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The good reason would be thinking that the actor was the best performer available for the role combined with no pressing reason that the character might have to be a certain race.A) You can't possibly tell me that it isn't possible to find a white actor to play the role just as well, and
B) There is a pressing reason the character might have to be a certain race. The character is based on an existing comic book character who is and always has been a certain race.
There are plenty of scenarios or characters for which I think a race swap would be a great idea. This isn't one of them.
"It's always been this way." Is the worst defence for anything.
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This entire casting will rise or fall depending on one word: why.
My biggest issue, so far, is that is possibility that Johnny Storm is played by a black actor simply for the sake of having a black actor in the film. Diversity because, well, diversity.
Does anyone else remember this: Cinderella (1997 film)? I enjoyed the movie, all of the actors playing their parts were good, fit well, and interacted well. But that's not what stood out. Fairytale utopia or not, the first thing that jumped out was - race/ethnicity. That is what I fear for this casting. That Johnny's casting will overshadow the rest of the film.
Black Nick Fury? After an initial confusion (who's that?) and checking the history of the character, I enjoyed the casting and it fits quite nicely.
Black Heimdal is still a what?!?!? at least partially because I know (on a list I'm on) a pagan who worships the Nordic pantheon. I never asked him how he felt about the casting because it wasn't relevant to the list topics, still it seemed to be a slap in the face to such followers to me. As an example; while I wouldn't object to a black Jesus, some folks would. (I'd actually prefer a semitic actor portraying Jesus). You'd get the same reaction to a black actor portraying Mohammad.
I see the discussion going:
Reed Richards - can't do a black guy married to a blonde white woman; too much baggage.Ben Grimm - couldn't tell unless we went with bad stereotypical speech/actions; we'd get slammed.
Dr. Doom - same as with Ben Grimm.
Sue Storm - black woman/white guy; worse than the reverse.
Johnny Storm - perfect! I know just the actor. We'll explain it later.
I have no objection to mixed families (I love that Cheerios series). I just (currently) am concerned about this change due to it feeling forced. That may change when I see the movie. It will all depend on why. Give me a good reason for Johnny to be black, don't overshadow the rest of the plot with it, and...
Mixed families need no justification. In real life or in fiction.
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Black people don't need to justify their existence in movies, in life or in their families.
Johnny Storm needs to be a cocky hot-head, with terrible luck in ladies and the ability to flame on.
If you think that there shouldn't be a black guy in a family of science fiction explorers and heros you are being racist. Not the moustache twirling bigotry of ages past. The subtle racism of believing that black people should only appear in black narratives.
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I wonder what would've happened if a white actor had done the best audition/screen test for the role of Nelson Mandela in the latest biopic.Big difference. Nelson Mandela was a real person. Johnny Storm is not.
Well, unless he's played by Daniel Day-Lewis. ;-)
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There's a difference between thinking there shouldn't be a black guy in a family of science fiction explorers and heroes and thinking that an existing white family of such shouldn't be changed.Black people don't need to justify their existence in movies, in life or in their families.
Johnny Storm needs to be a cocky hot-head, with terrible luck in ladies and the ability to flame on.
If you think that there shouldn't be a black guy in a family of science fiction explorers and heros you are being racist. Not the moustache twirling bigotry of ages past. The subtle racism of believing that black people should only appear in black narratives.
The Storm family don't exist. They aren't real. Their history is as easily reimagined as any other character.
You are trying to justify racism. Stop it. You'll feel better.
Are you saying there's no difference between "Black people can't be in a family of science fiction explorers and heros" in the generic sense and "I prefer the way this particular family of science fiction explorers and heroes has been portrayed for the last 50 years"?There's a difference between thinking there shouldn't be a black guy in a family of science fiction explorers and heroes and thinking that an existing white family of such shouldn't be changed.Black people don't need to justify their existence in movies, in life or in their families.
Johnny Storm needs to be a cocky hot-head, with terrible luck in ladies and the ability to flame on.
If you think that there shouldn't be a black guy in a family of science fiction explorers and heros you are being racist. Not the moustache twirling bigotry of ages past. The subtle racism of believing that black people should only appear in black narratives.
The Storm family don't exist. They aren't real. Their history is as easily reimagined as any other character.
You are trying to justify racism. Stop it. You'll feel better.
It's an ugly dividing line.
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But this isn't the comic books. It's a movie. It's different. And it's ok to be different.When said movie is based on the comic book, it is not okay - not to me, at least.
Except the comics books themselves seldom care about continuity...think about how many retcons, revamping, and resurrections are done by DC or Marvel? Obviously it's not a huge issue for them in their own products, yet the minor change in race is for a movie?
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Black Heimdal is still a what?!?!? at least partially because I know (on a list I'm on) a pagan who worships the Nordic pantheon. I never asked him how he felt about the casting because it wasn't relevant to the list topics, still it seemed to be a slap in the face to such followers to me. As an example; while I wouldn't object to a black Jesus, some folks would. (I'd actually prefer a semitic actor portraying Jesus). You'd get the same reaction to a black actor portraying Mohammad.
Ya know, if I was a pagan that venerated Norse gods, I have to feel that the race of Heimdal would be way way less offensive to me than the fact they took dieties from my personal beliefs, simplified their story, and made them into super heroes.
If Black Heimdall is the only thing that offends your religious beliefs out of the Marvel movies, you probably have some underlying issues.
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Dork Tower's take:
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Well, unless he's played by Daniel Day-Lewis. ;-)I wonder what would've happened if a white actor had done the best audition/screen test for the role of Nelson Mandela in the latest biopic.Big difference. Nelson Mandela was a real person. Johnny Storm is not.
"I play Joe Biden" Summarizes the silliness of having a black guy play Johnny Storm pretty much perfectly! :)
But in all seriousness, with the price of movies at the theater in the last few years, unless it's the official Marvel Studios line I'm not wasting cash on off-shoots. Especially with the bad track record of FF movies so far. Both of them have been a disappointment for me. I have no reason to believe the new one, black actor or not, will really make these comic book heroes I know and love come alive for me.
The new Amazing Spider-Man is ok but I'm still not convinced I'll go to the second one just on the basis it's not the official marvel universe, and frankly, I don't really dig the new reboot. I don't know. I'm one of the weird ones who preferred Tobey McGuire I guess...
However I'll see Days of Future Past for sure, because Dinklage, Stewart and McKellen are all in it.
As I said before, I'm sympathetic to wanting a character from a visual medium to maintain a certain look, but can't consider that a primary concern in casting a movie.
...Why?
Even if it's not a primary concern, it should be A concern.
It speaks poorly of a studio who picks someone who looks nothing like the character just because they like them or they're the first person with a good audition. It looks lazy.
They don't need to be identical, but SOME resemblance would be nice, and is quite doable. There's a lot of actors out there. I'm quite sure this guy was not the ONLY PERSON who had the acting chops to play this role.
He's also the least suited appearance-wise (as far as I know, there could have been some talented auditions from 7 ft. tall white dudes or 300 lb. Mexicans but we didn't hear about them).
It speaks poorly of Studios to cast an actor they like for a role in a role? Also it's lazy to give the part to the person who has the best audition? Okay then.
I think it's funny that Jordan is the "least suited" when they cast a short British guy as Ben Grimm.
That's terrible casting too but all those mentions got out of the way early because NOBODY disagrees with that.
Based on appearance. Regardless of his acting chops.
Funny that.
It's almost like arbitrarily changing a character aspect because you like the guy and he had a good audition (when other people, better suited for the role, quite probably did too) is a bad idea.
Which is a lot like what I was saying.
Interesting.
So if we can all agree ShortBrit (I can't be bothered to learn his name right now) is bad casting because while he may have had a good audition, he doesn't fit the role appearance-wise, why can't we agree on that for Jordan?
Serious question...is it because he's black?
Dudemeister talks about "subtle bigotry" but personally that's the epitome of it to me. That minorities need special treatment, they need "more exposure" even when it doesn't make sense.
Essentially, they need a white man's help to get into the public eye, because they're not capable of doing it on their own merits, in roles where character race doesn't matter (and is not a change from the original just for change's sake).
Everyone seems to be on the "Chivalry is sexist" (i.e. giving women special treatment is sexist because it treats them as if they NEED help and such) train lately, but nobody is on the "Token <Minority> Guy is racist" train?
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I'm saying that comic book characters created in the 60's may not have been the most racially inclusive stories ever told and updating them for modern audiences means we no longer have to segregate African American characters to racial narratives. That biracial families happen and don't need explanation and that culture is perhaps a larger factor in casting choice than skin colour.
That Ben Grimm has a voice that rumbles.
While Johnny Storm just needs to be handsome.
Rynjin do you honestly believe that a person who had the best audition for a role should be disqualified just because of their appearance. Even though this is a complete reboot, so their is NO established appearance to go by. They are rewriting the story fresh. I don't agree about the short Brit. I wasn't at his audition. He may have been amazing and you will never give him a chance.
It isn't special treatment to be considered fairly for a role. If the best man is black then who cares give him the job. Anything less and you are proving dudemeister correct.
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Rynjin do you honestly believe that a person who had the best audition for a role should be disqualified just because of their appearance.
Depends on the project, the role, and the actor, as well as the other actors who auditioned. Luke Cage should be black. But if Steve Urkle was the only black actor who auditioned for the part, it might be the lesser of two evils to cast someone of a different race. (Or skip the film entirely.)
A robotic Human Torch? Heresy!
Unfortunately, most folks aren't going to get that joke, K. Pretty sure they were referring to the Robbie character from the old cartoons.
Except the comics books themselves seldom care about continuity...think about how many retcons, revamping, and resurrections are done by DC or Marvel? Obviously it's not a huge issue for them in their own products, yet the minor change in race is for a movie?
There's a reason I don't collect comic books anymore. Probably a few of them, actually...
That's terrible casting too but all those mentions got out of the way early because NOBODY disagrees with that.
Based on appearance. Regardless of his acting chops.
Funny that.
It's almost like arbitrarily changing a character aspect because you like the guy and he had a good audition (when other people, better suited for the role, quite probably did too) is a bad idea.
Which is a lot like what I was saying.
Interesting.
So if we can all agree ShortBrit (I can't be bothered to learn his name right now) is bad casting because while he may have had a good audition, he doesn't fit the role appearance-wise, why can't we agree on that for Jordan?
Serious question...is it because he's black?
See, I don't know that short Brit is going to be a bad Ben Grimm, maybe he really sold "tough Jewish guy from the streets on New York with a big heart" and the casting agents thought that was the most important aspect of the character. I don't know him as a performer, so I can't comment on his talent. I'm open to him being able to surprise me and selling the part even though he doesn't look like I expect the character to look. But I haven't heard nearly as much discontent over his casting as there is for Jordan as Torch.
I question it because I consider Ben being a big handsome, all-american Jock/army test pilot type to be an important part of the character as a way of informing just how much he lost by becoming The Thing, but don't assume that the actor can't make the role work. I just don't know his work, so all I can really do is remark on it and wait to see what happens.
Some seem to be unwilling to consider that Jordan might be a good choice for the role because he's a different race. That he was only cast to be the "token" black guy, and not because the director knows him well from their previous work together as a performer and believes him to simply be the best choice for the role. I've seen Jordan in quite a few things over the last few years, so I myself have little doubt that he can deliver a quality performance that will capture Johnny Storm's (one of my favorite comic characters, by the way) personality.
My issue in the case of Jordan is not people who would simply prefer an actor who looks like the character is drawn, but the assumptions that his being black will force a massive change to the backstory that will take over the entire film, or that it's somehow nearly impossible for siblings to have different color skin. And the assumptions that the only reason for him being black is "change for the sake of change" or tokenism. That his being black somehow makes it impossible for him to do a good job playing Johnny Storm in a way that is true to the character.
Rynjin do you honestly believe that a person who had the best audition for a role should be disqualified just because of their appearance.
I certainly do. I'd be equally irritated if they cast Kathy Bates as Lara Croft. What does that make me? I also wouldn't like it if they cast Lindsey Lohan as Mother Teresa. AHHH! Age Discrimination!
Even though this is a complete reboot, so their is NO established appearance to go by. They are rewriting the story fresh.
Fair enough. I guess I'm not interested regardless, then. :)
Don't discout the small british dude yet.
Hugh Laurie has shown that pre-screening opinions are moot when he went from yhe kind hearted father of Stuart Little to the obnoxious american doctor House.
And Tom Cruise demonstrates that you don't have to fit the bill physically when we he successfully played a character 2 feet taller then himself in Jack Reacher.
I also wouldn't like it if they cast Lindsey Lohan as Mother Teresa. AHHH! Age discrimination
With a decent makup department that would work.
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And Tom Cruise demonstrates that you don't have to fit the bill physically when we he successfully played a character 2 feet taller then himself in Jack Reacher.Tom Cruise successfully played a character?
Oh my. Time to stock the bunker with canned goods, the end is nigh.
Tom Cruise is a great actor in any movie where he's not trying to prove how fast he can still run.
Don't discout the small british dude yet.
Hugh Laurie has shown that pre-screening opinions are moot when he went from yhe kind hearted father of Stuart Little to the obnoxious american doctor House.And Tom Cruise demonstrates that you don't have to fit the bill physically when we he successfully played a character 2 feet taller then himself in Jack Reacher.
It's not the height, it's the build.
Vin Diesel is a short, SHORT man but he's got a build that can make him the "Big imposing guy" with camera work to make him look taller.
ShortBrit is both short AND scrawny.
Maybe we were spoiled by Chiklis in the original movies but it's like that man was BORN to play Thing.
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It's not the height, it's the build.
Vin Diesel is a short, SHORT man but he's got a build that can make him the "Big imposing guy" with camera work to make him look taller.
ShortBrit is both short AND scrawny.
Depends on how they go. If the suit is bulky enough, the size of the actor inside of it won't matter much. And if they go CGI, then it matters even less.
Considering that the tallest actor in the main cast of Lord of the Rings was playing Gimli, the Dwarf, I imagine that even a short dude as Ben Grimm could be work-able.
I haven't heard his voice, but some British actors do a fine job of making their accent disappear, like Damien Lewis (Life, Homeland) and the dude who played Apollo in the last Battlestar remake.
Maybe we were spoiled by Chiklis in the original movies but it's like that man was BORN to play Thing.
That's my only issue with the new cast, is that both Jordan and 'shortbrit' are going up against actors who pretty much nailed their characters in the previous FF movies. They've got an uphill battle ahead of them, regardless of race/accent/height/etc.
Gosh, and I remember the wild controversy over Chris Evans as the Torch, because he wasn't blonde enough... Heh. Good times.
Casting aside, the last FF movie kind of blew, and I've heard nothing about this movie *other* than the casting, which does nothing to inspire me to get my moneys out of their wallet.
TLDR; Don't change characters to have a token minority.
A minority got a role instead of a white person, it must be "tokenism"!
What if Captain America was black?
That one actually gets a bit tricky because a significant aspect of his background would be trying to get into the racially segregated US Army. Other WWII vet characters can get a pass on that as we get farther and farther from the war, their involvement in it becomes less important, unlike Cap. Nick Fury (army), Reed Richards (OSS), Ben Grimm (Marines) were credible as WWII vets in the 1960s, but aren't now. But it's still an important element of Cap.
TLDR; Don't change characters to have a token minority.A minority got a role instead of a white person, it must be "tokenism"!
In this case, it could be seen as such, yes. Not saying that's what happened here, but it's not a groundless accusation.
That one actually gets a bit tricky because a significant aspect of his background would be trying to get into the racially segregated US Army. Other WWII vet characters can get a pass on that as we get farther and farther from the war, their involvement in it becomes less important, unlike Cap. Nick Fury (army), Reed Richards (OSS), Ben Grimm (Marines) were credible as WWII vets in the 1960s, but aren't now. But it's still an important element of Cap.
What if Captain America was black?
They already did that with Patriot.
Let me pose it this way, what if the actor agreed to do the movie with CGI done so that he appears white? Then a black actor plays a white part so everybody wins, right?
Um, that's even more of a why?!?!? than the casting of Jordan in the first place.
Can he play the role? Of course; he's a good actor. Can they come up with a good story around a multiracial Storm family? Depends on who's telling it.
It just seems a pointless change. I'm more confused than annoyed, actually.
I also suspect (being rather cynical of Hollywood motives) that releasing the cast as they did was to spark just this sort of interest.
Can Hollywood tell a good story about a mixed-race family who gain superpowers? Again, that will depend on who's telling it. Even the most ardent supported of strong black heroes has to admit that Hollywood's track record on such family tales is spotty at best.
This casting will affect the Storm family backstory. How, and how it plays out against a superheroic background, is something we'll all just have to wait and see.
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That the movie will even bother to go in to the family back story at all is an assumption at this stage.
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With a decent makup department that would work.
I also wouldn't like it if they cast Lindsey Lohan as Mother Teresa. AHHH! Age discrimination
I'm not sure that asking a black actor to wear make-up to make him appear white is the way forward.
As a kid in 70s Britain I was uncomfortable watching The Black And White Mistrel Show, and asked my dad why they were wearing black make up.
Not long after, the TV execs realised that it was inappropriate and ended the show.
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Gosh, and I remember the wild controversy over Chris Evans as the Torch, because he wasn't blonde enough... Heh. Good times.
This is what we mean! Accusing others of racism is poor form without something a lot more solid than 'We want Johnny to look like Johnny'. It dilutes our actual response to real racism.
I adore Jessica Alba. Her acting range (I say advisedly) is not a major part of her appeal, but she at least looked the part.
Yet she has dark hair. To play Sue she either had to bleach her hair or wear a blonde wig. Why? Because both Sue and Johnny are blonde, and their appearance has been established for over 50 years!
It would be as wrong for Sue to be portrayed as having dark hair as it would for Ben to be played by Peter Dinklage.
Superman has been portrayed as having black hair for over 70 years. It's not a crucial part of his power set(!), but it is part of his established look. It would be wrong to portray him with blond hair.
When Wonder Woman was portrayed with blonde hair, that was wrong, especially when it would've been so easy to fix.
Comics are an extremely visual medium. The image of each character is so crucial that even the writers are much more likely to change a costume than a hairstyle. Real women in our culture tend to change their hair style and colour frequently, but for a writer to have a comic character change their hair would only be done to indicate a more profound inward change.
The Fantastic Four should look like The Fantastic Four, and that is not a racist statement.
sigh... let's cast Jack Nicholson present day as the prostitute in the reboot of "Pretty Woman" sigh major sigh... sigh again... oh, and Richard Gere will now be played by Richard Gere
Good to know different races are the same thing as different genders.
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A robotic Human Torch? Heresy!Unfortunately, most folks aren't going to get that joke, K. Pretty sure they were referring to the Robbie character from the old cartoons.
Actually, I'm talking about the original Human Torch, from back when Marvel was Timely Comics.
Well, this movie looks to be so much fail already...
It's not a racism thing, it's just poor casting choices ALL around.
Ben Grimm is a 100 lb guy (soaking wet)?
Siblings that go against the genetic norms (supposedly it's because they are adopted siblings...which is only against the entirety of comic canon for the FF since the beginning).
And...for those comparing gender switches...Dr. Doom...supposedly is going to be female.
If they can't even get the casting right...I have a huge feeling this script will make the 90's unreleased version seem like Shakespeare in comparison...not to mention the previous FF films to seem like genius cinematography in relation.
As for adding the token minority...if they really wanted to include racial diversity on the team...they should have made Ben Grimm African American, or Reed Richards...OR...simply make BOTH Sue and Johnny African American. At least have something make more sense than saying...we have a black and white brother and sister from the same family.
That's not called racism to have your thoughts go????
Rather it's called...with so many other options available...why in the world do this casting this way?
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Well, this movie looks to be so much fail already...
It's not a racism thing, it's just poor casting choices ALL around.
Ben Grimm is a 100 lb guy (soaking wet)?
Siblings that go against the genetic norms (supposedly it's because they are adopted siblings...which is only against the entirety of comic canon for the FF since the beginning).
And...for those comparing gender switches...Dr. Doom...supposedly is going to be female.
If they can't even get the casting right...I have a huge feeling this script will make the 90's unreleased version seem like Shakespeare in comparison...not to mention the previous FF films to seem like genius cinematography in relation.
As for adding the token minority...if they really wanted to include racial diversity on the team...they should have made Ben Grimm African American, or Reed Richards...OR...simply make BOTH Sue and Johnny African American. At least have something make more sense than saying...we have a black and white brother and sister from the same family.
That's not called racism to have your thoughts go????
Rather it's called...with so many other options available...why in the world do this casting this way?
Mixed. Families.
What planet are you from where mixed families are harder to believe than superpowers?