communism
That never stops being funny.
No, wait, I meant 'starts'.
I guess calling things Nazi is too mainstream for the Internet anymore.
Your Paladin is not overpowered, he is powered just right. Those are the stats you rolled, and that's it. Everybody calling you OP is wrong, keep doing what you're doing.
Those stats aren't crazy. We play with rolling for stats all the time, and it only really matters much at low level if you have high stats.
Comments like "rebuild as a commoner with a greatclub" are off-base in my opinion, as by 10th level you'd be pretty sucktacular, and the rest of the party will now make you look like a wuss.
It's probably an issue of party builds. I've seen some woefully awful builds in our local group, and outshone them with lower stats and not really trying (and I'm not a great optimizer). I think the best bet would be to direct the other players here for some help on their builds. That way everyone gets a bit better, the GM ups the power of the encounters a bit, and everyone gets to feel like kick-butt heroes.
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Comments like "rebuild as a commoner with a greatclub" are off-base in my opinion, as by 10th level you'd be pretty sucktacular, and the rest of the party will now make you look like a wuss.
That was *mostly* in jest, but for the first five levels, there really isn't much difference between a commoner with whose stats and a two-handed weapon and a paladin with those stats and a two-handed weapon. Commoner wouldn't have armor prof without spending his feat, would have two points lower BAB, and would have a few less HP. That's it. (edit: and lower saves)
I have played NPC classes as a PC in games, and while you do lose power compared to a PC class, it isn't that much. 90% of the power a low lever character has is based on his ability scores, not class abilities.
As you level up, class abilities become more important, and it evens out somewhere between levels 7-12. But for a level 3 character, That rolled stat spread is bringing more power than the class benefits of any class levels he has.
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Legalistic is indeed, a good choice for the Paladin.
Choosing your Mystery, depends on the new roll you want to fill.
If healing is your focus, then Life Mystery can't be beat.
You could go Lore Mystery, and be more of a problem solver.
In the end, you don't need to cripple yourself, but just move in a different direction.
In the end, you don't need to cripple yourself, but just move in a different direction.
That really is the key. The idea of cutting your own stats or similarly gimping yourself deliberately is dumb, but choosing to multiclass, especially to a caster in a party with no casters, or choosing a different fighting style are both things that can be done to make the character mesh with the group better while retaining the character's strengths if done correctly.
That really is the key. The idea of cutting your own stats or similarly gimping yourself deliberately is dumb,
Since I did this recently myself, allow me to say 'gee, thanks'.
90% of the power a low lever character has is based on his ability scores, not class abilities.
As you level up, class abilities become more important, and it evens out somewhere between levels 7-12. But for a level 3 character, That rolled stat spread is bringing more power than the class benefits of any class levels he has.
With martials, absolutely. You don't have enough base attack yet to matter compared to STR, etc. With casters, not so much. A Heavens Oracle pretty much depends on his color spray, for example. Now, having awesome stats means that he isn't as frail at low levels either, so it's still a good thing, but it's not like you'd abandon your go-to attack because you can also swing a weapon decently.
Since I did this recently myself, allow me to say 'gee, thanks'.That really is the key. The idea of cutting your own stats or similarly gimping yourself deliberately is dumb,
As a general rule, I personally try to avoid this kind of solution unless other solutions have been tried and failed. Others may have different mileage.
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I've become extermely partial to generous point buy (25-30) with hard caps on maximums and minimums. Be MAD friendly without the starting 20s that SAD classes will have in such a situation. As much as I like the excitement of rolling for stats, if balance is your objective it simply doesnt work.
This. For example, I do 25 point buy, max 16, minimum 10, with one score allowed to go to 8 (all before racial mods). I think this works very well to create heroically powered PCs and enable MAD classes without messing with primary stat assumptions.
As a general rule, I personally try to avoid this kind of solution unless other solutions have been tried and failed. Others may have different mileage.Since I did this recently myself, allow me to say 'gee, thanks'.That really is the key. The idea of cutting your own stats or similarly gimping yourself deliberately is dumb,
I did it before the game even started. Besides being crazy (nothing under a 14), I couldn't possibly justify my character concept with those stats.
Which, in fairness, is why you should wait until stats are rolled before choosing a concept. ;D
Oh yeah, that would probably help haha'
Human Paladin level 3
HP: 41
AC: 18STR: 20
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 15
WIS: 12
CHA: 17Feats: Cleave, Power Attack, Arisen
Weapons just that +1 Greatsword from the first post, and armour the breastplate for a +6 to AC.
Woo rolling for stats and HP!
Compare your stats to a 20 point buy paladin with PFS health rules
HP: 22
AC: 17
STR: 18
DEX: 12
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 16
PATHFINDER 2.0: All d20 rolls now follow a simple pattern of being one point higher than the previous roll. In addition, class variation in a party is now banned. This is to protect players from any possible source of imbalance.
Which, in fairness, is why you should wait until stats are rolled before choosing a concept. ;D
Don't roll for stats if you value inter-party balance.
If you don't care about things like that, then go nuts!
I don't like rolled HP. It leads to scenarios where a Wizard with good rolls can beat the Barbarian in HP.
I always do Average rolls, rounded up.
I didn't read the whole topic, but what exactly does the rest of the party look like to make a guy with a two hander and Power Attack look godlike? It's not like that's super optimized. That's 100% standard damage.
Which, in fairness, is why you should wait until stats are rolled before choosing a concept. ;DA flawless, perfect character with no weakness is not interesting. No, not even then.
When did I contradict that? I said you should wait until stats are rolled before choosing a concept.
Also, you're wrong. A character can have all good stats and still be flawed, the same way a character can have all good stats and be Chaotic Evil.
Which, in fairness, is why you should wait until stats are rolled before choosing a concept. ;DDon't roll for stats if you value inter-party balance.
If you don't care about things like that, then go nuts!
One, balance is usually overrated, next to impossible to achieve even with point buy, and far too often leads to bland, largely uninteresting characters. There are times where it's a necessary consideration, but it should never be the only one. Two, it's not that hard to run a group with varying levels of power if you include a wide variety of encounters and have the NPCs react to the different race and class choices of the players, ensuring that high stats or low stats are only part of the equation of how encounters play out; in combat, using the environment and a mixture of tactics and enemies also keeps things from easily being dominated by one character. Throw a swarm or a neutral flying creature at this paladin and suddenly the game changes dramatically.
I did it before the game even started. Besides being crazy (nothing under a 14), I couldn't possibly justify my character concept with those stats.As a general rule, I personally try to avoid this kind of solution unless other solutions have been tried and failed. Others may have different mileage.Since I did this recently myself, allow me to say 'gee, thanks'.That really is the key. The idea of cutting your own stats or similarly gimping yourself deliberately is dumb,
Doing it before the game during character creation I can see, especially if the group is building the party all together; the characters are still in the formative stage, so there's a lot more room to tinker with every aspect of them. I still wouldn't force a player to do it, but it's not changing something already basically hardcoded into the character when nothing is to that level of development yet.
In this scenario though, and many other scenarios this discussion comes up, the characters are not only already created, but have gone through several adventures. Deciding at that point that a stat needs to be dropped down probably isn't the best solution unless a change in basic tactics or other minor tweaks have already been tried; even discussions on multiclassing need to focus on to preserve what has already been established ingame about the character rather than simply being a quick attempt to deal with something that may or may not still be a problem 5 levels down the road.
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Oh yeah, that would probably help haha'
Human Paladin level 3
HP: 41
AC: 18STR: 20
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 15
WIS: 12
CHA: 17Feats: Cleave, Power Attack, Arisen
Weapons just that +1 Greatsword from the first post, and armour the breastplate for a +6 to AC.
This is slightly overpowered relative to a 20pt PFS build, but not exceptionally so. Versus evil, your attacks are even with a halfling "chaladin" with Weapon Finesse, but your saves will be -3 or -4 behind his and and armor-class even farther behind. Against non-evil, you're not better than a 20pt human fighter or barbarian past 5th level (and will fall increasingly behind them at high level).
Enjoy 3rd-level -- your are the champ here. At 4th and 5th, the fighter has WF/WS/WT all lined up, and at 6th or 7th he buys Gloves of Dueling for +4/+5 to *all* attacks/damage with his primary weapon versus every target. I.e., he could be STR:14 and clubbing like he was STR:22.
Which, in fairness, is why you should wait until stats are rolled before choosing a concept. ;D
Not the way I do things.
One, balance is usually overrated, next to impossible to achieve even with point buy, and far too often leads to bland, largely uninteresting characters. There are times where it's a necessary consideration, but it should never be the only one. Two, it's not that hard to run a group with varying levels of power if you include a wide variety of encounters and have the NPCs react to the different race and class choices of the players, ensuring that high stats or low stats are only part of the equation of how encounters play out; in combat, using the environment and a mixture of tactics and enemies also keeps things from easily being dominated by one character. Throw a swarm or a neutral flying creature at this paladin and suddenly the game changes dramatically.
Bland or uninteresting characters are the results of factors beyond the control of stats and mechanics. What makes a character interesting or not is mostly controlled by the level of engagement by the player and their ability to craft interesting reactions or backstory. Good or bad stats, balanced or unbalanced party mixture has no affect on it; it's just impacting your personal preference not to engage. Some people disengage when they have low stats; some people disengage when they realize they have to try extra hard just to be average; some people disengage when they perceive they're missing out in the name of "balance" (whether they actually lose or gain anything or not).
I have run games with varying levels of party balance (I usually try to enforce it), and I can safely say I have never had a bland or uninteresting PC, ever.
Our group usually just does max health.
One, balance is usually overrated, next to impossible to achieve even with point buy, and far too often leads to bland, largely uninteresting characters. There are times where it's a necessary consideration, but it should never be the only one. Two, it's not that hard to run a group with varying levels of power if you include a wide variety of encounters and have the NPCs react to the different race and class choices of the players, ensuring that high stats or low stats are only part of the equation of how encounters play out; in combat, using the environment and a mixture of tactics and enemies also keeps things from easily being dominated by one character. Throw a swarm or a neutral flying creature at this paladin and suddenly the game changes dramatically.Bland or uninteresting characters are the results of factors beyond the control of stats and mechanics. What makes a character interesting or not is mostly controlled by the level of engagement by the player and their ability to craft interesting reactions or backstory. Good or bad stats, balanced or unbalanced party mixture has no affect on it; it's just impacting your personal preference not to engage. Some people disengage when they have low stats; some people disengage when they realize they have to try extra hard just to be average; some people disengage when they perceive they're missing out in the name of "balance" (whether they actually lose or gain anything or not).
I have run games with varying levels of party balance (I usually try to enforce it), and I can safely say I have never had a bland or uninteresting PC, ever.
The problem is that you are in the minority if that is the case. Point buy in my experience is not a direct problem by itself, but it tends to be easily abused by those of lack that level of engagement and don't care how much it potentially limits the engagement level of the others at the table. A good DM can use either point buy or rolling and make it work, but I've seen too many DMs that are just as lazy as the players and think that point buy solves all their problems and that they don't need to do any extra effort because of it. I agree that it isn't strictly a problem of mechanics or stats, but certain mechanics tend to be easier to hide behind than others when making excuses, and point buy is definitely high on the list of easily abused systems.