistic" feeling magic item trade?

I have looked at some of the older threads, and it looks like the answer is "no" but I'm hoping maybe someone has some new advise.

Thanks

Steve W
Baltimore, MD


I would say use the UC rules, but that's not what you're looking for.

I think you might want to try grafting some of the UC bits onto the original rules. Among them, you might add trade routes, vassalage edicts, and trade routes with other kingdoms.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Pennywit

So far, the GM has been fairly adamant about only using the Core rulebook, so no Advanced Races, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, etc...

Maybe if I get enough "evidence" I can get him to let us switch to the new rules.

Thanks!


I would ask him to consider several things:

1) Using the Ultimate Campaign Kingdom-building rules (hereinafter, "UCKB Rules") does not give your characters any power that they didn't have before. This set of rules only covers the administration of a kingdom, not any other aspect of play.

2) Using the UCKB rules does not require him to use anything else beyond the core rulebooks.

3) The original Kingmaker rules (hereinafter, "OKM Rules") assume that players will use the magic item economy to keep their kingdom afloat financially. Because you have chosen not to use these magic-item buildings, you are not properly using the OKM Rules.

4) The UCKB Rules are a refinement of the OKM Rules, taking into account feedback from real-world groups that played through Kingmaker. They also tweaked the magic-item economy (items now belong to the businesses, not the kingdom) and allow a kingdom to gain more BP during the Upkeep Phase.

5) The UCKB Rules include new items that can make Kingdom-building more fun for the entire group, including Vassalage Edicts, Exploration Edicts, Diplomatic Edicts, and rules for trade routes.

6) Kingmaker groups have reported positive results from using the UCKB Rules instead of the OKM Rules.

7) You will steal the GM's munchies and not give them back until he concedes to the UCKB Rules.

Incidentally, my group is midway through RRR, and we've been using the UC rules from the beginning. The kingdom is now at 10 hexes. It's been touch and go occasionally, but the kingdom has generally stayed on an even financial kingdom. My players' biggest mistake was that they didn't develop their resources well enough and that they listened too much to their general when he demanded more military buildings.


My group is in middle of RRR with Kingdom of size 50+. We have been using original rules without magic item economy which I founded too strong and unrealistic.

Anyway, also in our game start of Kingdom is slow but if players put focus on economy it will speed up and actually I'm now starting to worry that Kingdom will generate too much income.

Would be interesting to hear comments from other GM how rules has been working on later phase of game.


The start is very slow, one thing though is build a castle in every town, 4 towers, as many walls then fill it with homes. If you would like a random town that is not worth it to defend build a town on like a swamp or something and make every square dumps and graveyards. It actually will benefit your BP. Send all your kingdoms trash there and all the dead. That way if any necromancers try to assault your kingdom from within you know where to go.


Given the situation, if you can't get your DM to adopt the UC rules - which, really, are the playtested version of the KM rules - you'll want to focus on getting your Economy up as cheaply as possible (Graveyards and Brothels are the way to go), and reducing your Consumption (build farms!). Depending on your Loyalty and Stability, you can maybe mess with your tax/holiday edicts to boost things in the short term.


Income > Economy.

Sawmills provide some of the best bang-for-buck in the system.

Don't forget Mines.

Mind your Consumption.

Don't tax your citizens at all-- bad trade-off.

Seek additional funds from your allies in loan, trade, or donation.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@ Erakki

How many months / years of game time did it take you to reach 50+ hexes. We are about 2 years in, and pretty much stalled at 7 hexes.

@ thebigragu

Looking at Mills, they are 6 BP for +1 Economy and +1 Stability. OK, but not spectacular unless I am missing something.

And so far we have only discovered 2 mines, a gold mine and a silver mine where the Kobolds are. The 2/5s of a BP the mines gives us is negligible.

@ Everyone

Thanks for the advice. Every bit helps!

Steve W
Baltimore, MD

Dark Archive

To repeat what everyone else has said, the Ultimate Campaign revision is SO MUCH BETTER than the rules originally published in Kingmaker.

That being said, if you want your kingdom to flourish, you HAVE to make sure you're pumping out as many build points as possible. As others have said, that is difficult without selling off magic items, but not impossible. Just build scads of whatever gives you cheap economy boosts.

Are you sure you guys are playing the rules right? A stagnant, two year old kingdom with seven hexes seems a bit off, as neither the kingdom building rules nor the Kingmaker AP itself are THAT harsh. A breakdown of your kingdom would be really interesting to see.

edit: You could suggest dividing the economy checks by 3 instead of five. That would help get things kick started. Or ask the GM if he can build an encounter where your party makes a diplomatic mission to Brevoy to ask for more BP.


Also - to build on what xn0o0cl3 has said above...
I've given my players treasure awards of BP, by way of finding old stores
of building equipment etc.


I had Irovetti visit their kingdom.

A herald announced his impending arrival and implied a feast would be appropriate.
The PCs decided to spend what little they had on the feast and Irovetti granted them a large boon of BP in honor of their alliance. Around 50BP or so. He claimed to need allies against their mutual neighbor Mivon. One of his confidants, Annamede Belevara, stayed behind as a liaison.

Movie plot spoiler:
His betrayal turned out to be even more epic. My justification is that he wanted them to do more of the grunt work in building their kingdom while he dealt with a minor Mivon issue. He planned on eventually waging war with them the moment after he arrived.


Not Mills. Sawmills (Terrain Improvements).


If that's all your mines are producing, reread Special Terrain: Resource. A mine built on a resource yields 2 BP per month in addition to + 2 Economy.


thebigragu, they're using the original KM rules, not the UC rules, as outlined in the original post. No sawmills, no mines.


Graveyard (for some reason), Tannery, Smith. Build those.

Also smack your GM on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and point him to the rules from UC which are available for free online (and legally!) at a popular SRD site.

The Kingdom building rules in Kingmaker rely on either unrealistic grinding of the magic item system or unrealistic mass building of cheap buildings.

Also provide a breakdown, I can't imagine how you're stalling out at 7 hexes, unless you're not filling all leadership positions and are taking massive penalties. Or maybe your GM is using some dumb "some buildings take multiple months to build" houserule.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I do not have all the papers in front of me, but here is what i have.

We have all Leadership positions filled, but since we are not Max'ers most of the Leadership bonuses are +2, with a few higher numbers.

We have seven hexes with 4 Farms, a Mine and a special Resource: Moon Radishes

We have Stables, Inn, Shrine, several Shops, several Houses and we just built something that gives us a medium magic item (but failed our Eco roll to sell!)

Economy bonus is about +22, so we generate 6-7 Build Points per turn.

We lost several blocks to a special event and had to rebuild a few buildings.

One house rule from our GM has been that selling minor magic items only generates BPs if they are worth 4000GP or more, otherwise we have to save up the GPs and add them to treasury once we get 4000.

I really think that if we can push hard on the Economy bonuses we can start to build up steam... I just hope we don't get attacked by anyone before then.

Steve W
Baltimore, MD


Yeah, your GM is basically hosing your kingdom's economy because of that change to minor items. Those extra 2 BP a month really help your kingdom start to run.

In any case, I would reccomend saving up BP's until you can afford the black market. The 50 BP will take about half a year if you can start to sell those medium magic items, but once you get it, you effectively get a free 15 BP every month.

The item selling only works once/city district/month, so then every other month you can found a new 'city' that only contains a caster tower.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Fafnir13 wrote:
One house rule from our GM has been that selling minor magic items only generates BPs if they are worth 4000GP or more...

This isn't a house rule. Under the "Sell Valuable Items" paragraph on page 64 of the Rivers Run Red book, it says you may attempt to sell items that cost over 4000gp.

Fafnir13 wrote:
...otherwise we have to save up the GPs and add them to treasury once we get 4000.

This, on the other hand, is a house rule in your favor. The book says nothing about item sales under 4000gp, so according to the RRR rules you wouldn't get anything from them. This is a pretty common house rule, though, and is supported by the developers.

Using the Kingmaker kingdom rules requires you to build a Magic Item economy to survive, which cuts down on realism - how many other kingdoms do you see thriving due to magic item sales? If you want realism, the Ultimate Campaign rules are the only way to go.

If your GM won't allow that, then you'll need to crank that Economy score higher so you can sell those magic items every month instead of once in a blue moon. As for these monster attacks and natural disasters a successful Stability check can lessen the impact or even negate the penalties completely. This makes Mills and Smithies very good investments because they're cheap and increase both Economy and Stability by 1.

Anyway, good luck keeping your kingdom afloat!

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