Goblin Squad Member
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Sometimes with all the focus of these debates about PVP, Reputation, settlements, and what mechanics will be implemented in this sandbox...we forget about the theme park part of it...and the adventuring. I remember hearing about how goblin camps can spring up and such, but I was thinking of how cool it would be that during one of these settlement on settlement wars, the guild leaders had to call a ceasefire because a random red dragon is attacking villagers and needed to be put down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is a relevant discussion. I am not sure we ever gave Ryan an answer he would find satisfactory enough to focus vital resources into it.
But many of us tried...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is a relevant discussion. I am not sure we ever gave Ryan an answer he would find satisfactory enough to focus vital resources into it.
But many of us tried...
Thank you
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Goblin Squad Member
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To bad that discussion is well over a year old, there were some interesting points to discuss.
Why make monsters rare, or why not?
How do you make player interaction with spawns into meaningful player interactions?
How to make a rare spawn not something that instantly generates a specialized hit team of players to harvest the spawn?
Etc.
The way I see it the best way to start attacking these questions is by giving players a reason to keep the rare spawn alive. If some want it alive and others want it dead, you have meaningful player interaction going on right there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the quick skim of that thread, it may not be too late to get some big bad monsters as wandering monsters in to the game. If they can link them to the gathering node system that was developed for harvesting (Dust off the Moon, blog Oct 2013) or develop a separate monster node system that works the same as the gathering node .
Basically a harvester finds some ore, then after harvesting has a chance to find a gathering node and that player has exclusive rights to it ( If they are lucky enough to find one)
The system already is set up to send waves of monsters at the node as people try to harvest the node and the description already says other items could be found as well just need to make a super powerful “unique monster” as the last wave for the ultra rare type of gathering node( color code them so people know what to expect when they start to harvest them ie green, blue, orange, purple colors relate to the power of the last wave etc..).
Or if they want to duplicate the system after you cleared out that camp of ogres, giants, skeletons, goblins a monster node appears, you click and it summons a big bad ogre, giant, vampire etc... There would no way to know when or where these things show up so a group can just claim part of a hex and wait for one
Anyway I don’t think it is a lost cause discussion and seems rather simple to implement based on the work that has been done to the game over the last few years since that discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is a relevant discussion. I am not sure we ever gave Ryan an answer he would find satisfactory enough to focus vital resources into it.
But many of us tried...
I think Ryan sort off answered his own question by this quote:
Here's where I'd kind of like this idea to go:
The random monster with the valuable loot that you memorably encounter and maybe get killed by a couple of times before you figure out how to kill it?
That's another player character.
You could probably say that encountering any leader of a settlement or well known company will be a rare and hard Encounter with possible good rewards. I am sure it is the kind of Boss-mob that has minions at his side and will spawn a lot of adds during the fight. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe the point of the original post was to see what non pvp or theme park things would be included in pfo. I know the main focus of the game is player driven content, but at the same time the 3 other people that I personally know signed up for the kickstarter because of the pathfinder aspect of the game. They are going to want to kill a dragon and explore the dungeons. I think if GW can implement things like what I described above they would have a better chance at keeping those types of people involved in the game long enough to see the appeal of settlement vs settlement as the main feature of the game.
If they do not placate at all to the theme park pve folks those people will not stay involved in the game longer than the 4 months play time they got with the kickstarter. Adding rare spawns to gathering nodes or duplicating that system for monster camps would provide them with more incentive to interact with larger groups and get more involved with other players and perhaps eventually get them involved e with the pvp aspect that the game will focus on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good idea, Hark. That seems like it'll already occur with monster escalations, as the closest settlements will want to nurture the escalation for a bit so that it drops better loot. So you have the dynamic of some people wanting to kill it right away, some people wanting to wait for a while and then kill it, and then a third group who want it to grow big and out of control so it causes problems for the nearby settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe the point of the original post was to see what non pvp or theme park things would be included in pfo. I know the main focus of the game is player driven content, but at the same time the 3 other people that I personally know signed up for the kickstarter because of the pathfinder aspect of the game. They are going to want to kill a dragon and explore the dungeons. I think if GW can implement things like what I described above they would have a better chance at keeping those types of people involved in the game long enough to see the appeal of settlement vs settlement as the main feature of the game.
If they do not placate at all to the theme park pve folks those people will not stay involved in the game longer than the 4 months play time they got with the kickstarter. Adding rare spawns to gathering nodes or duplicating that system for monster camps would provide them with more incentive to interact with larger groups and get more involved with other players and perhaps eventually get them involved e with the pvp aspect that the game will focus on.
Wandering players can be looked at as wandering monsters. Just far more complex. The hostility is not always assured. The challenge level is not always balanced. You will likely be looted of your unthreaded inventory if you lose. There are good things and negative feelings (both) in those differences.
I agree that the "feel" and the "flavor" are totally different and not everyone's cup of tea. It isn't really my own personal default, in preference. It will make fighting computer mobs doubly dangerous as well. There are plenty of dishonorable scoundrels that will love catching you worn down by "mobs".
Ryan has said that the PVE content will be expanded as they go, especially if crowdforging asks for it. It will be sparse to start though. I hope that your friends choose to stick it out until that time or wait and join when it happens, rather than start and quit before it does. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could take it other ways too. My first thought when I came up with the idea was a unique/near unique monster that so long as it is alive causes rare resources to spawn in the environment that don't exist unless the monster is alive. The monster however when killed drops a much more rare resource. Locals could harvest the rare resources that exist because the monster is alive and turn huge profits over a long period of time. Others though may want to kill it for its super rare drop, to deny the locals the rare resources, or both.
You could also use a lot more stick and less carrot too. Say your area has a super rare White Stag. The White Stag drops awesome resources. But if you kill the White Stag an incredibly dangerous Nature Escalation starts at a very advanced stage in which all sorts of animals and natures spirits get pissed off and attack everything in the area. It would need to take a lot of effort and be very obvious that people are hunting said White Stag so that the locals can respond and the White Stag doesn't become a total liability, but it could work.
There are lots of ways to iterate it and many systems to work with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding is that caves and dungeons will randomly spawn all over the map and allow for some PVE action, as well as the "wondering monster" is more or less an escalation that hasn't been dealt with. Escalations will continue to grow and wonder around and attack settlements and POIs if not dealt with soon. You want meaningful interactions, and reason to keep monsters alive? Why not protect an escalation until it gets big enough to threaten nearby settlements and their POIs? Protect it from the players trying to stop it. Like a necromancer protecting an undead escalation or something. It might be used as a pre-war tactic as well. Shape and guide an escalation to attack your enemies and while they are distracted, or weakened, you strike and claim their lands. That would take time and dedication, but think of the stories.....
Anyway, back to the OP, I think what you desire is already in the works. Maybe not as most theme parks are with them standing around in an area, but more alive and truly wondering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could take it other ways too. My first thought when I came up with the idea was a unique/near unique monster that so long as it is alive causes rare resources to spawn in the environment that don't exist unless the monster is alive. The monster however when killed drops a much more rare resource. Locals could harvest the rare resources that exist because the monster is alive and turn huge profits over a long period of time. Others though may want to kill it for its super rare drop, to deny the locals the rare resources, or both.
You could also use a lot more stick and less carrot too. Say your area has a super rare White Stag. The White Stag drops awesome resources. But if you kill the White Stag an incredibly dangerous Nature Escalation starts at a very advanced stage in which all sorts of animals and natures spirits get pissed off and attack everything in the area. It would need to take a lot of effort and be very obvious that people are hunting said White Stag so that the locals can respond and the White Stag doesn't become a total liability, but it could work.
There are lots of ways to iterate it and many systems to work with.
These sound like really good ideas to me. The settlement that is controlling the hex where the monster spawns would put in a lot of effort to keep it alive, since now they have a constant nearby source of increased resources.
Raiding enemyparties have something to aim for in enemy-lands that will yield them great loot. So instead of the scenario that Ryan describes where players have the farming of such a monster honed to perfection, they now have to contend with a PC-enemy too, on enemy-ground. This could even relieve the developers of the task of having to make the actual monster-kill something elaborate and exotic: they just need to make sure it takes time. The PC enemies will be the ones spicing the encounter up and making it into a dangerous undertaking.
You keep the "monster with the fat loot" feature and boosted Player interaction, and also Settlement pride and ownership (we have a genuine White Stag spawning in our hexes and it has not been killed in 3 months!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know the folks from my tabletop games have little interest in defeating Imuberwithaswordbro or orge mage, they have more interest in defeating His Mighty Girthness Chief Randwattle Gutwad (chief of the licktoad goblin clan for those wondering) after clearing a goblin camp or harvesting a gathering nod deep in goblin lands.
Since people don’t know when or where these nodes would show up, unless a group dedicates themselves to following you around and watching you till you find one (which would seem odd to be followed for like an hour..), I don’t think they can plan on attacking you when you are done with the big bad guy, now if they happen to find you during the fight they might, but those groups would attack you regardless if you fought “His Mighty Girthness Chief Randwattle Gutwad” or a plain “goblin bandit”.
Just my thoughts as usual, adding a familiar named bad guy to a few encounters will make the rpg tt folks I know feel like they are playing pathfinder. And considering the gathering nodes are already in place how much extra work would be involved to add a named bad guy to the last wave..
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not only can the Enemyparty look forward to some great loot if they pull the kill off, they strike a (small) blow to the settlement at the same time.
I guess the only requirement that seems not to be met in this scenario is the fact that it can be repeated thousands of times in a day. I do not think that the White Stag should respawn too quickly.
Then again, it is not so much the killing of the stag that is repeated many times, but the effort to try such and the resulting skirmishes between PC enemies. So maybe the requirement is met after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know the folks from my tabletop games have little interest in defeating Imuberwithaswordbro or orge mage, they have more interest in defeating His Mighty Girthness Chief Randwattle Gutwad (chief of the licktoad goblin clan for those wondering) after clearing a goblin camp or harvesting a gathering nod deep in goblin lands.
Since people don’t know when or where these nodes would show up, unless a group dedicates themselves to following you around and watching you till you find one (which would seem odd to be followed for like an hour..), I don’t think they can plan on attacking you when you are done with the big bad guy, now if they happen to find you during the fight they might, but those groups would attack you regardless if you fought “His Mighty Girthness Chief Randwattle Gutwad” or a plain “goblin bandit”.
Just my thoughts as usual, adding a familiar named bad guy to a few encounters will make the rpg tt folks I know feel like they are playing pathfinder. And considering the gathering nodes are already in place how much extra work would be involved to add a named bad guy to the last wave..
I am all for it. I like maybe that the "mob" could get a reputation (not mechanic) that he is a tough Mofo. When you see he is there, at least he could be a challenge that gets the blood flowing.
Without leveled zones, I wonder how you could make it dangerous to some and not a push over for most though? Maybe scaling to your party level? How will they balance these "random dungeons" to be challenging and not too easy or impossible? Since they have to conquer that, I don't see why they can't do the same for harvest spawns...
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know the folks from my tabletop games have little interest in defeating Imuberwithaswordbro or orge mage, they have more interest in defeating His Mighty Girthness Chief Randwattle Gutwad (chief of the licktoad goblin clan for those wondering) after clearing a goblin camp or harvesting a gathering nod deep in goblin lands.
It's a long march to get to Korvosa, sir. Don't think you'll get to the opportunity to meet Rendwattle. ;)
Just my thoughts as usual, adding a familiar named bad guy to a few encounters will make the rpg tt folks I know feel like they are playing pathfinder. And considering the gathering nodes are already in place how much extra work would be involved to add a named bad guy to the last wave.
At first I was going to comment on the fact that it seems unlikely that the same bad guy would keep showing up after you beat him. Then I considered that it would be really smart of GW to insinuate that some goblins are also Marked by Pharasma, if they ever wanted to make goblins a playable race sometime down the road. And of course you could extend the same "he keeps coming back because he's marked" excuse to other named humanoids.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rendwattle was just an example.. if PFO had pugawampi's I would of used King Mokknokk (but please do not bring those gremlins into the game!). the names are just names to highlight they are special in some way... Hopefully we get our own lore and known NPCs.
Anyway i think it should be reviewed, as gathering resources is something every settlement has to do daily / hourly at least give the task a super rare reward ( achievements, loot titles etc) that people can strive for over the course of months and years of harvesting gathering nodes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if the wandering rare monster is only in the "Locked to Finder" (for a time) dungeons? That means the person who found the dungeon gets to run it with their team and sometimes, but not often, there is a rare in it. Sure you would have people trying to find these dungeons but you will have that anyway if they exist. Or are these dungeons no longer in the road map?
I would love to have Rares of some sort but I do hate the camping aspect these have turned to in other MMOs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the whole reason I brought this up is that awesome feeling I had that first time, in Skyrim, I was just minding my own business in Riverwood one evening and noticed all the villagers start running. Looked up and there it was....big dragon. Loved it.
Unless you had a certain mod installed, the villagers were probably running toward the dragon to punch it. Gotta love the Bethesda games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sure you would have people trying to find these dungeons but you will have that anyway if they exist.I think the real question is whether the rare monster is valuable enough to warrant folks farming these kinds of dungeons so methodically that casual users never find them.
That's true but i think if they can make them random and then the rare spawn random as well then it would just be people looking for a dungeon anyway and not have much to do with the fact that a rare will sometimes spawn. If the randomness of these is high enough then those in monster hexes would just run into them on occasion so farming or camping wouldn't be worth it. Most likely those monster hexes near a settlement would have the Settlement try to protect that monster hex's PvE content for it's members but you will have that to a degree anyway. I would love to have some rares but understand the downside too.
Another thought is that maybe the rares don't drop anything different but instead change an escalation path or stomp it flat or ARE the way to end an escalation (or stop it's growth) and then they drop the trophy for the settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the randomness of these is high enough then those in monster hexes would just run into them on occasion so farming or camping wouldn't be worth it.
I could be wrong, but this seems like the exact case that Ryan addressed some time ago:
Here's what happens in modern MMOs if the game features rare monsters that drop better than average loot:
A group designates some of its members as the Spot the Foozle Team. These players (often multiboxing so they don't lose any time playing their Mains) monitor the area in question 24x7.
The instant the Foozle is detected, word goes out through the guild's communication channels - private message boards, in-game chat, SMS broadcasts, ventrillo, etc. Within literally minutes, a large group is assembled. This group has been outfitted with exactly the best gear to kill the Foozle. They have killed the Foozle hundreds of times and have choreographed their actions into a flawless ballet - they're fast, and have a low risk of consuming resources beyond the minimum necessary to kill the Foozle.
They move to the location of the Foozle using the fastest and most efficient transport. They know the lay of the land and can take any available shortcuts, the fastest route, the best mount, etc.
Within the minimum time possible given the distance to travel, the team arrives and takes the Foozle down. The loot is extracted and transported to a group storage facility where it will be consumed, or resold in the best possible market almost immediately.
Meanwhile, if you are randomly walking around the area the Foozle spawns in, you may have a chance to spectate at this event, but if you come too close to the Foozle, another team of anti-ninja-looters will respond to kill you or otherwise keep you from interfering.
Still think this sounds fun?
RyanD
I would be concerned that any perceived value in farming the Foozle would result in Foozle Hunters, Inc. finding virtually all the random dungeons themselves. This would have the perverse effect of ensuring that "regular" players almost never encountered random dungeons at all, much less the ones that contain the Foozle.
But again, mine is a superficial understanding of these things, and I might well be wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the randomness of these is high enough then those in monster hexes would just run into them on occasion so farming or camping wouldn't be worth it.I could be wrong, but this seems like the exact case that Ryan addressed some time ago:
I would be...Here's what happens in modern MMOs if the game features rare monsters that drop better than average loot:
A group designates some of its members as the Spot the Foozle Team. These players (often multiboxing so they don't lose any time playing their Mains) monitor the area in question 24x7.
The instant the Foozle is detected, word goes out through the guild's communication channels - private message boards, in-game chat, SMS broadcasts, ventrillo, etc. Within literally minutes, a large group is assembled. This group has been outfitted with exactly the best gear to kill the Foozle. They have killed the Foozle hundreds of times and have choreographed their actions into a flawless ballet - they're fast, and have a low risk of consuming resources beyond the minimum necessary to kill the Foozle.
They move to the location of the Foozle using the fastest and most efficient transport. They know the lay of the land and can take any available shortcuts, the fastest route, the best mount, etc.
Within the minimum time possible given the distance to travel, the team arrives and takes the Foozle down. The loot is extracted and transported to a group storage facility where it will be consumed, or resold in the best possible market almost immediately.
Meanwhile, if you are randomly walking around the area the Foozle spawns in, you may have a chance to spectate at this event, but if you come too close to the Foozle, another team of anti-ninja-looters will respond to kill you or otherwise keep you from interfering.
Still think this sounds fun?
RyanD
I read that thread and was trying to think of ways around Foozle Hunting groups but if there are going to be random dungeons are we going to have this anyway? Dungeon hunting groups? Doesn't matter if there are rares or not in the dungeons, they would get hunted. I think this could be cut down on to the degree that a settlement will be in power nearby and so the Dungeon hunting group may work for the settlement and benefit that settlement's PvE. Not sure of the exact system here but I would think that would cut down on one group worldwide owning all the dungeon/rare/foozle content. Maybe not though. I would just really love a way for rares to work somehow. I do remember that first time I came across one in EQ and it was awesome. Later once they were all camped it was horrible but I would still rather have them here and there (even if camped) rather than not at all.
There has to be a solution. It will probably take playing well into EE before it is found though as we have to really know how all the systems work before fitting something like this into it well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't really see dungeon hunting groups as a bad thing here, in the long term.
We are talking, after the game develops, of possibly hours of travel time between point a and point b. These dungeon hunters either camps a specific hex(es) and leaves giant portions of the map open to normal, or else spend large amounts of time travelling region to region, causing much the same effect. Plus all the things Wexel mentioned
