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I hate bowing out and bowing back in again, but hey I'm going to... :p
I definitely agree this needs fixing and needed it a while ago. I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. Omitting range and duration is serious (and seems to me to be easy to fix).
"James Jacobs
I'm pretty sure this thread has run it's course, especially considering it's now the weekend.
Let's all take a step away from the thread for a few days, folks, take some deep calming breaths, and then look forward to starting next week, hopefully, with an official response to the hex question. Continuing to argue here isn't gonna make that happen any faster, but I can certainly see it making things happen much slower."
From http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qqqi&page=2?How-are-people-supposed-to-tal k-to-Paizo-exactly
This seems to be directly at odds with whatever clarification you're referencing that states that preventing all damage stops all further effects. If, say, a high level winter witch rolled low on the 3d8 cold damage versus a tiefling, I could see said character not being hurt, but also being encased in ice if he failed the Fort save.
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease.
It's a bit of a general rule that anything that reduces damage to 0 also stops rider effects. Energy Resistance doesn't explicitly say it (except to say that if damage is reduced to 0, it won't interrupt a spell you're casting), so it's not a far stretch to say it applies just as Damage Reduction does (since it is essentially DR/Non-Energy).
I believe there's quotes from some of the devs confirming this, but don't quote me on that (quoting them would be helpful though if anyone knows where the quote[s] are).
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"James Jacobs
I'm pretty sure this thread has run it's course, especially considering it's now the weekend.
Let's all take a step away from the thread for a few days, folks, take some deep calming breaths, and then look forward to starting next week, hopefully, with an official response to the hex question. Continuing to argue here isn't gonna make that happen any faster, but I can certainly see it making things happen much slower."
From Link Fixed
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Well, that thread was entirely unnecessary in a number of ways. Don't think I'll be bumping that one.
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease.It's a bit of a general rule that anything that reduces damage to 0 also stops rider effects. Energy Resistance doesn't explicitly say it (except to say that if damage is reduced to 0, it won't interrupt a spell you're casting), so it's not a far stretch to say it applies just as Damage Reduction does (since it is essentially DR/Non-Energy).
I believe there's quotes from some of the devs confirming this, but don't quote me on that (quoting them would be helpful though if anyone knows where the quote[s] are).
Wow, I wasn't aware DR preventing secondary effects was a 'not always just mostly' thing.
The real question is this: is the paralysis and unconsciousness from the Ice Tomb hex 'triggered' due to the damage? From the language involved, that doesn't seem certain.
As are most other things about it...
It doesn't have the usual text of "If the target takes damage it is also..." or something similar though, just "It does damage, save for half. If it fails the save, it's paralyzed and unconscious", so MAYBE not?
Well, that other thread was locked down after too much drama occurred in a confined space. So, as per JJ's request, we've all simmered down, let's get this bumped back up so it's (maybe) on Paizo's radar again.
EDIT: Well, apparently the thread was unlocked, because I forgot Paizo can do that. Stupid me. Anyways, SKR indicated they're looking at errating this hex mess, so ignore this post, everyone.
In case it is helpful to anyone looking for a reasonable set of house rules for it while you wait for the incoming Paizo response, here's what I sent to my players. I realize this won't help for PFS folks and there may be some minor contradictions with other rules, but I think this will work well for our game.
1) Range should be 60 feet. This puts it in line with other targeted major hexes. (This is better than what we assumed on Saturday.)
2) Duration is tricky - I will say arbitrarily that in normal conditions, after 10 minutes the ice will melt enough to free the creature. In hot conditions, it will take 1 minute, possibly less if you're in a volcano or something. In freezing conditions, the ice will last a very long time.
3) A creature that fails the save but takes no damage from the cold for whatever reason (immunity, cold resistance, etc. - but also see note #4 below) will not be entombed; instead it will be entangled for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifier or until the ice takes 20 points of damage. The same thing applies to creatures who are immune to paralysis; they take the cold damage and are entangled but cannot be paralyzed or rendered unconscious by the effect.
4) The hex cannot target objects, thus creatures that are immune to Fortitude effects by virtue of having no Constitution score (primarily undead and constructs) are unaffected. Incorporeal creatures and creatures with the Cold subtype cannot be affected at all.
5) Magical fire sources held or emanated by the creature affected will deal double damage each round to the ice, which will generally free them pretty quickly (for example, a flaming sword or a fire elemental's body.) Non-magical fire sources (like a held torch) will instead be extinguished.
6) Creatures other than the entombed one can attempt to free it, either by dealing damage to the ice or by attempting to break it. Damage in excess of the 20 points needed to break the ice is dealt to the creature. The break DC for the ice is 10 + 1/2 your caster level + your intelligence modifier.
7) Attacks and/or coup de grace attempts made against entombed targets must do enough damage to penetrate the ice and only damage dealt to the creature counts for the Fortitude DC required to survive. For example, a crit that does 40 damage on a coup attempt against an entombed creature with 15 hit points of ice remaining would have a Fort DC of 35 (10 + the 25 points of damage actually dealt to the creature.) If it survives, it would be free of the ice but would still suffer the aftereffects of the hex (staggered for 1d4 rounds).
8) Creatures rendered unconscious by ice tomb do not drop items in hand and do not fall prone.
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Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rt3
Witch, Ice Tomb Hex: What is the range of this hex? Can it affect objects? Does the target need to drink? Can it affect a cold-immune creature? If the target succeeds at its save, is it still imprisoned? How long does it last?
Like most major hexes, the range is 60 feet.
In the second printing of Ultimate Magic, the text says, "A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the creature...," so it only affects creatures, not objects.
The target doesn't need to eat, breathe, or drink.
The general assumption for effects is if the creature negates the damage from the effect, the creature isn't subject to additional effects from that attack (such as DR negating the damage from a poisoned weapon, which means the creature isn't subject to the poison). Therefore, a cold-immune creature takes no damage from the hex and can't be imprisoned by it.
A target that succeeds at its save takes half damage and is not imprisoned.
Under temperate conditions, the ice lasts 1 minute per witch level. In tropical environments it might only last half as long. In cold environments where ice and snow persist without melting, it might last indefinitely.
Future printings of Ultimate Magic will incorporate these clarifications.
I'm pleasantly surprised by this clarification. Thank you, Paizo.
Thanks, design team. Very clear.
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Pathfinder design team, you are amazingly awesome. Very concise and clear ruling. On behalf of anyone who whined in this thread or earlier threads, thank you, and sorry.
Yeah, it's an unfortunate precedent. Hopefully people take it the right way ("hey look, they're working on FAQs, it just takes longer than anyone would like. Best to be patient") rather than the wrong way.
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Yeah, it's an unfortunate precedent. Hopefully people take it the right way ("hey look, they're working on FAQs, it just takes longer than anyone would like. Best to be patient") rather than the wrong way.
I would think this particular issue may have eroded their patience to the point that any repeat of it will result in thread-locking sooner rather than later.
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Personally, considering it's SKR's last day, I took it as "answering this FAQ is literally the last thing I do." ;)
I think the best part of this FAQ is this line: "The general assumption for effects is if the creature negates the damage from the effect, the creature isn't subject to additional effects from that attack".
Now whenever I say this and somebody asks me "Where do the rules say that?" I actually have a very simple line to point to instead of saying "Well there's DR and energy resistance that do it..."
=)
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Yeah, it's an unfortunate precedent. Hopefully people take it the right way ("hey look, they're working on FAQs, it just takes longer than anyone would like. Best to be patient") rather than the wrong way.
While the thread probably needed locked originally do to people getting out of hand, lets instead choose to look at this as "The Pathfinder Design Team is busy and is probably working on other issues, but if enough people are interested in seeing a particular issue resolved, they will get around to it as soon as they can."
So maybe in the future a more civilized thread of similar length/interest could also help the design team to identify issues in the rules that the players as a whole care about.
Anyway, excellent work PDT. That is exactly the kind of clarity Ice Tomb needed.