I picked up the Character Add-On just yesterday and started playing Lini (with my daughters as Kyra and Amiri). I felt frustrated by how difficult it was to make a decent combat check. I'd often have to discard to roll 1d10 for Strength rather than 1d4, I'd reveal an animal ally for 1d4 and Amulet of Mighty Fists for another 1d4, provided I had all this in hand. I still felt uneasy about making combat checks higher than 12, and if I was missing any if those I was throw in a Blessing (or beg for one). Whilst it was good to be able to cast Strength sometimes too, I couldn't always recharge it and didn't like losing another card to the discard pile. The Divine spells don't feel all that useful, either in combat or out.
I do like the 1d4 to a check from revealing an animal ally and found that I acquired more cards than any other player. I guess this is the key to Lini, being able to pick up resources along the way and use them.
Advice?
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Lini starts with 6 spells. Make two of them Inflict, and use it as your primary weapon. Discarding to wild shape and get 1d10 strength should be strictly a backup plan.
Actually, since you've got Kyra in your group, you can probably get away with only one Cure, rather than 2-3 if you were the only healer, so maybe try for three of Inflict. I'm still trying to figure out why Inflict isn't on the starting list for any character.
As you already figured out, keeping an animal ally in hand is key. NEVER discard your last animal companion. It adds 1d4 to every single check.
The key to Lini in a party is begging a melee fighter for a weapon. You play with Amiri? Awesome, ask her for a Club on turn. Now you're getting 2d4+1d8 before you even discard anything. That's 9.5 average before you do anything. If you have a blessing, it's better to discard it to 1d10 str than to add another 1d4.
As a corollary, it's stupidly important for Amiri not to load up on too many martial weapon proficiency cards so she always has a present for Lini.
I wouldn't say that discarding for 1d10 strength should be strictly a backup plan, more that squeaking by with 2d4+1d8 should be an opportunistic strike whenever you think you can get away with it. The more players in the game, the less you should be afraid to discard for strength.
If losing cards to discard is an issue for you, play more copies of Cure.
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Yup - Lini actually seems to be just about the most flexible character in the game. With most, there's one obvious best way to play the character. With Lini, you've got three main combat choices: offensive spells like Inflict, discard for 1d10 strength while keeping lots of Cure spells to get back the discards, or get a melee weapon. Personally, I'm a big fan of the blasting spells when playing her.
I love playing as Lini and had no problems bashing monsters with my paws. When I last ran her it was in a 2p game and she carried 3 cures, so I discarded a card every combat, spent my blessings freely (2d10 + 1d4 is not a bad roll to have!) and then cured them back. Having (1d10 + 1d4) for all DEX checks is nice too.
Thanks for the tips - I hadn't thought about borrowing a weapon, that sounds like a feasible/fun way to play.
I was thinking today how very useful Lini is: +1d4 to every check is awesome. She can acquire just about anything that comes up - awesome.
Owner - Griffonest Games
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Lini, as played by Scott's 10-year old daughter:
Greataxe (essentially lots of dice -1 because of lack of proficiency - has been heavy crossbow since bear is dexterous, as well)
Snake
Toad
Saber-Toothed Tiger (started with dog and two crows)
Blessing of Gorum x2 (makes for some powerful bear claws or axe swings)
Blessing of Lamashtu
Blessing of Desna
Find Traps
Detect Evil
Aid
Holy Light
Cure x2
Token of Remembrance
Amulet of Mighty Fists
She shaped it, with little help from me. I play Harsk, wife plays Seoni. A very well-rounded group that compliments each other quite well.
I don't understand why people give Lini the Snake. It's an animal, but it's almost useless for her since she almost never uses MELEE... I'd rather have the Crow!
Oh, and @Cheez - you might want to rethink that set for Lini. If you give her an ally which is not an animal you might draw that at the start of the game and then you're not going to get your +d4 on all checks. Losing that is very painful for Lini! It would be better to give Poog to somebody else so Lini can surround herself with her forest friends.
I don't understand why people give Lini the Snake. It's an animal, but it's almost useless for her since she almost never uses MELEE... I'd rather have the Crow!
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The Crow is very good. i suppose if your going for a Lini build that is going for a weapon card feat, or have been given or acquired one on a scenario then the Snake could play a part in that type of deck if you really want to get the most out of that d4.
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Owner - Griffonest Games
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Did you add weapons proficiency to Lini as one of the rewards (assuming so since she doesn't have it for starters) so she could start with a weapon in her deck?
The weapon "in the deck" is a card feat. Being able to use it without penalty is a power feat (proficiency). Some weapons do not penalize you for using them without proficiency.
I just looked up Poog. Pretty good - a bit like father Zantus. I may have to look up how much these are out there...
The key to Lini in a party is begging a melee fighter for a weapon. You play with Amiri? Awesome, ask her for a Club on turn. Now you're getting 2d4+1d8 before you even discard anything. That's 9.5 average before you do anything. If you have a blessing, it's better to discard it to 1d10 str than to add another 1d4.
I realise that there is no rule against it in the PFACG, but if this was the Pathfinder RPG could Lini in bear form use a melee weapon?
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The key to Lini in a party is begging a melee fighter for a weapon. You play with Amiri? Awesome, ask her for a Club on turn. Now you're getting 2d4+1d8 before you even discard anything. That's 9.5 average before you do anything. If you have a blessing, it's better to discard it to 1d10 str than to add another 1d4.I realise that there is no rule against it in the PFACG, but if this was the Pathfinder RPG could Lini in bear form use a melee weapon?
In the RPG, the wild shape ability allows a druid to morph into any of several animal forms. Some of them, like apes, have hands with opposable thumbs, and thus are capable of using a weapon.
The key to Lini in a party is begging a melee fighter for a weapon. You play with Amiri? Awesome, ask her for a Club on turn. Now you're getting 2d4+1d8 before you even discard anything. That's 9.5 average before you do anything. If you have a blessing, it's better to discard it to 1d10 str than to add another 1d4.I realise that there is no rule against it in the PFACG, but if this was the Pathfinder RPG could Lini in bear form use a melee weapon?In the RPG, the wild shape ability allows a druid to morph into any of several animal forms. Some of them, like apes, have hands with opposable thumbs, and thus are capable of using a weapon.
Yes, but bears?
I have seen a type of bear (a panda perhaps) using a twig or grass leaf or something as a tool to extract termite from a log, so I guess at least one bear species can use tools. I don't know enough about bears, do they have opposable thumbs?Seeing an angry bear with a club would be scary, seeing would with a longsword would scare me to death.
Bears probably can't wield weapons.
On the bright side, in PFRPG, animals often possess natural attacks on par with or better than weapons. Not only that, but a very sizable chunk of damage comes from str bonus and magic, rather than the base damage die.
The moral of the story is be scared of bears with swords, but also be equally scared of bears without swords.
Bears probably can't wield weapons.
It may not make (real world) sense for a bear to wield a weapon, but if you're applying logic, don't forget the fact that you're playing as a character that can morph into an animal at will. I would believe the bear-with-a-sword story over girl-in-bear-form any day of the week.
With regards to the PFRPG, I would think that anyone who could transform their entire body into another shape could have some control over said shape and make the decision to leave the hands less bear-like and more humanoid (i.e. opposing thumbs) depending on what they plan to use them for. However, I don't play the RPG, so there may be some rule specifying otherwise. That said, in a world that contains this (or any) type of magic, does it make sense to say "that doesn't make sense" about anything?
Specific to the PFACG, unless it specifically says "you may not play a weapon" or "this counts as playing a weapon" I would think you would be allowed to play a weapon from your hand as well.
As @OberonViking said originally, there's no rules preventing Lini from using weapons and bear form in PACG.
Thought I'd comment on one thing, though...
Specific to the PFACG, unless it specifically says "you may not play a weapon" or "this counts as playing a weapon" I would think you would be allowed to play a weapon from your hand as well.
This is not quite right... Most weapons are played 'for your combat check', i.e. in the 'Determine the skill' step of the encounter. Only one card can be played in this step so the restriction on playing weapons with other cards is a bit wider than @FlatTheImpaler suggests (e.g. cannot play the Acid Arrow Spell and a weapon, nor the Wand of Force Missiles and a weapon).
You can use each power once AND one of each card type.
So, yes, you can use both powers. Rarr!!!
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I just looked up Poog. Pretty good - a bit like father Zantus. I may have to look up how much these are out there...
Poog is, in fact, one of the best allies available in the game at present. I'm not sure I'd put him on Lini, since she needs an animal in-hand to make use of her +d4. If you have Seoni in the roster, I'd give it to her - she can usually stand to make use of Poog's healing spell, since she tends to burn through cards from time to time.
As @OberonViking said originally, there's no rules preventing Lini from using weapons and bear form in PACG.
Thought I'd comment on one thing, though...
Specific to the PFACG, unless it specifically says "you may not play a weapon" or "this counts as playing a weapon" I would think you would be allowed to play a weapon from your hand as well.This is not quite right... Most weapons are played 'for your combat check', i.e. in the 'Determine the skill' step of the encounter. Only one card can be played in this step so the restriction on playing weapons with other cards is a bit wider than @FlatTheImpaler suggests (e.g. cannot play the Acid Arrow Spell and a weapon, nor the Wand of Force Missiles and a weapon).
Since weapons are only usable for Combat checks anyway, I was not implying that weapons could be played outside of combat. I was also not implying that you can play 2 weapons, 2 spells, or a spell and a weapon for the same check.
My point is that her skill might not (and I've had a chance to look it up; it does not) explicitly say that it counts as playing any type of card, so it is not considered "playing a card" at all. I guess it also depends on whether or not discarding a card to activate her ability is considered playing a card, but my understanding of "discard a card" is that it would not.
You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check.
Here's my train of thought:
1) Encounter a Monster, resulting in a Combat check.2) Reveal your weapon "for your combat check", setting the type of check to either Strength/Melee or Dexterity/Ranged. (Only 1 card is played during "determine the skill" step.)
3) Since you haven't yet rolled, discard a card (possibly even the weapon you revealed; this seems cheap, but not illegal) to change your Strength or Dexterity die to d10. You're not changing the skill at this point, only the base die to be rolled.
4) Play other modifier cards or powers, adhering to the 1-per-type rules as normal.
5) Roll the dice.
Even if you don't use a weapon in combat, activating her power doesn't "determine the check" at all. You've already determined that the attack will be a basic Strength-based check; you're just changing which die you roll as your Strength die when it comes time to roll. Basically, step 2 would be playing no card to take the default then modifying the die in step 3.
For your combat check, you may discard a card to roll your Arcane die + 1d6 (+1) (+2) with the Attack, Fire, and Magic traits. This counts as playing a spell.
Contrast Lini's power from Seoni's, which specifically includes both the "for your combat check" and "this counts as playing a <card type>" qualifiers, whereas Lini's does not mention either.
Sorry, I wasn't saying that you were wrong, just pointing out the nuances of your statement (in the more general context) for anybody else that comes across this thread!
In PACG, Lini is a mace wielding bear-shaped powerhouse!
To open the other compartment in this box of pandora's worms - do you think Lini should be allowed to wield weapons in bear form? Should there be a rule against it? Is it overpowered, especially for this character who is already good at everything? Does the lack of weapon proficiency and inability to carry a weapon between scenarios mitigate this enough?
Yup - Lini actually seems to be just about the most flexible character in the game. With most, there's one obvious best way to play the character. With Lini, you've got three main combat choices: offensive spells like Inflict, discard for 1d10 strength while keeping lots of Cure spells to get back the discards, or get a melee weapon. Personally, I'm a big fan of the blasting spells when playing her.
In general, I agree. However, in practice I'm finding this to be a tad difficult. Even if you're managing to recharge inflict/holy light every time you use one, the simple fact is that Lini acquires lots of new cards... and cure adds those back to your deck as well. I'm finding that makes it harder to actually get your offensive spells in hand. The good news is that leaves plenty to discard for a d10, but I wish there was a little more control over this.
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In general, I agree. However, in practice I'm finding this to be a tad difficult. Even if you're managing to recharge inflict/holy light every time you use one, the simple fact is that Lini acquires lots of new cards... and cure adds those back to your deck as well. I'm finding that makes it harder to actually get your offensive spells in hand. The good news is that leaves plenty to discard for a d10, but I wish there was a little more control over this.Yup - Lini actually seems to be just about the most flexible character in the game. With most, there's one obvious best way to play the character. With Lini, you've got three main combat choices: offensive spells like Inflict, discard for 1d10 strength while keeping lots of Cure spells to get back the discards, or get a melee weapon. Personally, I'm a big fan of the blasting spells when playing her.
Yup - you do have to regularly fall back on boosting her strength. It's a decent plan B, but I still like using blasting spells as plan A. Between the two, and the ever-present d4 from having an animal in hand, she has pretty good combat power. I also like to give her the Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Yup - you do have to regularly fall back on boosting her strength. It's a decent plan B, but I still like using blasting spells as plan A. Between the two, and the ever-present d4 from having an animal in hand, she has pretty good combat power. I also like to give her the Amulet of Mighty Fists.In general, I agree. However, in practice I'm finding this to be a tad difficult. Even if you're managing to recharge inflict/holy light every time you use one, the simple fact is that Lini acquires lots of new cards... and cure adds those back to your deck as well. I'm finding that makes it harder to actually get your offensive spells in hand. The good news is that leaves plenty to discard for a d10, but I wish there was a little more control over this.Yup - Lini actually seems to be just about the most flexible character in the game. With most, there's one obvious best way to play the character. With Lini, you've got three main combat choices: offensive spells like Inflict, discard for 1d10 strength while keeping lots of Cure spells to get back the discards, or get a melee weapon. Personally, I'm a big fan of the blasting spells when playing her.
Yeah I do the same. She's quite competent with Holy Light, as well as Inflict. I've also been having her try to stay at the same location as Valeros to take advantage of his helping power. Even so, I fear that her combat prowess will not scale well with later encounters, but that will depend largely on the new types of allies/divine spells we'll see in the future. A look at the complete card lists suggest she won't be getting any new animal allies til Expansion 3, where she gets "cat". Expansion 4 looks more promising, with "Charmed Red Dragon" (not sure if it will be an animal though), "Bear", "Eagle" and "Lizard". I'm sure we'll see better healing spells at some point, but Lini won't ever be great for damage reduction by the looks of things. For now, she's fun to play... I guess we'll see what the future brings.
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Lini starts with 6 spells. Make two of them Inflict, and use it as your primary weapon. Discarding to wild shape and get 1d10 strength should be strictly a backup plan.
Actually, since you've got Kyra in your group, you can probably get away with only one Cure, rather than 2-3 if you were the only healer, so maybe try for three of Inflict. I'm still trying to figure out why Inflict isn't on the starting list for any character.
As you already figured out, keeping an animal ally in hand is key. NEVER discard your last animal companion. It adds 1d4 to every single check.
I think possibly the reason it's not in a starting list is because the Inflict spell is inspired by the Pathfinder spell: Inflict ____ Wounds spell line, which is negative energy/necromancy. It doesn't really seem to thematically fit any of these characters.
If PFRPG (and Gygaxian Death Adventure 3.5) set any precedent, dragons are different creature types from animals. I'm afraid Lini won't be benefiting from the coolest sounding ally in several sets.
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Yup - you do have to regularly fall back on boosting her strength. It's a decent plan B, but I still like using blasting spells as plan A. Between the two, and the ever-present d4 from having an animal in hand, she has pretty good combat power. I also like to give her the Amulet of Mighty Fists.In general, I agree. However, in practice I'm finding this to be a tad difficult. Even if you're managing to recharge inflict/holy light every time you use one, the simple fact is that Lini acquires lots of new cards... and cure adds those back to your deck as well. I'm finding that makes it harder to actually get your offensive spells in hand. The good news is that leaves plenty to discard for a d10, but I wish there was a little more control over this.Yup - Lini actually seems to be just about the most flexible character in the game. With most, there's one obvious best way to play the character. With Lini, you've got three main combat choices: offensive spells like Inflict, discard for 1d10 strength while keeping lots of Cure spells to get back the discards, or get a melee weapon. Personally, I'm a big fan of the blasting spells when playing her.
Capt, where did you get the information about Set 4? I can only find the information from the character sheets which go up to 3.
Yeah I do the same. She's quite competent with Holy Light, as well as Inflict. I've also been having her try to stay at the same location as Valeros to take advantage of his helping power. Even so, I fear that her combat prowess will not scale well with later encounters, but that will depend largely on the new types of allies/divine spells we'll see in the future. A look at the complete card lists suggest she won't be getting any new animal allies til Expansion 3, where she gets "cat". Expansion 4 looks more promising, with "Charmed Red Dragon" (not sure if it will be an animal though), "Bear", "Eagle" and "Lizard". I'm sure we'll see better healing spells at some point, but Lini won't ever be great for damage reduction by the looks of things. For now, she's...
Capt, where did you get the information about Set 4? I can only find the information from the character sheets which go up to 3.
Yes, as Fromper mentioned, the character sheets for the specializations (to be used after adventure 3) have complete card lists for up to adventure 6. You might have to look at a few different character sheets to get the full list, since some characters can't use certain types of cards. The list also is just the name of the cards, so it's just educated guessing for a lot of them.
As a side note, I was surprised to not see "Horse" listed as a future ally. Especially since in pathfinder rpg, one of your starting items can be a horse. This has at least one person in my group disappointed, as he (for some unknown reason) always wants a horse with him.
Yeah I concur. More characters would be great, but having them introduced in the middle of an adventure path makes a lot less sense to me. Since the game has enjoyed quite a bit of popularity, hopefully there will be plenty more sets to come!
Yeah I concur. More characters would be great, but having them introduced in the middle of an adventure path makes a lot less sense to me. Since the game has enjoyed quite a bit of popularity, hopefully there will be plenty more sets to come!
It seems many of us have played through all we have from the box at least twice just to try out new characters. I think we would do the same if there was a Character Add-On 2 released at any point through the game.
A Toad is almost the same as a 7th spell, and with bonuses for Lini. On the other hand, I don't think it's quite as crucial for Lini to have tons of allies so much as just hanging on to one and not having her hand wiped out. If she does, she can usually Cure an ally back into her deck and just cycle cards until she finds one. Spells are some of the most powerful cards there are, so more never goes amiss. There's also a good argument for weapons, unless there's a standing arrangement for Amiri or Valeros to give her one on turn one.
Yep - it just drives us batty when we overdo combat checks and consistently win them by a dozen. Still, couldn't resist the Wisom play here again (for that recharge).
Appreciate the thought share, tcliff.
I actually gave Lini a weapon with her first card feat. I was finding that, even though I was stocking 3-4 combat spells in her deck, the fact that she acquires so many boons during normal exploring dilutes her deck so much that getting a combat spell can be less likely. When she has a spell, she is great at combat... but without one she's not nearly as effective. As such, I gave her a crossbow to help offset those situations. This might be more related to my playstyle/skill (or lack thereof) than anything else though.