I've had players ask me from time to time about swinging on ropes to board ships as opposed to climbing a boarding line or swimming across and climbing the side of the boat. It's a pretty basic concept, but surprisingly Pathfinder has no rules whatsoever for it. I am trying to develop a way to do it that has some downsides so it doesn't completey over shadow other methods. Looking for feedback.
Step 1. Move to edge of ship. Throw grapple into rigging as a standard action. This should be AC 5 but I don't know how many range increments it should be to hit something in the rigging. Maybe 30 ft.? The Steadfast Grapple makes this more or less moot, but it may come up.
Step 2. DC 15 climb check to mount the rope and swing as a move action. Fail by <4 equals go no where, movement lost. Fail by >4, PC falls in the water. Use a die corresponding to the number of sqaures between the ships to determine where he lands. Should this be limited by character's movement speed? I think that seems artificial for what it's doing and defeats the purpose of the tactic of getting over faster so I say no. Making this a climb check instead of an acrobatics necessitates stowing weapons to use all hands and makes it interruptible by a readied action from enemies. If a character takes damage in his swing, DC 10 reflex save to keep from falling just like climbing rules. This also allows for a Rope of Climbing to be used for assistance here.
Step 2. As a second move action, make an acrobatics check to make sure you stick the landing. Failing means you still land on the ship but fall prone. What's a fair DC for this acrobatics check? Should this be part of the same move action as the climb check or a separate move action?
Step 3. Draw weapon as a move. Attack. If fallen, stand up as a move, draw weapon as a move, attack next turn.
I would think it would be pretty tough to do.
Throwing from their own deck:
They need to throw across and high enough to be able to swing across. Even if they hit the lower 30ft rigging there is still 40+ft of rope so when they swing they will hit the side of the other ship.So they would have to climb their own rigging and throw across taking a lot more time and probably making the throw harder. Then they could swing across. Here I would force a climb check to hold on, int check to know the angle to take to be even with the deck, and then either a acro check to land or ref to let go perfectly to land on someone. Maybe even matching reflex saves against the person they are landing on. I mean the bad guys should get a chance to see them coming.
Unless they throw to the rigging and sails that is protruding past the edge of the deck and then it would be very similar to a pendulum. So a rope swing DC 10 ( kids do it all the time ) with acrobatics to land stylishly at the other side or to pass through threatened space.
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*raise thread*
The Rogue archetype Pirate has Swinging Reposition.
The feat Whip Mastery has some rules also.
The item Grappling Arrow is a weapon fired mechanic.
The item Grappling Hook is a hand thrown mechanic.
For DCs, I see the following:
Climb 5 ... a knotted rope ...
Climb 15 ... an unknotted rope ...
These DCs are for climbing. For holding on, it would be lower.
I suggest fail by <5 = reflex save to catch yourself on something. Fail by more, and ker-splat. You are wet or land prone. Either way taking damage. The DC should not be hard, as this is iconic cinema. However... :-)
If you are hurt while swinging, that ups the DC 1:1.
If you only use one hand, so that you can have a weapon out, the DC is +5.
The swing is a full round action, but can be used with either bull rush, overrun, or charge with a slam attack. If you have Spring Attack, you can use it. Ditto Ride-by or Fly-by feat. Your character's speed is not relevant, as your "mount" is doing the moving.
/cevah
What do you mean by "that ups the DC 1:1"? If a character has taken 7 hit points of damage during a swing, are you suggesting that the DC for that swing should be 7 points higher? It seems like that penalty could only be applied to a swing that lasts multiple rounds.
Yep. 7 damage = DC +7.
Opportunity attacks, readied actions, and harmful barriers can all apply damage on the swing. Concealment could be even worse. If you think you are swinging through fog onto the deck, and instead hit the mast or forecastle instead, you splat with damage.
As mentioned in my post, the swing is a full round action.... However, if you get stuck/paralyzed/stunned and don't fall off, you might wind up swinging back and forth, once per round each way. Easy set up for attacks. For example, a tanglefoot bag hits you while swinging: you cannot release, and thus swing more. The bag helps you stay on (via easier DC), but keeps you in range of opponents longer. A wall of fire does damage as you penetrate. If here is one between the ships, then the swing is harder since you take damage along the way.
As it is cinematic, I would also allow cinematic counters to this with dramatic if not as damaging effects. For example throwing a dagger at the rope as it swings, and if it hits, the rope is parted and you go splat, but perhaps not as damaging. [By the same amount you fudged the result to have the effect happen.] Depends on how much drama you want to bring to the action.
/cevah
For those willing to adapt (use) 3.x material, the information the OP is looking for is found in:
"Power Fantasy: Action Movie Stunts in D&D" from Dragon #306 (includes full rules for swinging on ropes).
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Thanks, Cevah and Arnwyn. I've already had some people swinging between boats, but concrete rules would be helpful.
Eventually, with so many characters using this stunt, I may change the effects of the Buccaneer (Gunslinger version) Rope Swing ability. It should be something special, even if combat rope swinging is common among the party members. We'll see.
You realize that rope swinging from the masttops is likely to end you wrapped around one of your own ship's shrouds or sheets ? Nevermind cutting a rope attached to the side to swing over - which usually supports something , which is why it was tied down ?
Hollywood, Tarzan and Jack Sparrow, I blame you for these heroic shenanigans...
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Realistic ropes? Cinematic heresy!
Okay, then one of the heroes borrows Kroop's magic grappling hook, throws it across the gap to snare one of the enemy ship's yardarms, and swings away, Skywalker style. The rest have to clamber across normally, or wait their turn.
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You realize that rope swinging from the masttops is likely to end you wrapped around one of your own ship's shrouds or sheets ? Nevermind cutting a rope attached to the side to swing over - which usually supports something , which is why it was tied down ?
Hollywood, Tarzan and Jack Sparrow, I blame you for these heroic shenanigans...
They are talking about tossing a grappling hook over into the other ship's rigging and swinging across on that, not cutting an existing rope and trying to swing or somesuch...
Realistic ropes? Cinematic heresy!
+1
Okay, then one of the heroes borrows Kroop's magic grappling hook, throws it across the gap to snare one of the enemy ship's yardarms, and swings away, Skywalker style. The rest have to clamber across normally, or wait their turn.
Or, like my Ninja, jump. At +35 when I spend a point of Ki, I would just leap from one to the other, Matix style. :-)
/cevah
I was planning on the standard dc for throwing the hook, then a strength check-they need to make the dc for that as well, and how far they were trying to go alerts the dc. If they fail by getting a 10 when they needed a 15, they fall off a third of the way through the swing. Then a reflex check to let go at the right time, a fail launching them over the other side of the boat by letting go at the wrong time. Finally, acrobatics check to land on their feet. Doing so is a full round action, just can't decide if it ends with them being flat footed or not. I'm thinking if they make all 4 checks, then they deserve have their ac lol
I was planning on the standard dc for throwing the hook, then a strength check-they need to make the dc for that as well, and how far they were trying to go alerts the dc. If they fail by getting a 10 when they needed a 15, they fall off a third of the way through the swing. Then a reflex check to let go at the right time, a fail launching them over the other side of the boat by letting go at the wrong time. Finally, acrobatics check to land on their feet. Doing so is a full round action, just can't decide if it ends with them being flat footed or not. I'm thinking if they make all 4 checks, then they deserve have their ac lol
1) Throw hook DC=? Actually, it is an attack roll. Text is "Objects with ample places to catch the hook have an AC of 5." Ships do have this characteristic. Note failure means just wasting time. No real downside.
2) Strength check DC=? Should be a climb check. Should also be low, since hanging on is an easy task. As mentioned before, climbing a rope is harder and it is only a DC 15 Climb check. I would not use a base DC higher than 10 as a GM. I would modify for trying to hang on one handed so your weapon is out and in the other hand.3) Reflex check DC=? Since you can ready actions to trigger on some event, like crossing the far ship's railing, is this even needed?
4) Acrobatics check DC=? I would use the jumping rules. Just remember, the jump is from rope to ship, not ship to ship, so the DC is quite low. If you fail this check, you go prone.
For this last check, the following modifiers could apply:
+2 Lightly Obstructed (gravel, sand)
+5 Severely Obstructed (cavern, rubble)
+2 Slightly Slippery (wet)
+2 Slightly Unsteady (boat in rough water)
+5 Mildly Unsteady (boat in a storm)
The obstructed modifier is for ship's rigging and stuff.
The deck is not usually wet, but circumstances could change that.
The unsteady is directly meant for ships.
Since this is a combat action, I see no way this would make you flat footed. I can see it making you prone.
/cevah
I was on break at work, typing it up on my phone so I was just trying to get the idea out quickly.
1) I'd meant the attack roll. Just wasn't thinking really much about it.
2) I figure they would be doing it one-handed to have their weapon in their other hand, so I figure a DC 15 Climb check (the gm I currently play under has us make Strength checks for holding onto things) and again, if they were to roll too low, their strength fails on them at certain points to see if they end up on the deck or in the space between the boats.
3) The first time I'd say needed, as this is all about timing-hang on a second too long and you could very well swing straight off the other side of the boat. After that, not so much.
4) Havent had a chance to check the jumping rules, though I think that's what I was thinking of.
The reason I debated about having them land flat-footed is that using the regular rules for boarding, you'd be flatfooted. I figure this is to make sure they end up specifically not-flatfooted.
I wanted to make it something that has a chance of failure, at least the first time they try it. After that, it would likely be easier checks. Like what I plan to do on the rum ration-as their bodies get used to the alcohol, the amount of con damage that they take will go down over time.
2) I figure they would be doing it one-handed to have their weapon in their other hand, so I figure a DC 15 Climb check (the gm I currently play under has us make Strength checks for holding onto things) and again, if they were to roll too low, their strength fails on them at certain points to see if they end up on the deck or in the space between the boats.
To hang on, you need to hold up your own weight. Compared to the max load of a given strength, I would say a strength-10 character weighing 100# can hang on easily, so call that DC=10 or less. With a knotted rope you ascend with a DC 5, but with the aid of the knots. Yet in climbing, you use one hand then the other. This is why I say the DC is low, except for modifiers like damage taken and combat readiness while swinging. In a way, it is very much like riding a mount, save you use an arm to hang on not legs. Do you have a problem riding and attacking? DC is low, especially if the mount is trained. While a rope swing cannot be trained, it is even more predictable, so that evens out.
The reason I debated about having them land flat-footed is that using the regular rules for boarding, you'd be flatfooted. I figure this is to make sure they end up specifically not-flatfooted.
Boarding a ship does NOT make you flat footed. The Skulls & Shackles AP specifically overrides that for the first ship you board. Very little can make you flat footed. This should not.
I wanted to make it something that has a chance of failure, at least the first time they try it. After that, it would likely be easier checks. Like what I plan to do on the rum ration-as their bodies get used to the alcohol, the amount of con damage that they take will go down over time.
Tell them that they cannot take-10 until they succeed three times.
/cevah
Alright, fair enough. DC 10 makes sense when you add in stuff for being shot at and whatnot.
Boarding a ship, however, specifically states you ARE flat footed. Climbing over the side was stated to make you flat footed. Make the swing, be combat ready.
And agreed on that final point-3 times seems right.
Alright, fair enough. DC 10 makes sense when you add in stuff for being shot at and whatnot.
Boarding a ship, however, specifically states you ARE flat footed. Climbing over the side was stated to make you flat footed. Make the swing, be combat ready.
And agreed on that final point-3 times seems right.
Still : a silly ...ahem hollywoodes-que... concept and almost impossible to do regarding the reality of sailing ships
Never let reality get in the way of a cool idea in a fantasy role-playing game. The rule of cool should always prevail. When judging whether an action would work or not, I always use cinema "reality" rather than the real world because, let's face it, the real world is a real buzzkill sometimes.
Boarding a ship, however, specifically states you ARE flat footed. Climbing over the side was stated to make you flat footed. Make the swing, be combat ready.
Went and looked it up in the SRD.
Boarding: Once two ships are grappled, a crew can board the other ship. The pilot with the highest initiative can choose whether to board the opposing ship with her crew first or wait for the opposing crew to board her ship. Characters boarding an opposing ship are considered flat-footed for the first round of shipboard combat, due to the difficulty of climbing over the ships' rails and finding footing on the enemy deck. Characters using a corvus to board another ship are not considered flat-footed.
Swinging over on a rope, you are not climbing over difficult/treacherous terrain. While finding footing might apply, you are using the acrobatics check instead to simulate that. Being prone and having to stand while on board an enemy ship is painful enough. Any enemy rogues can likely get flanking easily so they don't need to get you flat-footed. I don't think you should be flat footed when doing this on a ship since you do not become flat footed doing this anywhere else.
If you really want it, however, you can use the Acrobatics rules: "While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any)." Once finished, i.e. landed, you are no longer using acrobatics, and thus no longer flat footed. To take advantage of this, the enemy needs either a readied action, or an attack of opportunity.
/cevah
Which is why I was using the acrobatics check to see if they land on their feet. They will not be flat footed when using the rope swing.
Oh wow. I just realized I think I was talking about something tougher than everyone else. I wasn't referring to simply swinging from one side to the other, I was talking about swinging to the far side of the ship. Like, to get behind the enemy. In case I hadn't made that clear.
Oh wow. I just realized I think I was talking about something tougher than everyone else. I wasn't referring to simply swinging from one side to the other, I was talking about swinging to the far side of the ship. Like, to get behind the enemy. In case I hadn't made that clear.
As mentioned before, the Rogue archetype Pirate has Swinging Reposition. Why not let your players take that particular trick as a feat? A standard feat gets a rogue talent, and this class feature replaces a rogue talent. GM fiat to say it is also available as a feat seems reasonable. If they take it, they got all the rules needed to use. Anything not covered would use the more difficult rules discussed above.
/cevah
Still not sure what swinging reposition has to do with this...
Never let reality get in the way of a cool idea in a fantasy role-playing game. The rule of cool should always prevail. When judging whether an action would work or not, I always use cinema "reality" rather than the real world because, let's face it, the real world is a real buzzkill sometimes.
What one guy finds "cool", another one finds silly. Utterly silly.
And personally, I prefer my campaigns to anchor themselves in reality (for the mundane part at least) and preserve the "fantastic" for magic and the supernatural. The real world works very well if you use is correctly, creatively and with some imagination. YMMV
Oh wow. I just realized I think I was talking about something tougher than everyone else. I wasn't referring to simply swinging from one side to the other, I was talking about swinging to the far side of the ship. Like, to get behind the enemy. In case I hadn't made that clear.
Pendulum mechanics would really prevent that . As would the opponent's ship.
Since it is utterly outside reality, I would ask for a sizable perception DC (to pick a rope that actually allows it. For starters, the rope has to be anchored on the opposite ship, somewhere around the mast tops, roughly 40' up and an Acrobatics check for the swing say DC 15( +2 target threatening the swing) and the landing part. (or two acrobatics checks, - one for swinging, one for landing safely.
Failure would result in either a twisted flight path (possibly depositing the character in the shark-filled drink, ahem ocean) or having him/her crash into some hard obstacle (like a mast, the windlass or the facing side of the ship ) and landing, upright and with a drawn weapon, on her/his feet.
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Still not sure what swinging reposition has to do with this...
At 2nd level, a pirate incorporates a ship’s masts, rigging, ropes, sails, and other such structures into her combat style. Provided she is wearing light armor or no armor, when fighting in an environment where such structures exist, the rogue incorporates them into her movement, and does not have to move in a straight line when making either a charge attack or bull rush combat maneuver. Once she completes her attack or maneuver, she can reposition herself. Immediately after making the charge or bull rush, she can move 5 feet as a free action, even if the charge ends her turn. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Normally, charging or bull rushing requires unobstructed and straight movement lines. Swinging Reposition allows you to go around obstacles that would stop charging and bull rushing. Not only that, you get a free 5-foot step after the attack, when normally the attack ends your turn. You are not required t end your turn in the square closest to where you started. You could even end up on the far side, as you don't have to move in a straight line to get there.
Instead of being difficult terrain, the structures facilitate easy movement. I would house rule that such structures would also eliminate any difficult terrain penalty they normally impose for regular movement, if you have the skill.
/cevah
I agree 100% with Cevah. Remember it's good, yes, but it's useless outside ships.
Imaginative players will reasonably expect it to work in woods/jungles (hey look, vines !) as well as many types of buildings/structure (bazaars, anything with lines stretched across the place for flags etc.. - like market fairs). So be careful
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I agree 100% with Cevah. Remember it's good, yes, but it's useless outside ships.Imaginative players will reasonably expect it to work in woods/jungles (hey look, vines !) as well as many types of buildings/structure (bazaars, anything with lines stretched across the place for flags etc.. - like market fairs). So be careful
there's next to no instance in game play where you can get "a ship’s masts, rigging, ropes, sails, and other such structures" outside a ship... you're splitting hair there methinks.
Jungles?? hell no!
It's awesome on ships, but that's it. For crying out loud you're losing that moronic trap sense for it so I'd tell imaginative players to reasonably expect to shut up!
I think if anyone should try that elsewhere, have them roll a percentile-high chance of the vine bit being secure enough to hold weight. I plan on doing that if anyone tries to cut a rope and sail upwards, there's a good chance diverging falls on them, or they get launched so high they clear the ship and splash on the other side. Or nothing happens. Or they go straight up, then suffer fall damage. Or succeed, doing exactly what they wanted.
I think if anyone should try that elsewhere, have them roll a percentile-high chance of the vine bit being secure enough to hold weight.
You do realize that is precisely one of the problems if you use "just any" rope hanging from above on a ship ?
Most ropes on a ship have a clear end, beginning and likely function....
I agree 100% with Cevah. Remember it's good, yes, but it's useless outside ships.Imaginative players will reasonably expect it to work in woods/jungles (hey look, vines !) as well as many types of buildings/structure (bazaars, anything with lines stretched across the place for flags etc.. - like market fairs). So be carefulthere's next to no instance in game play where you can get "a ship’s masts, rigging, ropes, sails, and other such structures" outside a ship... you're splitting hair there methinks.
So you have never adventured in a bazaar ? A tournament field with flags flying ? In a circus ? In a theatre ? Or on bridges ? Scaffolds on construction sides ? The bridges of Goblin Town ?
If you limit something permissible to the specific/exact terms only, and not to the meaning of the text, you do kill any imaginative play. Besides killing common sense.
"So Captain - I can swing from a rope on our ship, but I cannot swing from a chandelier ? But I can do so IF the chandelier is on a ship ?"
"No swinging on that chain, you are a pirate and this swings totally different..."
Sorry, your argument does not really seem to fly...
( First everyone wants to strike down realism, than everyone wants to do everything just by the book)
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Oh wow. I just realized I think I was talking about something tougher than everyone else. I wasn't referring to simply swinging from one side to the other, I was talking about swinging to the far side of the ship. Like, to get behind the enemy. In case I hadn't made that clear.As mentioned before, the Rogue archetype Pirate has Swinging Reposition. Why not let your players take that particular trick as a feat? A standard feat gets a rogue talent, and this class feature replaces a rogue talent. GM fiat to say it is also available as a feat seems reasonable. If they take it, they got all the rules needed to use. Anything not covered would use the more difficult rules discussed above.
/cevah
I disagree. If you start letting players take abilities from classes as feats, where does it end? I'm a fighter with backstab. I'm a Barbarian that can channel energy. Or even more simply, why would a rogue give up trapfinding for it when he could just take it asa feat?
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Palious is right... you want to be a real pirate and swing around? take rogue! :)
(btw, I love how they did the Corsair archetype for fighters - you get to wear heavy armor at sea without swim penalty etc. if I remember correctly, which doesn't steal the rogue pirate archetype's thunder and yet provides a real advantage to all fighters at sea... same thing with Sea Reaver for barbarians and Sea Singer for bards...)
Q: does swinging rep allow for simple movement through sails? I.e move or double moves?
RAW: No. But....
Double move = Charge - Attack.
Move = Bull Rush - Attack.
As a GM I would allow it.
/cevah
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thank you.. that's my take as well.. I want to make a move action via swinging reposition and shoot my peashooter ultimately... i may have to settle with the more stupid version of always kicking someone in the face at the end of a rope swing though... sigh
or in the absence of said face, kick an object... :P
I just picked up a copy of Fire As She Bears hoping to find mechanics for pirate rope swinging. I should have searched the forums first.