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Social skills, Knowledge skills, and double skill points I would imagine.And the aristocrat class is mechanically better at having these because?
Let's see:
- better connections
- better knowledge of politics
- better education
- better family ties
A fighter has as many skill points as is necessary for the concept. Why? Because it's an NPC, not a PC. NPCs aren't bound to the character creation rules the same way PCs are, by virtue of the power of DM fiat. Even if you wish to build your NPCs like PCs, it's a framework, not a cage.
A fighter has as many skill points as is necessary for the concept. Why? Because it's an NPC, not a PC. NPCs aren't bound to the character creation rules the same way PCs are, by virtue of the power of DM fiat. Even if you wish to build your NPCs like PCs, it's a framework, not a cage.Social skills, Knowledge skills, and double skill points I would imagine.And the aristocrat class is mechanically better at having these because?
Let's see:
- better connections
- better knowledge of politics
- better education
- better family ties
OR you do what I do and slap +5 inherent bonus into every stat on your BBEG.
I make them out of the same point buy I give players, but that doesn't mean I won't load them up in non-lootable wealth.
So yeah a human fighter starting out at 10 int with +6enh bonus to all stats items taken into account, comes out to 21 int or 8 skill points per level.
Kimera, are you assuming that the fighter can't take training in skills that aren't class skills? Because the +3 really isn't that important when we're talking about story logic. Ten ranks in Knowledge (nobility) is more than enough to keep your fellow nobles happy.
Plus, fighters have one Knowledge skill comes in real handy: Engineering. Mustn't forget that.
Kimera, are you assuming that the fighter can't take training in skills that aren't class skills? Because the +3 really isn't that important when we're talking about story logic. Ten ranks in Knowledge (nobility) is more than enough to keep your fellow nobles happy.That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.
Those are skills that, in a narrative role, are important. In other words, the BBEG is competing against, well, aristocrats who already have more ranks in Knowledge (nobility). The fighter needs to be a lot higher level than a competing aristocrat to keep his guys loyal. (Of course, he's plenty intimidating and might just kill said rival personally.)
Ok... You want your fighter to have as high a bonus in Knowledge (Nobility) as an aristocrat? Ta da! Your BBEG Fighter now has Knowledge (Nobility) as a class skill. Problem solved.
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That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.
The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.
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Kimera, are you assuming that the fighter can't take training in skills that aren't class skills? Because the +3 really isn't that important when we're talking about story logic. Ten ranks in Knowledge (nobility) is more than enough to keep your fellow nobles happy.That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.
If by "lot better" you mean "+3 extra".
In other words, the BBEG is competing against, well, aristocrats who already have more ranks in Knowledge (nobility).
What.
So hang on, let's analyze it. So there are competing BBEGs, all going up against each other like American Idol, trying to use their Knowledge (nobility) skills to impress their"Ug think Garlbrak Skullsqueezer is good leader, strong, powerful...but Charles Nappywinks the Gnome also raise good points in which fork to use for salad."
The fighter needs to be a lot higher level than a competing aristocrat to keep his guys loyal. (Of course, he's plenty intimidating and might just kill said rival personally.)...an engineering officer with levels of expert and a high Intelligence score will be better.
Not really.
1. Let's get this out of the way now. NPC classes don't become BBEGs. Why? Because once they get involved as Big Bads or Heroes, they start taking PC classes. So no, aristocrats and experts are not going to be competing with the fighter for rulership of the hobgoblin horde.2. Charisma and table manners do not impress a hobgoblin horde/army of ronin/elite team of Secret Police. Power impresses them. When it comes to BBEG, a key rule is that Asskicking Equals Authority.
3. What TOZ said. Wow, that felt weird to say.
To make a comparison to ATLA (and let's ignore the caster element): A powerful firebender is countered by a chessmaster who rules a team of dystopian police dudes. The Chessmaster is almost certainly a bit smarter, has a much higher Wisdom, and likely possesses more skill points, too. As for Charisma...well, it's hard to say.
But that doesn't matter. Because the reason the police dudes end up turning on the Chessmaster is because the firebender points out her element bending prowess is better than his.
He skedaddles. This was a matter of power, not Knowledge or Diplomacy.
Now, Charisma definitely played a role there, too. But a very particular form of Charisma, boosted by simply being better in a fight: Intimidate.
So ultimately, we appear to agree that the fighter will beat weaker adversaries by, well, beating them. We just differ on how we see this.
1. Let's get this out of the way now. NPC classes don't become BBEGs. Why? Because once they get involved as Big Bads or Heroes, they start taking PC classes. So no, aristocrats and experts are not going to be competing with the fighter for rulership of the hobgoblin horde.
Not true. I can make a commoner lich BBEG with an nigh-infinite construct army.
Let's not make arguments about BBEGs willing forgoing certain classes because others are better. In that department the fighter is lacking.
Actually, you can't. An adept lich, sure, but a commoner can't cast. :P
But my point was more thematic. NPC classes aren't meant for the "heroic" parts of the campaign. You can use them, yeah, and I'm sure it's sometimes thematically suitable, but my general rule of thumb would be, "Just use a PC class." That's what they're there for.
Actually, you can't. An adept lich, sure, but a commoner can't cast. :P
10str 14dex 14con 10int 10wis 18cha
(favored class bonus to health)
Skills(2+int+1race=3): Craft(alchemy),Perception,UMD
1|Additional talents(dangerously curious, Eyes and Ears of the City), Skill focus(UMD)
2|
3|Magical Aptitude
4|
5|Master Craftsman(alchemy)
6|
7|Craft Wondrous item
8|Skill focus(alchemy)
9|Master Alchemist
10|
11|Craft Arms and Armor
12|
13|Craft Construct
14|
15|Armor Proficiency, Light
16|Skill focus(perception)
17|Armor Proficiency, Medium
18|
19|Armor Proficiency, Heavy
20|
Strategy: Use craft alchemy to raise money and to make acid. Once you have enough resources go adventuring!
Use your share of the loot to buy more alchemical weapons until about level 4-5. Work in using wands with UMD once you can. By lvl 3 you have a +13 bonus or 70% chance to activate a wands. At mid levels you use magic crafting to outfit yourself and party with cheap magic items.
At 13 you retire from adventuring and use your alchemy to make more money while you craft your phylactery and turn into a lich. (be sure you can make the phylactery before dying of old age, also make a hat of disguise beforehand)
Now with your unlimited time make a golem army. (Note: once per decade go adventuring pretending to be a "bad touch" cleric to prevent the on set of demilichdom).
Now with your golem army concur the world!
By level 20 you can wear fullplate and pretend to be Sauron without the ring weakness.
NOTE: I love how commoners get perception as a class skill and fighters don't!
But my point was more thematic. NPC classes aren't meant for the "heroic" parts of the campaign. You can use them, yeah, and I'm sure it's sometimes thematically suitable, but my general rule of thumb would be, "Just use a PC class." That's what they're there for.
Problem with this argument is that it equally applies to the fighter.
And there we go again. We're not getting into yet another silly class debate. This thread is above that.
And there we go again. We're not getting into yet another silly class debate. This thread is above that.
You brought it back by insinuating certain classes CAN'T be BBEGs.
And there we go again. We're not getting into yet another silly class debate. This thread is above that.You brought it back by insinuating certain classes CAN'T be BBEGs.
Well, technically, any class can be a BBEG, since you can have a BBEG without stats, like a corrupt King or a Crime Lord, whose power comes entirely from the narrative power they hold. But for purposes such as this thread, that point is irrelevant, since statting up a BBEG is predicated on the assumption that combat is a possibility. Suddenly the character's power is not just defined by their narrative power, but also by their statistics (and a little bonus power thrown in there, for the fact that DM fiat is always a possibility, which falls in neither camp really, but overlaps a little with both). If you stat up your BBEG as an Aristocrat with no PC levels, chances are, if it comes down to a fight, they'll be lackluster. And if it doesn't come to a fight, it's not the class that made it work as a BBEG, but the Narrative power provided for being a function of the DM's story telling.
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The aristocrat's advantages aren't skill points, but the skills he can take training in. Quality over quantity (though he has both advantages).
I wonder if there's some kind of Skill Training feat in Pathfinder? That would fix a lot of issues for a leading fighter.
First off, this isn't 3.5, Class Skills only give a +3 bonus, secondly, Cosmopolitan and Extra Traits can both grant Class Skills, and the second can be taken multiple times.
A high level Fighter can easily have an 18-22 Int with items, and a 14-18 Charisma, that's easily on par with a Sorcerer villain for Int and a Wizard villain for Chr. With two Feats he can also have Diplomacy, Knowledge (Local), Sense Motive, and another couple of skills as Class Skills (Bluff and Knowledge - Nobility for example) fairly readily. How is he thematically unsuited to being a villain in charge again?
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High charisma and social skills aren't required to be in a position of power, though they help. Hereditary positions in particular (the evil king, prince, duke, baron, etc) can be occupied by any class - Aristocrat is simply a convenient NPC class for characters born into power who don't so anything more interesting.
I figure hobgoblins, a race of trained soldiers, would be impressed by tactical knowhow. They'll say "Under Commander Greenblood, we can't possibly lose! He thinks of everything." They're not going to care about smooth speaking, but they will gladly follow a commander who can keep their morale from breaking when an enemy commander outfoxes them and enemy troops show up from an unexpected direction, such as behind the hobgoblins when they're already in pitched combat with a group of enemy troops.
Why can't a high-level fighter do those things? Int 10, Cha 10, max ranks in Diplomacy and a bit of Knowledge (History), (Local), and (Engineering) to represent study of military tactics, and you're fine.
I'd also expect that hobgoblins, a race of trained soldiers, would be social outcasts if their morale were to break due to something as simple as enemy troops showing up from an unexpected direction.
I don't think Intimidate is the right skill for that. "Follow me into near-certain death or die to my hand." Not a great choice for his followers there.
The Romans certainly used a dose of intimidation to keep their troops in line - desertion was punished by beating/stoning to death. In fact, soldiers have been put to death for desertion as recently as WWII in the USA.
A lot of real life or fictional "fighters" would fall under such a class, or a Pathfinderized warblade instead. I would put people like Alexander the Great (real-life) and King Arthur (fictional) under such a class banner. Without such a class, fighter/aristocrat seems to work. Of course, this weakens their fighting ability (lower BAB, fewer feats, putting stat points into mental stats) and makes it hard to be a good "boss battle".
Not really - you just have to make sure the end result is an appropriate challenge. My last campaign's end boss was the tyrant king raised as a Graveknight - a Fighter 10 / Aristocrat 4 with Dazzling Display and Deadly Stroke. The Aristocrat levels were supposed to represent his "retirement" after he became too old to personally lead his armies. He was supported by a 10th level Inquisitor and 9th level Sorcerer. The sorcerer was taken out early with a save-or-suck and the King got into an epic duel with the party barbarian, who killed the King but took heavy enough injuries that the Inquisitor immediately killed him in revenge before being killed herself. All around lots of fun.
My current campaign is a little more open-ended in who the PCs decide to side with or fight, but one possible opponent is a martial (no casting, and no aristocrat levels this time) with a couple of casting and partial-casting lieutenants.
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I thought this was about posting times when people have used a fighter as a BBEG? Not a pissing contest on who's right about martials not having nice things?
All the same, this isn't the place for fighter vs. barbarian. If class vs. class matters for a BBEG, maybe you need to give him a few more levels. :P
** spoiler omitted **
If you go total defense you lose AoO ability so he can just grapple you without needing Improved grapple.
He has higher strength so he'll win.
Otherwise rage doesn't stop most tactics so use Feint, denying total defense boost and then Power attack and kill the Fighter.
Okay, going down the list here:
-- Fighters tend to dump Int and Cha, making them less plausible as bosses
-- Fighters don't DO much except make melee attacks. This makes them both less plausible as bosses, and less interesting as BBEGs.
-- Fighters tend to have one or more glass jaws, such as low Will saves.
-- Fighters are built for deivering damage over long periods, not at the sort of explosion of one-use and dailies we want in a BBEG fight.Gotta say, that's actually a pretty damning list. People don't generally use fighter BBEGs, and /there are good reasons for that/.
Doug M.
Perhaps it's playstyle differences, but I fail to see how any of that can't be overcome.
--They don't need to follow Point buy or anything like that, so their Int and Cha are whatever you need them to be.
--PC fighters don't do much other than Melee attacks, but that's because the RAW makes everything else pretty worthless in comparison. However, with NPCs, you don't need to work strictly with the RAW, so tactics which would be impossible to base a character around as a PC are viable.
--The Will save issue is a more difficult one, but, honestly, is easily fixable by boosting it. It's not a PC, so you don't have to be a slave to the numbers on the chart.
--The one-use or daily use conundrum is another place where not being a slave to the charts helps. It's not a matter of not having use/day issues, what matters is looking at the single encounter and making sure they match up with the power level expected of a BBEG boss. This can be done without giving them anything more than at-will abilities, just so long as those abilities are sufficiently powerful for a BBEG type enemy.Sure, by RAW, those are problems, but that requires being a slave to RAW when making your BBEG, which I don't think I've ever done, even with casters.
If you go ignoring the rules anything can work but by the system's rules fighters are not good bosses, and for the purpose of consistency I dont like for NPC's to ignore rules. Maybe 1 or 2 may have a mcguffin, but good players will see through it, if it is constant and that could affect immersion.
And there we go again. We're not getting into yet another silly class debate. This thread is above that.You brought it back by insinuating certain classes CAN'T be BBEGs.
You can use them, yeah,
I never said NPC classes couldn't be BBEGs because they're weak. I said they shouldn't, because they are classes explicitly designed to be limited and weak.
Oh, and with regards to "what is Charisma"--I wasn't defining Charisma, I was defining skills. Charisma is personal magnetism of all forms. Almost every BBEG needs at least a 12 Charisma.
If you go ignoring the rules anything can work but by the system's rules fighters are not good bosses, and for the purpose of consistency I dont like for NPC's to ignore rules. Maybe 1 or 2 may have a mcguffin, but good players will see through it, if it is constant and that could affect immersion.
Well, you really shouldn't use the same class for all your villains no matter what. :P
I think I'll have the party face an undead fighter soon.
I had one notable encounter with a fighter as the end-boss. Paired adamantite weapons and some sunder pretty much broke up the party very quickly. Most of his magical gear was in shoring up obvious weaknesses (mostly the will save)
It was a smaller group who, IMHO probably should have been better armed knowing their foe, and probably would have benefited if they had not been weakened by perimeter defences first (one trap, a trio of adepts with burning hands, a zombie Chimera and his loyal defenders)
Incidentally...it was a TPK.
Batts
LOVE YOUR SCREENNAME DOOD. ICZER THREE FOR LIFE!!!!
Kobold Cleaver...Sorry if I came across sounding like BBEG was alone. I don't believe in unsupported bad guys, be they lieutenants or not. As for point value...sure, me as the GM is well within my rights to give the fighter whatever stats I like, and any spell like ability I like, or billions of gold worth of resources. Personally I prefer a more consistent game. An NPC might have a higher point buy than the party, but it likely isn't going to be much higher. Anything else I'm going to want some sort of story justification. Why is this army following this person? Where did they get the wealth they have? In the game world, I can't fathom a fighter ever amounting to much of anything, short of GM fiat.
Kydeem...I was going under the assumption, from the original post, we were talking end of a campaign type person. In the case of lieutenants, I absolutely agree that fighters have worth there. A bodyguard the party has to fight before they make it to the final encounter, the thug enforcer the thieve's guild's guildmaster sends out to rough up particularly troublesome goody-two-shoes. That sort of thing.
The anti party idea has merit, though in my own personal opinion it seems a little forced that it's a fighter at the heart of the group.
As for fantasy literature...I think that's a dangerous road to go down personally. For one, a lot of fantasy fighters don't compare with Pathfinder fighters all that well, short of just being able to put stats however one likes. Also, on the idea of promotion through ability, I think there's just as many examples where someone earns a promotion through that, and is shown to be a bad choice because all they know how to do is kill/fight. The old Dark Sun novels were a great example in my opinion. Rikus the gladiator was scary good in a fight...but once he found himself in a position of even leading troops into battle he fell apart because all he knew how to do was hit things. He even had the charm to get people to follow him...they just followed him to their deaths because...
DARK SUN FOR LIFE!!
OR you do what I do and slap +5 inherent bonus into every stat on your BBEG.
What's wonderful is you can even justify this in-character while working entirely within the rules. Rise of the Runelords has noted with its villain that you can use a spell like Wish to slap a +5 bonus onto an ability score (or multiple ability scores, if you use multiple wishes), so just say that your BBEG (assuming he's incapable of casting such a spell himself), simply ordered or paid someone else to cast it, or traded a favour, or did whatever else it took in order to have such work done.
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What's wonderful is you can even justify this in-character while working entirely within the rules. Rise of the Runelords has noted with its villain that you can use a spell like Wish to slap a +5 bonus onto an ability score (or multiple ability scores, if you use multiple wishes), so just say that your BBEG (assuming he's incapable of casting such a spell himself), simply ordered or paid someone else to cast it, or traded a favour, or did whatever else it took in order to have such work done.
Yep. +4 to everything is also explicitly +1 CR via the Advanced Simple Template, so as long as you give the +1, it's totally rules-kosher to ignore the gold costs of that. So it works both in-world and mechanically.
If you go ignoring the rules anything can work but by the system's rules fighters are not good bosses, and for the purpose of consistency I dont like for NPC's to ignore rules. Maybe 1 or 2 may have a mcguffin, but good players will see through it, if it is constant and that could affect immersion.Okay, going down the list here:
-- Fighters tend to dump Int and Cha, making them less plausible as bosses
-- Fighters don't DO much except make melee attacks. This makes them both less plausible as bosses, and less interesting as BBEGs.
-- Fighters tend to have one or more glass jaws, such as low Will saves.
-- Fighters are built for deivering damage over long periods, not at the sort of explosion of one-use and dailies we want in a BBEG fight.Gotta say, that's actually a pretty damning list. People don't generally use fighter BBEGs, and /there are good reasons for that/.
Doug M.
Perhaps it's playstyle differences, but I fail to see how any of that can't be overcome.
--They don't need to follow Point buy or anything like that, so their Int and Cha are whatever you need them to be.
--PC fighters don't do much other than Melee attacks, but that's because the RAW makes everything else pretty worthless in comparison. However, with NPCs, you don't need to work strictly with the RAW, so tactics which would be impossible to base a character around as a PC are viable.
--The Will save issue is a more difficult one, but, honestly, is easily fixable by boosting it. It's not a PC, so you don't have to be a slave to the numbers on the chart.
--The one-use or daily use conundrum is another place where not being a slave to the charts helps. It's not a matter of not having use/day issues, what matters is looking at the single encounter and making sure they match up with the power level expected of a BBEG boss. This can be done without giving them anything more than at-will abilities, just so long as those abilities are sufficiently powerful for a BBEG type enemy.Sure, by RAW, those are problems, but that requires being a slave to RAW when making your BBEG, which I don't think I've ever done, even with casters.
NPCs can ignore rules because they're NPCs. Rules exist for PCs. "Consistency" as you claim, is actually more immersion breaking to me and my group than its absence. To claim that the entirety of the world, NPC and PC, falls into ~20 neat little catagories.
closest thing i had to a Fighter BBEG was
an optimized reskinned onispawn tiefling barbarian, demonic nekomimi with lotsa DR and pounce, plus other things. she was a 12th level BBEG in a CR 17 Encounter. despite her wealth, i considered her CR 11 because i don't factor treasure into challenge rating, i wing it as appropriate
she had a 10th level Life Oracle and 10th level bard helping her, for Cr13
and 16 level 8 Ranger Soldiers for CR 17
all of them had PC gear due to their epic conquest. the Rangers were Onispawn tieflings reskinned as Nekomimi, the bard was a half-nymph and the melee capable life oracle was an angelkin
they all had fey foundling as one of their feats
the fight was a CR 17 encounter for a 13th level party
the oracle had selective channel and enough Cha to exclude the PCs. while the bard gave everyone, Haste, Good hope and Inspire Courage
it wasn't a big bad fighter, but it was a barbarian with a lot of rangers and the fight was definitely scary. 13th level party was frightened. especially by the barbarian more than the bard and oracle, but the first thing they had to do, was wipe out the rangers because the rangers had so many attacks and they all had clustered shots and +4 favored enemy bonus against humans, which most of the party was. either they were human, or wasted a resource counting as human for stuff. lots of scion of humanity planetouched and a dwarf of human descent.
the only thing keeping the rangers in check was that they were switch hitters built to do better in melee with their nodachis. if they were proper ranged builds, the party would have been screwed
but the party was given time to prebuff and nova to take the military unit down.
it wasn't a final boss, but it was an end of Arc boss.
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The only time I've had a BBEG manage to lose the fight and still win, it was a fighter.
The entire time, he was taking orders from the wizard in his group. So, naturally, everyone assumed the wizard was the leader. Once they killed the wizard, the BBEG immediately surrendered, begging for his life and saying how it was he was just following orders during the life. The players, out of mercy, let him go.
It wasn't until the players noticed the magical artifact allowing someone to ascend to godhood was missing, which was why they were fighting the BBEG in the first place, that they realized their mistake. The BBEG? He simply walked out the front door of the dungeon, activated the artifact, and then dropped a mountain on the dungeon.
Ooh, nice. Did the PCs survive?
Ooh, nice. Did the PCs survive?
the PCs survived by Nova-ing the swarm of Rangers with nearly everything they had. but not without suffering massive damage, the barbarian was the one they fought last and the prime objective, but the buffed rangers were so darn annoying with their massive combined damage output.
it was pretty much, penalizing them for counting as human to milk human exclusive power boons in a sense and a big finale for the Arc. there were 10 out of 15 PCs surviving that night, and well lotsa cohorts, pets and summons died honorably with no penalty to leadership score due to circumstances, the party should have fought APL 24 challenges, but i hit them hard with an APL 17 challenge intended to get them lots of loot for the next adventure. the NPCs were buffed out the wazoo, exploiting consumables and blowing through party resources.
15 Pets died, 15 cohorts died, 5 PCs died, the last 10 barely won by the skin of their teeth
but the Elite Guards of the Tiger Brigade, the Black Tigresses, were deadly and proved a threat both with Nodachi and bow.
the whole party, except the pets, was either human, had the human subtype, or used a resource to count as human, but either way, they all had human exclusive power options they wanted and they won the close range fight, after being heavily wounded at long range getting close. the switch hitters and few arcanists did the most harm, pretty much, the melee only builds were buffing and closing in, the majority of the fight was at range till it got close quarters
it was on open plains, at sunset. most of the party had low light or darkvision, due to buffs or race, and well, it was the grand battle to stop the raid of the tiger brigade that had been enroaching their homelands for 8 levels.
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"When's the last time a Fighter was your big bad evil villain?"
Around the last time I plaid Baldur's Gate...
And that totally does not happnes when the BBEG is another class? Does the other classes BBEG are of the same level of the party
3-4 higher, tops.
or do not they use companions, or have monsters to defend themselves?A wizard in his bathrobe can (with a few moments notice bought by the screams of his dying minions aka encounters 1-3) be a fairly credible threat. The big bad fighter needs a good weapon and good armor to function and that makes him a treasurebath.
A naked fighter with a single weapon can too. Depends on the encounter.
Neither the naked wizard nor the naked fighter against a prepared encounter of appropriate CR is long for the world. Though the wizard could at least say screw it and teleport away.
A rogue assassin is not fun for a wizard...not really fun for any class.
That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.
Fighter might be able to beat a Solar in an anti-magic field, though likely the solar will shoot him with arrows. Toe to toe, a fighter is a vastly superior damage dealer to a solar...at least most fighter builds.
I thought being able to summon a solar would be cool. He was like a pellet gun compared to the two-hander warrior and come and get me barbarian. Two-hander warriors do insane damage. Best thing a warrior can do is buff them up, boost their mobility, and let them start swinging. No one wants to get close to a two-hander fighter. One hit and your hurt, one crit and you're dead.
"When's the last time a Fighter was your big bad evil villain?"
Around the last time I plaid Baldur's Gate...
Now all I can imagine is a retexture of Baldur's Gate where all the colors are plaid.
That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.Fighter might be able to beat a Solar in an anti-magic field, though likely the solar will shoot him with arrows. Toe to toe, a fighter is a vastly superior damage dealer to a solar...at least most fighter builds.
I thought being able to summon a solar would be cool. He was like a pellet gun compared to the two-hander warrior and come and get me barbarian. Two-hander warriors do insane damage. Best thing a warrior can do is buff them up, boost their mobility, and let them start swinging. No one wants to get close to a two-hander fighter. One hit and your hurt, one crit and you're dead.
so basically, a buffed 20th level fighter with the 2handed fighter archetype, specialized in the scythe, with all sorts of buffs active, can badly wound a solar with a standard action scythe swing for quintuple damage?
that isn't fighters, that is specialized scythe wielding 2handed fighters built to maximize crits for huge damage standard action attacks for what basically amounts to the melee equivalent to to a fusion of pounce and clustered shots.
it's a build born on a vaccuum that expects a fighter to specialize in an inferior weapon for 19 levels to use the best 20th level weapon when he can truly make it shine.
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so basically, a buffed 20th level fighter with the 2handed fighter archetype, specialized in the scythe, with all sorts of buffs active, can badly wound a solar with a standard action scythe swing for quintuple damage?
that isn't fighters, that is specialized scythe wielding 2handed fighters built to maximize crits for huge damage standard action attacks for what basically amounts to the melee equivalent to to a fusion of pounce and clustered shots.
it's a build born on a vaccuum that expects a fighter to specialize in an inferior weapon for 19 levels to use the best 20th level weapon when he can truly make it shine.
Huh? Where did he say anything specifically about the Archetype, or most particularly scythes? He said a two-hander Fighter did ridiculous damage...which is true without either of the things you list.
Though the Archetype might've been implied, I guess. On the other hand...who said you couldn't use Archetypes?
so basically, a buffed 20th level fighter with the 2handed fighter archetype, specialized in the scythe, with all sorts of buffs active, can badly wound a solar with a standard action scythe swing for quintuple damage?
that isn't fighters, that is specialized scythe wielding 2handed fighters built to maximize crits for huge damage standard action attacks for what basically amounts to the melee equivalent to to a fusion of pounce and clustered shots.
it's a build born on a vaccuum that expects a fighter to specialize in an inferior weapon for 19 levels to use the best 20th level weapon when he can truly make it shine.
Huh? Where did he say anything specifically about the Archetype, or most particularly scythes? He said a two-hander Fighter did ridiculous damage...which is true without either of the things you list.
Though the Archetype might've been implied, I guess. On the other hand...who said you couldn't use Archetypes?
it's pretty much the one way to get nasty standard action damage as a fighter without worrying about damage reduction, and one of the only fighter related thing that does viable damage to a solar in an antimagic field.
because the solar is a better fighter than the fighter, and has 20th level cleric spells on top of that. you pretty much need to focus on one thing to outperform a solar.
it's not that archetypes are not allowed or are a bad thing, but i was pointing out the one viable trick for a fighter to combat a solar in an antimagic field.
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Fighter might be able to beat a Solar in an anti-magic field, though likely the solar will shoot him with arrows. Toe to toe, a fighter is a vastly superior damage dealer to a solar...at least most fighter builds.That was already addressed. Anyone can take skills that aren't class skills. It's just that someone else can take those same skills and be a lot better.The fighter also has the feats to take those Skill Focuses or Extra Traits to have equal skills to the aristocrat.
Note the solars Regeneration 15 and Damage Reduction 15, combined with high speed. Sure, if it goes hand to hand with the fighter, notices it loses out, but continues anyway rather than just back off a bit and fire arrows or heal (when outside the anti-magic field it can cast heal quite nicely).
Best thing a warrior can do is buff them up, boost their mobility, and let them start swinging. No one wants to get close to a two-hander fighter. One hit and your hurt, one crit and you're dead.
I'd like to see a fighter in an anti-magic field that kills a solar on a single crit. Not only would they need to do 408 damage, they'd also need some non-magic way to bypass the regeneration.
It might be possible with some spirited charge build, but it's severely limited in that it requires a non-magic flying mount that don't die from an AoO, and that it only attacks once per round (which makes it much less likely to confirm a crit against the AC 39 solar).
EDIT: Now, it's a matter of a BBEG fighting a called creature so maybe wealth is irrelevant, but I'd also like to note that the solar, if given a few days, can grant itself +5 to all ability scores that remain in the field. The fighter cannot do that for free, and would have to use tomes for 137500 gp per ability score.
the fighter won't drop the solar in one round, but i mentioned a level 20 exclusive trick that allows the fighter to wound a solar using a standard action x5 2handed autocrit that falls apart due to inferior speed, and requiring so many conditions to pull off.
thing is, it's your only attack, and while the damage is indeed nasty, to the solar, it is but a flesh wound that will heal in a matter of rounds, and the technique is only available with a level 20 capstone and the level 19 capstone alongside it, on a very specific archetype of the fighter class
and it requires you to actually get close enough to melee the solar with your scythe
in other words, even that trick falls apart.
I would put people like Alexander the Great (real-life) and King Arthur (fictional) under such a class banner.Alexander was probably an aristocrat with delusions of fighterdom. He most certainly had the aristocratic skillset. He most certainly lacked the fighter's personal prowess (but was fond of charging into the breach and giving his whole army a heart attack anyway).
I think it is safe to assume that Alexander wasent a PF character. But he most definitely was a well trained soldier, among many other things.
the fighter won't drop the solar in one round, but i mentioned a level 20 exclusive trick that allows the fighter to wound a solar using a standard action x5 2handed autocrit that falls apart due to inferior speed, and requiring so many conditions to pull off.
thing is, it's your only attack, and while the damage is indeed nasty, to the solar, it is but a flesh wound that will heal in a matter of rounds, and the technique is only available with a level 20 capstone and the level 19 capstone alongside it, on a very specific archetype of the fighter class
and it requires you to actually get close enough to melee the solar with your scythe
in other words, even that trick falls apart.
Would that even have a decent chance of working if you get adjacent?
The fighter has a max strength of 20+5+5=30 in the antimagic field, assuming a +5 inherent, and if we're going to assume that we'd have to assume the solar has a +5 inherent to con (as it can get it for free unlike the fighter).
As far as I can think of, damage would be:
2d4 + 15 (str) + 18 (PA) + 4 (WT) + 4 (GWS) -15 (DR) = 2d4+26, or on a crit 10d4+190. Max is 230, which is a bit over half what's needed to drop the solar (due to inherent bonus to con it has 404 hit points).
(note that overhand chop and devastating strike are not compatible)
Attack bonus would be:
20 (BAB) + 10 (str) +4 (WT) + 2 (GWF) + 1 (MW weapon) -5 (Dev. strike) -6 (PA) = +26, so the fighter would need to roll a 13 to hit with her only attack.
If using a full attack instead (which I think would be preferable), damage would be 2d4+31 on a regular hit and 10d4+210 on a crit. Attack routine would be +31/+26/+21/+16, which means it's likely to hit a few times per round, and with a 19+ crit range the chance of a crit is decent too, at 31%.
But then again the solar has no reason to stay in melee with the fighter for long, and has a ranged weapon that does more than most things a melee-specced fighter could bring up. The chain above took only 5 feats though, so it's not impossible to spend the feats for being a switch hitter.
That said, a BBEG should have a few levels on the party, and so if the party can call a solar (which basically requires a level 20 cleric custom built for the purpose) the fighter should have a few templates, mythic ranks or similar to empower it further.
A cr 19 NPC is much more of a relevant BBEG for a party that's say around level 15, so it's more likely the party would be able to call lesser creatures like Astral Devas or Mariliths.
Now, a naturally flying BBEG with strong non-magic ranged attacks could probably benefit from having something like a permanent widened anti-magic field.
It'd have to be a naturally strong creature, with a quite good dexterity. Perhaps something like a half-fiend stone giant fighter.
and if we're going to assume that we'd have to assume the solar has a +5 inherent to con (as it can get it for free unlike the fighter).
Even if we play like that, the solar already used its treasure to get its weapons and armor i think, it can only get +1 on each stat for free.