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This dude may well be a great actor, but he doesn't look like Johnny Storm. So, he'll either have to follow in Jessica Alba's footsteps and change his appearance to match the character he's portraying (hands up if you think he'll 'white up' for the role!), or the director, instead of casting one of loads of actors who are good enough AND resemble Johnny Storm, he changed the character just so his mate could get the part!
And that would be unacceptable. The Fantastic Four are not his characters to do whatever he wants with. He's been entrusted to tell a story about The Fantastic Four, not make a film that his mates can be in at the expence of the characters he's been entrusted with.
he changed the character just so his mate could get the part!.
It's not what know, it's who you know
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Haven't you heard? "It is no longer acceptable to cast cross-racially..."
And DM, your attempts to dismis any disagreement with 'you're racist' are cute, really. Ineffective and offensive, but cute.
Edit: Hat Tip, gaypatriot.net
I'm not sure that asking a black actor to wear make-up to make him appear white is the way forward.
Hey! It worked in Iron Sky! :p
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There's a lot of neat stuff out there about biracial actors who can play white or black roles.
Looking at how 'white' or 'black' some of them appear, it's pretty easy to see how a 'black-looking' biracial Johnny could be the biological full brother of a 'white-looking' biracial Sue. Or half-siblings. Or one (or both!) is adopted. No big, really.
I do find the rush for inclusiveness in the comics to be a bit funny, or, perhaps, desperate.
Iron Man's mom (who we never see and is about as important to his story as the name of the hospital he was born in) is named Maria and therefore must be Hispanic, making Tony biracial! See how progressive we are? Iron Man's been biracial since the '60s and nobody even noticed!
Gambit kissed someone once who had been gender-swapped, and therefore is totally LBGTwhatever! 'Cause that's totally how it works. You kiss a guy (even one shapechanged into a woman, who will never be seen again) one time, and you've got the gay on you and it never comes off. Woo. Inclusiveness!
Anywho, Johnny's race is and always has been *less* relevant to the FF plot than Reed's mission to beat the Soviets into space (which has been abandoned) or Reed & Ben's WW2 era military service (also, ancient history) or Sue running her own company ('distaff member' does what?). It's more in line with Ben's Jewishness, which you can read about online or in Marvel Handbooks, but is less likely to be referenced in a comic than the word 'tintinabullation.'
Well, this movie looks to be so much fail already...
It's not a racism thing, it's just poor casting choices ALL around.
Ben Grimm is a 100 lb guy (soaking wet)?
Siblings that go against the genetic norms (supposedly it's because they are adopted siblings...which is only against the entirety of comic canon for the FF since the beginning).
And...for those comparing gender switches...Dr. Doom...supposedly is going to be female.
If they can't even get the casting right...I have a huge feeling this script will make the 90's unreleased version seem like Shakespeare in comparison...not to mention the previous FF films to seem like genius cinematography in relation.
As for adding the token minority...if they really wanted to include racial diversity on the team...they should have made Ben Grimm African American, or Reed Richards...OR...simply make BOTH Sue and Johnny African American. At least have something make more sense than saying...we have a black and white brother and sister from the same family.
That's not called racism to have your thoughts go????
Rather it's called...with so many other options available...why in the world do this casting this way?
Mixed. Families.
What planet are you from where mixed families are harder to believe than superpowers?
And in what kind of bizarro dimension do you live where you can imagine a Hollywood blockbluster being able to present a mixed family without making a big mess about it and wasting a third of a movie on a subplot to explain a change that isn't even important or necessary to the story? Is the sky orange over there? Is the moon made of actual cheese? Whch kind? How are you even acessing the internet of a different dimension?
Not sure if anyone else posted this, but here's a bit of insight as to the FF casting choices(and super hero movies in general).
Long story short, Fox is aiming at the largest demographic possible, and source material is taking a back seat. The FF comics aren't all that popular these days, so Fox is trying to minimize risk. So yeah, total pandering, and comic fans can go fly a kite.
I think I'll pass.
The subtle racism of believing that black people should only appear in black narratives.
I'm torn because part of me thinks that this is the case with SOME of the protests here. But on the other hand I do get where some of the people who are protesting this are coming from.
I'd be more inclined to be more sympathetic with the protesters if I didn't see the thing that I quoted put into play every time a black character was put into a place of prominence or the spotlight in mainstream superhero comics (Miles Morales as the New Ultimate Spider-Man, John Stewart used in the JL animated series instead of Hal Jordan for starters. Or even the outrage of T'challa marrying Storm...).
I've said this before and I'm sticking with it. I feel that the comicbook fandom is horribly racist. And it's not the racism of sheet wearing, cross burning church burning and lynching. It's the racism of out of sight out of mind and everything has it's place...as long as their place is OVER THERE.
I dont think that the problem these days are the creators (see Bendis, Busiek, Hickman and Brubaker in terms of their depictions of black male characters in some of their books). It's the extremely narrow minded fandom.
Bendis insistence of placing Luke Cage as leader of the New Avengers, Busiek having a living breathing city in ASTRO CITY and understanding that that city doesn't just mean White Men and White Women. His depiction of Jack-in-the-Box and the two Willams Brothers (Charles and Royal) during the 16 part Dark Age arc. Hickman has seeded Black Panthers importance in the tail end of his FF run and has make him a prominent fixture in his NEW AVENGERS run. And Brubaker's CRIMINAL understands that same thing that Busiek did with Astro City, you cant have a white washed city of grime and corruption. Jake Brown and to an extent his father Clevon are part of that grime and corruption.
And the for the most part, these writers write these characters as ACTUAL living breathing people and not like some suburban white 13 year old male's impression of what a black male is supposed to sound like (See Brian Azzerello's Cage Mini series or 100 Bullets.)
Again it's not the creators in a lot of cases these days, it's the fandom. And nothing is going to change that no matter how good the character or the creative team or the actual book is. There is or seems to be be a functional disconnect between black characters (espeically black male characters. Black female characters are fetishized (is this even a word?) or fall under a banner of feminism (although apparently not all the time...))and white comic readers. Which is unfortunate as I can associate with almost anyone. But seeing someone who looks like me does go a long way with making me feel included...
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sigh... let's cast Jack Nicholson present day as the prostitute in the reboot of "Pretty Woman" sigh major sigh... sigh again... oh, and Richard Gere will now be played by Richard GereGood to know different races are the same thing as different genders.
I'm glad you fail to see the point of my post
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I've said this before and I'm sticking with it. I feel that the comicbook fandom is horribly racist. And it's not the racism of sheet wearing, cross burning church burning and lynching. It's the racism of out of sight out of mind and everything has it's place...as long as their place is OVER THERE.
I disagree. I think the fandom is resistant to ALL change and racism has little or nothing to do with it.
And the for the most part, these writers write these characters as ACTUAL living breathing people and not like some suburban white 13 year old male's impression of what a black male is supposed to sound like (See Brian Azzerello's Cage Mini series or 100 Bullets.)
Again, I disagree. I think the problem is older, more set-in-their ways comic book fans. In fact I think part of the reason comic books are a dying medium is because they continue to cater to an older fan-base. Children are no longer the target audience.
In my experience, kids tend to be way more open-minded and accepting of each other. My (white) daughter's best friend in kindergarten was a black boy. To her, he just happened to have different color skin from her. It didn't, and still doesn't, matter to her in the slightest.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd be more inclined to be more sympathetic with the protesters if I didn't see the thing that I quoted put into play every time a black character was put into a place of prominence or the spotlight in mainstream superhero comics (Miles Morales as the New Ultimate Spider-Man, John Stewart used in the JL animated series instead of Hal Jordan for starters. Or even the outrage of T'challa marrying Storm...).
You might want to check the outrage...
"I've said this before and I'm sticking with it. I feel that the comicbook fandom is horribly racist."
I am amused that the one making the accusations of 'racism' is the one on the thread guilty of generalizing a group of people and assuming the group is someone wrong.
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Not sure if anyone else posted this, but here's a bit of insight as to the FF casting choices(and super hero movies in general).
Long story short, Fox is aiming at the largest demographic possible, and source material is taking a back seat. The FF comics aren't all that popular these days, so Fox is trying to minimize risk. So yeah, total pandering, and comic fans can go fly a kite.
I think I'll pass.
I think this article puts the real culprits on the hot seat: the executives. They will do these casting switches to net the most money. Pure and simple. And they will in the same breath gain followers that will defend their choice stoically in the name of "not appearing racist". Canon, existing comic book fans, etc. have nothing to do with this decision process.
I'll be the first to say that if someone ever casts a white guy or asian guy or anything else than a big brawny black guy as Luke Cage, I will definitely ban that movie for all time (i.e. I will not even watch it on NETFLIX!!!!)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think this article puts the real culprits on the hot seat: the executives. They will do these casting switches to net the most money. Pure and simple. And they will in the same breath gain followers that will defend their choice stoically in the name of "not appearing racist". Canon, existing comic book fans, etc. have nothing to do with this decision process.
I'll be the first to say that if someone ever casts a white guy or asian guy or anything else than a big brawny black guy as Luke Cage, I will definitely ban that movie for all time (i.e. I will not even watch it on NETFLIX!!!!)
It makes it worse in a way, since it reduces people to checkboxes. "Ok, we need a black guy, and a chick..."
In fact if the execs had decided "We can recast The Human Torch as a black guy, for demographics" That might have kept them from hiring the best guy for Reed richards, because their bean counters said "And we need a white guy."
I'd be more inclined to be more sympathetic with the protesters if I didn't see the thing that I quoted put into play every time a black character was put into a place of prominence or the spotlight in mainstream superhero comics (Miles Morales as the New Ultimate Spider-Man, John Stewart used in the JL animated series instead of Hal Jordan for starters. Or even the outrage of T'challa marrying Storm...).
You might want to check the outrage...
There was a lot of outrage that 'this white guy' was playing Green Lantern specifically because John Stewart was teh GL that more people knew, thanks to the DCAU. The T'Challa/Storm marriage was protested, not because of the colour of his skin. (really reaching there) It was because it was a relationship that came out of nowhere. A lot of people found it offensive because it appeared Quesadia wanted 'the two black icons to marry each other.' even though there was no history. "I've said this before and I'm sticking with it. I feel that the comicbook fandom is horribly racist."
I am amused that the one making the accusations of 'racism' is the one on the thread guilty of generalizing a group of people and assuming the group is someone wrong.
EDIT: I'll check my outrage when you acknowledge that the initial uproar of John Stewart being the Green Lantern in the animated series was actually a thing that was a big deal and well...HAPPENED. You know instead of glossing it over. This is part of what I'm talking about.
PLEASE. An outrage over HAL JORDAN being the Green Lantern? I really must have missed that one. Not saying it didnt happen. But had to have been the exception rather than the rule of the reaction of comic book fans had John Stewart been cast...
The protest over T'challa and Storm being married had everything to do with the white male readers "ownership" of Storm as a character and not wanting her to be married off to another Black Male character. You may not have been on Newsarma and Comic Book Resources Message Boards during that time, but I WAS. And yeah there was definitely some less than nice things said regarding that relationship and who she SHOULD be with. I'll give you a hint: their names rhyme with SMULVERINE and GEORGE...
And Finally:
You can be amused all you want. The whole "hey you're pointing out racism means YOU'RE the racist" thing is also pretty tired and old. I'm pretty used to that tactic Matthew. If you're trying to Slut Shame me (is there a term for what you're trying to do in regards to race? Probably not...) you might want to try another tact.
This is me, as a black man of 42 years, having been reading comics since I was six and being involved in comic book fandom saying this. This is not me being hyperbolic. This is me having gone to conventions and being around OTHER FANS since I was around 14 here in NYC. So you'll excuse me if I take your defense of comic fandom with a grain of...well...NOTHING.
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Again, I disagree. I think the problem is older, more set-in-their ways comic book fans. In fact I think part of the reason comic books are a dying medium is because they continue to cater to an older fan-base. Children are no longer the target audience.
As part of that older fanbase, who has many longboxes of comics from the 80s, 90s, etc. and yet cannot find a single comic to put on my pull-list (after decades of having over a dozen monthly must-haves), I can assure you, I'm not being catered to.
We've been pretty much abandoned, most decisively by DC, that attempted to streamline their continuity once with Crisis on Infinite Earths, only to get a little shaky on the dismount, and has decided instead to throw it out completely with the New 52.
If I were being catered to, there's be a lot more one-and-done storylines, in which all sorts of stuff happens *in a single issue,* and huge mega-events, like the Great Darkness Saga, or the Judas Contract, might take *four whole issues,* and not six issues of talky-talk *just to set up* (and then end with a bunch of super-peeps leaping at each other in a two page spread, in lieu of an actual *action scene*). There'd be about 600% less murderous killing sprees of teenaged heroes, and infinity percent less people being raped and set on fire.
And there's still be some black Avengers, like the Black Panther, like the Falcon, like Monica Rambeau (whatever the heck she's calling herself this week), like actually existed in the 'old days' in the comics, and have yet to appear in the shiny new cinematic Marvel universe.
Heck, the shiny new cinematic Avengers-verse couldn't even have a super-powered *woman* in it, so any notion that the stuff 'catering to' the younger demographic and not us old fogeys is somehow more inclusive (despite having less super-powered women *and* less black / Asian / etc. characters than almost any iteration of the comic book Avengers, ever) falls flat on its face.
And I don't blame any of that on the younger generation either, since these decisions, both in the comics and in the movies spun off from them, are being made by 40 year old white men, such as Avi Arad, who, after the failures of Catwoman and Elektra, said, 'This proves that audiences don't want to see movies about strong women,' instead of what he *should* have said, which was, 'This proves that audience don't want to see movies that suck.'
Actually, I'm talking about the original Human Torch, from back when Marvel was Timely Comics.A robotic Human Torch? Heresy!Unfortunately, most folks aren't going to get that joke, K. Pretty sure they were referring to the Robbie character from the old cartoons.
I know. Hence my statement that most folks might not get that joke. You actually got me reminiscing over the Invaders & wondering if Marvel could get away with an Invaders movie until I remembered that Namor was in that team as well & technically Fox owned the rights to him & I went back to grumble into my beard...
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Actually, I'm talking about the original Human Torch, from back when Marvel was Timely Comics.I know. Hence my statement that most folks might not get that joke. You actually got me reminiscing over the Invaders & wondering if Marvel could get away with an Invaders movie until I remembered that Namor was in that team as well & technically Fox owned the rights to him & I went back to grumble into my beard...
I've love a period-set Invaders movie. (Or WW2 set Justice Society or Young Allies movie, from the Distinguished Competition, for that matter!)
Namor's little ankle-wings, on the other hand, I'm not so sure about. The dude is awesome, but there are bizarre and inconsistent places I draw lines, and that's one of them. :)
I just want a new Spawn movie; prominent black superhero whose race didn't correlate to who he was. He was a mercenary, betrayed by his best friend, and now serves as a knight of Hell, and he just happened to be black. That's it. No jungle/african/urban ghetto/dancing gimmick(wrestling reference)/champion of the cause backstory needed. I think I covered the stereotypes, let me know if I missed any.
The original Spawn movie had potential, but had no budget. Le Sigh.
I've said this before and I'm sticking with it. I feel that the comicbook fandom is horribly racist. And it's not the racism of sheet wearing, cross burning church burning and lynching. It's the racism of out of sight out of mind and everything has it's place...as long as their place is OVER THERE.I disagree. I think the fandom is resistant to ALL change and racism has little or nothing to do with it.
And the for the most part, these writers write these characters as ACTUAL living breathing people and not like some suburban white 13 year old male's impression of what a black male is supposed to sound like (See Brian Azzerello's Cage Mini series or 100 Bullets.)Again, I disagree. I think the problem is older, more set-in-their ways comic book fans. In fact I think part of the reason comic books are a dying medium is because they continue to cater to an older fan-base. Children are no longer the target audience.
In my experience, kids tend to be way more open-minded and accepting of each other. My (white) daughter's best friend in kindergarten was a black boy. To her, he just happened to have different color skin from her. It didn't, and still doesn't, matter to her in the slightest.
I partially agree with your first point. Fandom is resistant to most change. But their particular penchant for resistance whenever black faces are involved is particularly strong. Especially if those faces are black AND male. To discount that either means that you haven't been exposed to it or you don't want to see it. I understand BOTH sides of that and make no judgment.
As for your second thing I have to call BS on the whole younger generation being more open minded. Now I WILL agree that most children are open minded in Kindergarten through 3rd - 4th grade I think. Its when the pressure of peer groups and a need to fit in start is where you see kids start to split up in their racial / ethnic peer groups.
Also if what you said was so true then why was it when President Obama was re-elected a majority of tweets referring to him negatively because of his race were from collage / high school age students?
It's not going away fellas. As much as you want to wish it away we're STILL dealing with it. As much as people want to insinuate that I'm the racist by pointing racism out? That's simply not the way it works.
I just want a new Spawn movie; prominent black superhero whose race didn't correlate to who he was. He was a mercenary, betrayed by his best friend, and now serves as a knight of Hell, and he just happened to be black. That's it. No jungle/african/urban ghetto/dancing gimmick(wrestling reference)/champion of the cause backstory needed. I think I covered the stereotypes, let me know if I missed any.
The original Spawn movie had potential, but had no budget. Le Sigh.
LOL. It also helped that well the main character as Spawn was BURNED BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION so yeah doesn't matter if he's black because...you know...BURNED.
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Not sure if anyone else posted this, but here's a bit of insight as to the FF casting choices(and super hero movies in general).
Long story short, Fox is aiming at the largest demographic possible, and source material is taking a back seat. The FF comics aren't all that popular these days, so Fox is trying to minimize risk. So yeah, total pandering, and comic fans can go fly a kite.
I think I'll pass.
Thanks for the link. It was a good read and it reminded me of two things.
1) Even with perfect casting, a FF movie was a longshot. A quick perusal of the Top Ten Superheroes thread will tell you that the FF are not all that popular. I have to laugh at the thought that a studio exec paid actual money for the licensing. The only thing that ever got me even remotely interested in the FF was their association with the Silver Surfer, and they royally screwed that film opportunity.
2) The entire comic book industry is in need of a major overhaul. It's gotten way too complicated for its own good. There are way too many crossovers, niche titles, marketing gimmicks, alternate universes, soap opera style deaths and returns, etc. The industry is a hot mess. I stopped collecting a long time ago; and every time I consider getting back into it, all the nonsense reminds me of why I quit in the first place.
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I just want a new Spawn movie; prominent black superhero whose race didn't correlate to who he was. He was a mercenary, betrayed by his best friend, and now serves as a knight of Hell, and he just happened to be black. That's it. No jungle/african/urban ghetto/dancing gimmick(wrestling reference)/champion of the cause backstory needed. I think I covered the stereotypes, let me know if I missed any.
The original Spawn movie had potential, but had no budget. Le Sigh.
LOL. It also helped that well the main character as Spawn was BURNED BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION so yeah doesn't matter if he's black because...you know...BURNED.
I guess. But on that same token, wouldn't matter if he was white either, since he was burned beyond recognition.
That's actually my point; his race was never glorified or aggrandized; he wasn't stereotyped the way Luke Cage, Black Panther, etc were. He wasn't "Black Spawn," like how Black Lightning was named. He was just Al Simmons. Isn't this what we're going for?
As part of that older fanbase, who has many longboxes of comics from the 80s, 90s, etc. and yet cannot find a single comic to put on my pull-list (after decades of having over a dozen monthly must-haves), I can assure you, I'm not being catered to.
We've been pretty much abandoned, most decisively by DC, that attempted to streamline their continuity once with Crisis on Infinite Earths, only to get a little shaky on the dismount, and has decided instead to throw it out completely with the New 52.
If I were being catered to, there's be a lot more one-and-done storylines, in which all sorts of stuff happens *in a single issue,* and huge mega-events, like the Great Darkness Saga, or the Judas Contract, might take *four whole issues,* and not six issues of talky-talk *just to set up* (and then end with a bunch of super-peeps leaping at each other in a two page spread, in lieu of an actual *action scene*). There'd be about 600% less murderous killing sprees of teenaged heroes, and infinity percent less people being raped and set on fire.
And there's still be some black Avengers, like the Black Panther, like the Falcon, like Monica Rambeau (whatever the heck she's calling herself this week), like actually existed in the 'old days' in the comics, and have yet to appear in the shiny new cinematic Marvel universe.
Heck, the shiny new cinematic Avengers-verse couldn't even have a super-powered *woman* in it, so any notion that the stuff 'catering to' the younger demographic and not us old fogeys is somehow more inclusive (despite having less super-powered women *and* less black / Asian / etc. characters than almost any iteration of the comic book Avengers, ever) falls flat on its face.
And I don't blame any of that...
Fair enough. You're obviously more informed about the issues than I am, so I'll defer to you on that point.
Not sure if anyone else posted this, but here's a bit of insight as to the FF casting choices(and super hero movies in general).
Long story short, Fox is aiming at the largest demographic possible, and source material is taking a back seat. The FF comics aren't all that popular these days, so Fox is trying to minimize risk. So yeah, total pandering, and comic fans can go fly a kite.
I think I'll pass.
Thanks for the link. It was a good read and it reminded me of two things.
1) Even with perfect casting, a FF movie was a longshot. A quick perusal of the Top Ten Superheroes thread will tell you that the FF are not all that popular. I have to laugh at the thought that a studio exec paid actual money for the licensing. The only thing that ever got me even remotely interested in the FF was their association with the Silver Surfer, and they royally screwed that film opportunity.
2) The entire comic book industry is in need of a major overhaul. It's gotten way too complicated for its own good. There are way too many crossovers, niche titles, marketing gimmicks, alternate universes, soap opera style deaths and returns, etc. The industry is a hot mess. I stopped collecting a long time ago; and every time I consider getting back into it, all the nonsense reminds me of why I quit in the first place.
Agreed. a FF movie at all IS a longshot, and could be argued that it's even more appropriate to fall back to marvel. FF never terribly interested me, but they were always a huge staple IP of Marvel. It's still weird to me that the Marvel on-screen universe is as big as it is with no involvement from any FF characters(by which I mean appearances, crossovers, cameos, etc).
I collected comics pretty heavily in the 80's and up through until the mid-90's. But, I just bought the ones I happened to be reading, whereas my Dad was a hardcore, major collector. He had thousands of issues; more complete runs than I dared to count. So, I'd sit and read entire series, Avengers #1-whatever, Uncanny X-men #1-300ish, etc. By the time I got the the then-current issues of some series, they were all over the place. Crossovers across way too many titles, and I just lost interest. Nowadays, with the Ultimates as a sort of "soft reset," I'm just too overwhelmed to even try to keep up. I'll stick to my 1960's-70's era comics. I pick up the occasional trade paperback of whatever big story arc happened the previous year, but that's about it.
Mixed. Families.What planet are you from where mixed families are harder to believe than superpowers?
Harder to believe? No, but keep in mind that any reboot involving the FF will show us the events of how they get their super powers. So that call for the story to be revealed will be satisfied.
I strongly suspect a mixed family will also call out "there's a story here, what is it?" And not that many people will be satisfied unless it is addressed in some fashion.
I partially agree with your first point. Fandom is resistant to most change. But their particular penchant for resistance whenever black faces are involved is particularly strong. Especially if those faces are black AND male. To discount that either means that you haven't been exposed to it or you don't want to see it. I understand BOTH sides of that and make no judgment.
Most definitely the first, possibly a little of both, though I think the second has a lot to do with personal bias.
For example, in the case of T'Challa's relationship with Storm you saw outrage based on race. I see it as outrage over pandering. Forge (who is not white, but native american) had a history with Storm that started pretty early on. The fact that they ditched that to hook her up with Black Panther just seemed childish. "They're both black so they have to get together, see?" In my opinion, with admittedly little knowledge of the details, I think it did a disservice to both characters. I would have expected to T'Challa to marry a Wakandan woman out of a sense of duty and loyalty to his country. For all the comparisons to Batman, I always thought of Black Panther as more of a "Captain Wakanda" to our Captain America - same values, same courage, similar abilities, different country.
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And there's still be some black Avengers, like the Black Panther, like the Falcon, like Monica Rambeau (whatever the heck she's calling herself this week), like actually existed in the 'old days' in the comics, and have yet to appear in the shiny new cinematic Marvel universe.
If I remember correctly (I was an Alpha Flight then X-men fan in the 80's) Didn't Monica lead the Avengers at one point? I remember in the MSH basic set, she was one of the four heroes in the beginning adventure.
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For example, in the case of T'Challa's relationship with Storm you saw outrage based on race. I see it as outrage over pandering. Forge (who is not white, but native american) had a history with Storm that started pretty early on. The fact that they ditched that to hook her up with Black Panther just seemed childish. "They're both black so they have to get together, see?" In my opinion, with admittedly little knowledge of the details, I think it did a disservice to both characters. I would have expected to T'Challa to marry a Wakandan woman out of a sense of duty and loyalty to his country. For all the comparisons to Batman, I always thought of Black Panther as more of a "Captain Wakanda" to our Captain America - same values, same courage, similar abilities, different country.
This. Even if they'd paired her with Bishop* instead of T'Challa at least they teased the possibility of the relationship in the 90's, didn't shoe horn it in.
*
Gee, looks like I touched a nerve.
Sorry to hold a mirro up to you Shin. Sometimes you have to face yourself and see you've become what you loathe.
Making assumptions about a group of people... shame on you.
Experience is not assumptions Matthew.
Also? Trust me, you've touched nothing. Nerve or otherwise. Keep playing the impartial instigator though that seems to be working for you.
I just want a new Spawn movie; prominent black superhero whose race didn't correlate to who he was. He was a mercenary, betrayed by his best friend, and now serves as a knight of Hell, and he just happened to be black. That's it. No jungle/african/urban ghetto/dancing gimmick(wrestling reference)/champion of the cause backstory needed. I think I covered the stereotypes, let me know if I missed any.
The original Spawn movie had potential, but had no budget. Le Sigh.
LOL. It also helped that well the main character as Spawn was BURNED BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION so yeah doesn't matter if he's black because...you know...BURNED.
I guess. But on that same token, wouldn't matter if he was white either, since he was burned beyond recognition.
That's actually my point; his race was never glorified or aggrandized; he wasn't stereotyped the way Luke Cage, Black Panther, etc were. He wasn't "Black Spawn," like how Black Lightning was named. He was just Al Simmons. Isn't this what we're going for?
If that's what you think we're going for then you might have missed something there Josh.
I partially agree with your first point. Fandom is resistant to most change. But their particular penchant for resistance whenever black faces are involved is particularly strong. Especially if those faces are black AND male. To discount that either means that you haven't been exposed to it or you don't want to see it. I understand BOTH sides of that and make no judgment.Most definitely the first, possibly a little of both, though I think the second has a lot to do with personal bias.
For example, in the case of T'Challa's relationship with Storm you saw outrage based on race. I see it as outrage over pandering. Forge (who is not white, but native american) had a history with Storm that started pretty early on. The fact that they ditched that to hook her up with Black Panther just seemed childish. "They're both black so they have to get together, see?" In my opinion, with admittedly little knowledge of the details, I think it did a disservice to both characters. I would have expected to T'Challa to marry a Wakandan woman out of a sense of duty and loyalty to his country. For all the comparisons to Batman, I always thought of Black Panther as more of a "Captain Wakanda" to our Captain America - same values, same courage, similar abilities, different country.
So it's ONLY viable that Storm would have a relationship with Forge and no one else? Or Bishop? We want a sense of realism in our comics EXCEPT when it comes to actual relationships? Not to mention that comics and as an extension comic book characters get retconned ALL THE TIME.
This is partially what I have a real issue with in terms of the whole Storm and Black Panther thing. If Marvel had created a new character that was an alien and used the exact amount of time to set up their relationship that was used to flashback and setup the relationship with the Black Panther? You might have a little bit of grumbling but nothing, I mean NOTHING like the hate that was thrown at the Black Panther / Storm union.
Also? I TOTALLY agree with your summation of Black Panther by the way. Absolutely SPOT ON.
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Well, this movie looks to be so much fail already...
It's not a racism thing, it's just poor casting choices ALL around.
Ben Grimm is a 100 lb guy (soaking wet)?
Siblings that go against the genetic norms (supposedly it's because they are adopted siblings...which is only against the entirety of comic canon for the FF since the beginning).
And...for those comparing gender switches...Dr. Doom...supposedly is going to be female.
If they can't even get the casting right...I have a huge feeling this script will make the 90's unreleased version seem like Shakespeare in comparison...not to mention the previous FF films to seem like genius cinematography in relation.
As for adding the token minority...if they really wanted to include racial diversity on the team...they should have made Ben Grimm African American, or Reed Richards...OR...simply make BOTH Sue and Johnny African American. At least have something make more sense than saying...we have a black and white brother and sister from the same family.
That's not called racism to have your thoughts go????
Rather it's called...with so many other options available...why in the world do this casting this way?
Mixed. Families.
What planet are you from where mixed families are harder to believe than superpowers?
I'm from planet Earth where 99.99999% of genetic siblings are the same race (and Johnny and Susan Storm are genetic siblings...NOT adopted...just for your information...as they have been for the past nigh almost 50 years).
As I said, the options to have either BOTH African American would be more acceptable in my eyes, then something like this. Or, if it's simply wanting racial diversity, but only a token member...they coudl have always had Reed Richards or Ben Grimm, both who don't have a direct genetic relation on the team. Either one could easily have been African American. In fact at this point, it would be smarter to switch the actors who are playing Grimm and Johnny. That wouldn't be really be canon either...but would make a heck of a lot more sense then their current casting. But they won't of course.
This speaks of them having to hand wrestle the entire FF ideas into something other than FF. Basically Some director tasked to make an FF movie who doesn't WANT TO MAKE an FF movie...so decides to create their own movie.
Which normally turns out a bunch of stink.
Gee, looks like I touched a nerve.
Sorry to hold a mirro up to you Shin. Sometimes you have to face yourself and see you've become what you loathe.
Making assumptions about a group of people... shame on you.
MM, going to need some serious citations on your earlier posts. I know what Shin is talking about,even if I don't agree with it 100% and think he should put some points into diplomacy/Charisma come level-up time. What you are talking about sounds a lot like one white guy from middle America wondering when everyone else in the world is going to realize that they're wrong.
I'd be more inclined to be more sympathetic with the protesters if I didn't see the thing that I quoted put into play every time a black character was put into a place of prominence or the spotlight in mainstream superhero comics (Miles Morales as the New Ultimate Spider-Man, John Stewart used in the JL animated series instead of Hal Jordan for starters. Or even the outrage of T'challa marrying Storm...).
You might want to check the outrage...
There was a lot of outrage that 'this white guy' was playing Green Lantern specifically because John Stewart was teh GL that more people knew, thanks to the DCAU. The T'Challa/Storm marriage was protested, not because of the colour of his skin. (really reaching there) It was because it was a relationship that came out of nowhere. A lot of people found it offensive because it appeared Quesadia wanted 'the two black icons to marry each other.' even though there was no history. "I've said this before and I'm sticking with it. I feel that the comicbook fandom is horribly racist."
I am amused that the one making the accusations of 'racism' is the one on the thread guilty of generalizing a group of people and assuming the group is someone wrong.
EDIT: I'll check my outrage when you acknowledge that the initial uproar of John Stewart being the Green Lantern in the animated series was actually a thing that was a big deal and well...HAPPENED. You know instead of glossing it over. This is part of what I'm talking about.
PLEASE. An outrage over HAL JORDAN being the Green Lantern? I really must have missed that one. Not saying it didnt happen. But had to have been the exception rather than the rule of the reaction of comic book fans had John Stewart been cast...
The protest over T'challa and Storm being married had everything to do with the white male readers "ownership" of Storm as a character and not wanting her to be married off to another Black Male character. You may...
MM, as I said above, I'm going to need some serious evidence on that first one. I recall the outrage that John Stewart was going to be the Green Lantern in Justice League Animated Series, and a lot of cheers when John Stewart was not going to appear at all in Green Lantern Animated Series. I did not hear anything going in the opposite direction.
Re: Storm, I don't agree with you on this at all, Shin. A lot of people wanted to see her with Forge because..well..she and Forge have a lot more serious history than, say Bishop or T'Challa(despite her meeting the latter as a kid). The idea of white male reader "ownership" of Storm strikes me as hilarious. Storm and Wolverine? Only in What Ifs, man.
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I just want a new Spawn movie; prominent black superhero whose race didn't correlate to who he was. He was a mercenary, betrayed by his best friend, and now serves as a knight of Hell, and he just happened to be black. That's it. No jungle/african/urban ghetto/dancing gimmick(wrestling reference)/champion of the cause backstory needed. I think I covered the stereotypes, let me know if I missed any.
The original Spawn movie had potential, but had no budget. Le Sigh.
LOL. It also helped that well the main character as Spawn was BURNED BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION so yeah doesn't matter if he's black because...you know...BURNED.
IIRC,he tried to regain his appearance once to visit his wife. He turned into J. Random White Guy every time. So...yeah, race didn't matter here. Satan would have made sure he looked like someone else other than himself every time.
I have to say, I don't see my reaction as racist at all...more like thinking their casting moves (which also include a ridiculous choice for Grimm, and possibly Dr Doom as a woman, though the latter portion is not all that disturbing if it was by itself...just with all the other handjams they are doing seems to make it over the top) are absolutely unnecessary and ridiculous.
Instead of trying to handjam some unnecessary stuff in, simply cast Grimm or Reed as African American...or instead of trying to create some cockamamie story about siblings and adoption against any and all comic lore...make them the same race. It's not a racism thing on my part...simply looking at it and sayng...WTH...these people making the decisions seem very inept at what they are doing. With so MANY OTHER POSSIBILITIES...why choose the one that's going to peeve off fans, make others go WTH, and basically create a negative publicity storm?
I have to say, I don't see my reaction as racist at all...
Noone does, whether bigoted or not. Which is the real problem.
I partially agree with your first point. Fandom is resistant to most change. But their particular penchant for resistance whenever black faces are involved is particularly strong. Especially if those faces are black AND male. To discount that either means that you haven't been exposed to it or you don't want to see it. I understand BOTH sides of that and make no judgment.Most definitely the first, possibly a little of both, though I think the second has a lot to do with personal bias.
For example, in the case of T'Challa's relationship with Storm you saw outrage based on race. I see it as outrage over pandering. Forge (who is not white, but native american) had a history with Storm that started pretty early on. The fact that they ditched that to hook her up with Black Panther just seemed childish. "They're both black so they have to get together, see?" In my opinion, with admittedly little knowledge of the details, I think it did a disservice to both characters. I would have expected to T'Challa to marry a Wakandan woman out of a sense of duty and loyalty to his country. For all the comparisons to Batman, I always thought of Black Panther as more of a "Captain Wakanda" to our Captain America - same values, same courage, similar abilities, different country.
Yup.
If that's what you think we're going for then you might have missed something there Josh.I just want a new Spawn movie; prominent black superhero whose race didn't correlate to who he was. He was a mercenary, betrayed by his best friend, and now serves as a knight of Hell, and he just happened to be black. That's it. No jungle/african/urban ghetto/dancing gimmick(wrestling reference)/champion of the cause backstory needed. I think I covered the stereotypes, let me know if I missed any.
The original Spawn movie had potential, but had no budget. Le Sigh.
LOL. It also helped that well the main character as Spawn was BURNED BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION so yeah doesn't matter if he's black because...you know...BURNED.
I guess. But on that same token, wouldn't matter if he was white either, since he was burned beyond recognition.
That's actually my point; his race was never glorified or aggrandized; he wasn't stereotyped the way Luke Cage, Black Panther, etc were. He wasn't "Black Spawn," like how Black Lightning was named. He was just Al Simmons. Isn't this what we're going for?
So enlighten me? I brought up a prominent black super hero who wasn't a walking caricature of his race. If his skin being burned makes his being black not matter, then it wouldn't matter if he was white either, which would mean his race wouldn't matter, right? Isn't that the whole point of casting a black Johnny Storm; his race shouldn't matter, so tossing a black actor in a white role is A-OK, right?
Or, are you saying that a character should be defined by their race? You replied to my post first, so feel free to explain yourself.
If that's what you think we're going for then you might have missed something there Josh.I just want a new Spawn movie; prominent black superhero whose race didn't correlate to who he was. He was a mercenary, betrayed by his best friend, and now serves as a knight of Hell, and he just happened to be black. That's it. No jungle/african/urban ghetto/dancing gimmick(wrestling reference)/champion of the cause backstory needed. I think I covered the stereotypes, let me know if I missed any.
The original Spawn movie had potential, but had no budget. Le Sigh.
LOL. It also helped that well the main character as Spawn was BURNED BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION so yeah doesn't matter if he's black because...you know...BURNED.
I guess. But on that same token, wouldn't matter if he was white either, since he was burned beyond recognition.
That's actually my point; his race was never glorified or aggrandized; he wasn't stereotyped the way Luke Cage, Black Panther, etc were. He wasn't "Black Spawn," like how Black Lightning was named. He was just Al Simmons. Isn't this what we're going for?
So enlighten me? I brought up a prominent black super hero who wasn't a walking caricature of his race. If his skin being burned makes his being black not matter, then it wouldn't matter if he was white either, which would mean his race wouldn't matter, right? Isn't that the whole point of casting a black Johnny Storm; his race shouldn't matter, so tossing a black actor in a white role is A-OK, right?
Or, are you saying that a character should be defined by their race? You replied to my post first, so feel free to explain yourself.
I think that you might be confusing me with some of the other people upthread. I've already said numerous times that I'm kinda torn about the casting. While I like the actor who has been cast and do want to see more people who look like me in super hero movies I also grew up reading Byrne's run on the FF and Johnny Storm is pretty much a blonde hair blue eyed white guy.
You seem like you're looking to ignore race completely which doesn't really help anyone. To me Spawn is not a black hero. He's a generic soldier assassin who was betrayed and burned beyond all recognition. He's so generic that I wonder why he was made as a black character at all.
I identify as black man. My experiences because of my race and living in America have molded and shaped who I am. Because I'm raising a little boy I have to prepare him to survive in a country where people simply view him as a potential threat no matter how good of a person he is.
To the rest of you who don't have to deal with that its a joke and a possibly an overreaction. But for me? it's a reality. So a persons experience and race should be represented in the character and not blindly ignored. Granted it doesn't have to be a huge 90's image comics shoulder pad sized chip on their shoulder but it should be there.
Up thread I've already cited several white writers who are more than capable of writing black male characters with a sense of nuance and not caricature.
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Spawn generic? I'm sorry you feel that way, I think he's a great black anti-hero. It makes me wonder if you would accept a black character who wasn't part of a race-based dialogue.
After all this serious talk, that’s really the punchline: much of this deep, social/economical/racial/philosophical debate will ultimately be decided by what these respective movies look like when the trailers and/or other promotional materials are released. If they look badass, the world (including many of the sworn boycotters) will line up to buy tickets to the No. 1 source of blockbuster movie entertainment; however, if the trailers and promo materials look like garbage – faithful to the source material or not – then even the most ardent supporters will turn on the film like Caesar at the Senate. And if/when the box office returns are low, it’ll be back to the drawing board for the studio.
This is the real truth.
That AND the fallacy that anything is "Canon" is the comics industry. They change canon with each new creative team it seems.
I have to say, I don't see my reaction as racist at all...Noone does, whether bigoted or not. Which is the real problem.
The thing is, my reaction is NOT racist. That's the problem. I have NO problem with Johnny Storm being African American as LONG AS IT ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.
To me, the way they are doing this, is FAR MORE RACIST, than anything in regards to saying...why not have some common sense in this...family members being genetically the same race...and not create some absurd anomaly and plot restrictions simply for NO reason. They have multiple ways to have their diversity if that's what they are after...what they are doing with this move (and multiple moves on casting) is simply irritating anyone with common sense.
My experiences because of my race and living in America have molded and shaped who I am. Because I'm raising a little boy I have to prepare him to survive in a country where people simply view him as a potential threat no matter how good of a person he is.
In what God-forsaken hell did you grow up? I'm not denying your experiences in any way. I'm genuinely curious.
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My experiences because of my race and living in America have molded and shaped who I am. Because I'm raising a little boy I have to prepare him to survive in a country where people simply view him as a potential threat no matter how good of a person he is.In what God-forsaken hell did you grow up? I'm not denying your experiences in any way. I'm genuinely curious.
The same country as Trayvon Martin.
The same country as Trayvon Martin.My experiences because of my race and living in America have molded and shaped who I am. Because I'm raising a little boy I have to prepare him to survive in a country where people simply view him as a potential threat no matter how good of a person he is.In what God-forsaken hell did you grow up? I'm not denying your experiences in any way. I'm genuinely curious.
And Jordan Davis and multitudes of young black males who were perceived as threats and killed either by law enforcement or civilian vigilantes.
Spawn generic? I'm sorry you feel that way, I think he's a great black anti-hero. It makes me wonder if you would accept a black character who wasn't part of a race-based dialogue.
To be fair I only read up to the first 10-12 issues of the original run. McFarlane's writing wasnt doing the book any favors at all. And after the guest runs by Moore and Gaiman highlighted the rift in ability between them and McFarlane I dropped the book.
Also, does me liking pre New52 Mr. Terrific count? Because he was pretty vanilla as vanilla goes.
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The same country as Trayvon Martin.
Jesus f+%#ing christ don't try and turn this into any more of a flame war than Shin already has attempted (and partially succeeded) to do.
The same country as Trayvon Martin.My experiences because of my race and living in America have molded and shaped who I am. Because I'm raising a little boy I have to prepare him to survive in a country where people simply view him as a potential threat no matter how good of a person he is.In what God-forsaken hell did you grow up? I'm not denying your experiences in any way. I'm genuinely curious.And Jordan Davis and multitudes of young black males who were perceived as threats and killed either by law enforcement or civilian vigilantes.
I have to wonder why you think it's a good idea to teach your son that "the white man is out to get him", thereby putting him on the defensive, thereby making him subconsciously more hostile to non-blacks, thereby making him APPEAR MORE THREATENING.
You're just contributing at this point. It's racism whether you're black OR white you know.
My experiences because of my race and living in America have molded and shaped who I am. Because I'm raising a little boy I have to prepare him to survive in a country where people simply view him as a potential threat no matter how good of a person he is.In what God-forsaken hell did you grow up? I'm not denying your experiences in any way. I'm genuinely curious.
I grew up in NYC in the 80's and 90's. Particularly during Elenor Bumpers and Michael Stewart, Yusef Hawkins, Sean Bell, Abner Luima and Amadu Diallo.
There's also Giuliani's NYC which to white people here was a godsend but if you were young black and male (and not a criminal) in the city at time it was pretty awful. Harassment at the hands of NYPD was pretty constant. All you pretty much needed to do was fit a vague description of a suspect and you'd get stopped. And it didnt matter if theyd stopped you just the other day while you were going to get groceries theyd just stop you again, throw you stuff on the floor and then knowing it wasnt you that they were looking for would just say "youre free to go" and "have a nice day". And if you questioned in ANY WAY you ran the risk of getting a beat down right there in the street.
Also Dont ever let anyone tell you that New Yorkers are less racist than any other part of the country. They aren't. They just mask it under a false veneer of civility and/or ambivalence. It's why when I see shows like Seinfeld and Friends and people complain "Dont these people have any black friends? I mean it's NY? Right?" I say "nope. That's about right. Still pretty segregated here."
Admittedly it's a little less so now but still.
I mean I love my city. But I know my city.