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TheNine: with modern carrying techniques (masterwork backpack) qnd the first outfit being "free", 276 pounds total is at the very edge of a heavy load for a str 16 character. So it seems quite a good fit, unless you often did headstands in that.
18 pound automatic weapon, 12 pounds of ammo, oh yeah there was that 20 pound ballistic jacket, the 4 pound kevlar helmet, 3 frags (about a pound a peice) SHoudl i keep going? and no, no handstands but spriting behind the nearest cover (or concealment if you were unlucky enough) to remove the big pack did happen often.
None of that sounds 'free' to me. Then again i just had to carry it. My point was, I love rpgs, I even like Pathfinder a whole lot. But i dont compare them to real life, thats just dumb. It wont work. Its a fantasy game for a reason. I hate seeing the arguments or trying to mix realism in fantasy.I still think martials damage shoudl scale with their levels. That is one of the few things i thought worked well in 4e. I dont see a fighters longsword attack being say 2d8 at level six, or 3d8 at level 12 etc... all that game breaking especially when there are fireballs and lighting bolts and things like that exploding about the place. You want to add more realism in the game, realize then that 3 feet of steel embed into your chest will kill you, no matter what neat level you are. Why are casters the only ones who scale?
(and please dont tell me my multiple attacks is the same thing, usually due to either dice or just math my 4th attack never connects and sometimes neither does my 3rd attack.)
My opinion of course. Thanks for the imput and keep it classy! You guys are great!
TheNine: with modern carrying techniques (masterwork backpack) qnd the first outfit being "free", 276 pounds total is at the very edge of a heavy load for a str 16 character. So it seems quite a good fit, unless you often did headstands in that.18 automatic weapon, 12 pounds of ammo, oh yeah there was that 20 ballistic jacket, the 4 pound kevlar helmet, 3 frags (about a pound a peice) SHoudl i keep going? and no, no handstands but spriting behind the nearest cover (or concealment if you were unlucky enough) to remove the big pack did happen often.
I always thought the carrying capacity system was off. It is highly unlikely all the folks in the military have a 16 strength though. Especially considering a 10 is the average human. Most folks are likely to have NPC Non-heroic stats, so a 15 strength is about the best they could hope for.
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my edit was ninja'd! *lawls* yeah the carrying thing is always kinda messed up to me too. Especially when as strange as it sounds, you just get used to it. I do have some monsterous sized calfs and thighs now, though if we split up the str score i think i would be an upper body 12 str, lower body 18 str.
But like i was trying to say, i just dont like the comparison of real life to roleplaying games. it doesnt tend to work.
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I'm actually stunned that someone believes that having bad balance is "Part of the Genre"
I see why paizo can get away with it so easily, they have people who support bad balance even though good balance wouldn't effect them
I'm not surprised really. I figured it out when wotc released the book of nine swords. The usual fighters can't have nice things because it's always been that way. If you change that in anyway it's anima/wuxia and go play something else style of responses were the same then as it is now. The only new thing added to the argument is 4E.
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Frankly Raith could at least get it right. Fighters having nice things isn't too anime, it's Too Celtic Mythology.
Y'know that the greatest hero in Celtic myth could leap for miles, had a rainbow laser sword that he carved up mountains with, was related by blood to dogs (no, really - he helped spawn Irish Wolfhounds), transformed into a demon, was a sexy bishounen, and got so angry that he had to be drowned and/or group hugged by dozens of naked women just to get him to stop killing people?
Also his spear was an opium addict.
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I always thought the carrying capacity system was off. It is highly unlikely all the folks in the military have a 16 strength though. Especially considering a 10 is the average human. Most folks are likely to have NPC Non-heroic stats, so a 15 strength is about the best they could hope for.TheNine: with modern carrying techniques (masterwork backpack) qnd the first outfit being "free", 276 pounds total is at the very edge of a heavy load for a str 16 character. So it seems quite a good fit, unless you often did headstands in that.18 automatic weapon, 12 pounds of ammo, oh yeah there was that 20 ballistic jacket, the 4 pound kevlar helmet, 3 frags (about a pound a peice) SHoudl i keep going? and no, no handstands but spriting behind the nearest cover (or concealment if you were unlucky enough) to remove the big pack did happen often.
If you use the Elite Array of 15 14 13 12 10 8, stuff that 15 into Str, and give a +2 stat bonus, the average soldier should be sitting around a 16-17 Str if they want it. Probably has endurance as a bonus feat (march march march).
And yeah, modern soldiers wouldn't have anywhere NEAR the problems that fantasy soldiers do. Modern weapons have ridiculously high damage output AND go against Touch AC. Rampaging hill giant in chain mail and shield, 26 AC? No problem, it's a 7 to us, we can't miss! Half a dozen 3 shot bursting gunners with Deadly Aim for 3-18 +4 with Rapid fire for 2 at/rd, and 180 HP of damage later we've ourselves a dead rampaging hill giant. Or Dragon. Or whatever. Yeah, DR and Prot/Missiles could affect that some. The frag grenades, satchel charges, mines, grenade launchers and portable missiles really don't care.
And that's if they aren't calling in mortar fire, an artillery barrage, or air support dropping acres of screaming death. I'd dearly love to see what Pathfinder DR would make of the bullets from a modern tank-busting Gatling gun on a Warthog.
But like I said, you don't need to be high level to do that sort of stuff. You need to be proficient with and have access to modern weapons, and good communications.
As a side note, we place a much higher emphasis on having smart, skilled warriors then they did back in the old days. The modern soldier is expected to be useful both in and out of combat to some degree. That wasn't necessarily the dase in the old days. Most soldiers were drawn from laborers or farmers, and when not fighting, that's literally all they were good for. Educated soldiers became officers.
Career fighters started training as children to be knights and the like. Very different from today. The amount of combat training we can give modern soldiers has been compacted down to an amazing degree. Sharing martial techniques and training methods has really advanced the whole world of the military.
==Aelryinth
I would also like to point out that one of the staples of fantasy is that casters kill armies of low level mooks.
Powerful fighters then kill the casters.
==Aelryinth
I would also like to point out that one of the staples of fantasy is that casters kill armies of low level mooks.
Powerful fighters then kill the casters.
==Aelryinth
My favorite part of Lord of the Rings was when Gandalf was killed by a lone orc.
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Frankly Raith could at least get it right. Fighters having nice things isn't too anime, it's Too Celtic Mythology.
Y'know that the greatest hero in Celtic myth could leap for miles, had a rainbow laser sword that he carved up mountains with, was related by blood to dogs (no, really - he helped spawn Irish Wolfhounds), transformed into a demon, was a sexy bishounen, and got so angry that he had to be drowned and/or group hugged by dozens of naked women just to get him to stop killing people?
Also his spear was an opium addict.
That is the single greatest description of any mythical figure I've ever read. Cracked.com writers couldn't have written a better summary.
That is the single greatest description of any mythical figure I've ever read. Cracked.com writers couldn't have written a better summary.
I believe you've forgotten Al Gore, Creator of The Internet.
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I believe you've forgotten Al Gore, Creator of The Internet.
That is the single greatest description of any mythical figure I've ever read. Cracked.com writers couldn't have written a better summary.
Al Gore, mythic interwebz forger and nemesis of man-bear-pig!
In all seriousness, though, the man misspoke on a couple things during the campaign, but he WAS pretty integral to getting the modern internet up and running. Credit where it's due and all that.
I believe you've forgotten Al Gore, Creator of The Internet.
That is the single greatest description of any mythical figure I've ever read. Cracked.com writers couldn't have written a better summary.Al Gore, mythic interwebz forger and nemesis of man-bear-pig!
In all seriousness, though, the man misspoke on a couple things during the campaign, but he WAS pretty integral to getting the modern internet up and running. Credit where it's due and all that.
No worries, and no disrespect intended :) There's the tier-5 mythical Al Gore the press invented, then there's the guy who did a lot of the political groundwork and pushed the initiatives through ;)
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How about a little role-respect and niche protection?
Let's not.
TheNine: with modern carrying techniques (masterwork backpack) qnd the first outfit being "free", 276 pounds total is at the very edge of a heavy load for a str 16 character. So it seems quite a good fit, unless you often did headstands in that.18 pound automatic weapon, 12 pounds of ammo, oh yeah there was that 20 pound ballistic jacket, the 4 pound kevlar helmet, 3 frags (about a pound a peice) SHoudl i keep going? and no, no handstands but spriting behind the nearest cover (or concealment if you were unlucky enough) to remove the big pack did happen often.
None of that sounds 'free' to me. Then again i just had to carry it. My point was, I love rpgs, I even like Pathfinder a whole lot. But i dont compare them to real life, thats just dumb. It wont work. Its a fantasy game for a reason. I hate seeing the arguments or trying to mix realism in fantasy.
I... don't really know what the point of that was? I did not despute your 276 lbs claim, my point was that considering the first outfit do not count against encumbrance, you're likely looking at somewhere around 265 lbs, and a strength 16 character with a masterwork backpack has a max load of 260 lbs. You being a little bit over is easily explained as the system requiring some simplification. So it seems the system actually is fairly close to real life in this regard, if we assume that you had a strength of around 16 at the time.
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First we'll address the word Fantasy. This is coming from a former Marine, current personal trainer. Your strength can change, your dexterity can change. I've even watched intelligence, wisdom and charisma change. These have happened in FAR less time than "aging" or "gaining 4 levels." And I can one shot ANYONE in the world with a mundane item. Real life does not apply to fantasy, fantasy does not apply to real life.
Tangent:
Instead of "cure: 1 save" or "cure: remove curse, it would be "cure: work out"
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Or that this game is a very focused genre game that was never intended to cater to all audiences in all genres.
Raith, you seem like an ok guy. As far as I can tell, you keep your tone civil and you try to stay on point. That said, I could not disagree more with most of your opinions. Look, maybe at some point D&D was intended to represent a very limited area of the fantasy genre at large. Maybe initially it was purely supposed to let you play a game that was located somewhere in the high fantasy/sword and sorcery sub-genres. Well, you have to face the fact: that has simply and unarguably changed. It started changing as early as 1st edition's Oriental Adventures, if not sooner.
IF the designers only want us to be able to simulate that very limited area of fantasy literature, as you claim, then they are honestly being extremely unethical about the way they advertise and about the material they choose to print. The list of things that exist in this game that do not fit your idea of what the game should be is HUGE. You say there's nothing in this game that lets you simulate wuxia? How on earth can you make a claim like this? How do you explain quivering palm, Cloud Step and countless other game elements? That's not to mention Gunslingers and other steampunk elements, and it's not to mention...well, for God's sake, the entire design of The Inner Sea World Guide is absolutely confounding, if the things you say are to be believed. If they really want the game to be just one thing, they need to say so and stop printing all this stuff from every other place. They need to divide the game up into different games that simulate different genres. I don't know, something. But if the designers agree with your opinions, they simply cannot go on the way have been going.
Listen, I'm trying to be straight with you. It is my belief that you simply cannot hang onto these ideas you have about the game. When you post them here, other people might be tempted to agree with them because it appeals to their emotional sense of nostalgia and comfort, and that is an honest to god detriment to progress.
I fully respect the kind of game you want to play. I respect and support your right to play it, and not to have to deal with Gunslingers and Chinese swordsmen and trippy mythical Celtic demigods, and all the other crap that legitimately annoys you. But it's like I've been saying: the only way you're going to get that purist high fantasy game that you want, at this point, is through exclusion. You've got to leave stuff out. Lots of stuff. I think you need to be given guidance and support from above about how to do that, so you don't have to fight with other players over it constantly.
Also, just as I respect your right to have the kind of game you want, I think you need to start respecting the kind of game other people want to have, whether it's wuxia or anime or steampunk or whatever else it may be that you don't personally like. Please think about it, and stop denigrating or dismissing these things. Times have changed. It's all part of the game now and we have to stop naysaying that and figure out the best way to proceed, period.
AWESOME STUFF
I...I think I love you.
Everyone CAN attempt a trip, improved trip just makes that easier. . .Possible. Remember, damage you take from provoking that AoO is also a penalty applied to your CMB. So eating 15 damage trying to make a trip makes it kinda impossible yeah?This.
The the basic combat maneuver rules are absurd. It is much easier to trip or bull rush someone than it is to properly use a sword. The idea that someone who has proficiency in the sword never learned how to kick an enemy's legs out from under them without getting stabbed for trying is absurd.
So if you want to trip a lot take the feat; or carry a whip or halberd with you?
This is an interesting point. The math works differently in Pathfinder but how would you want this to play out? Free vital strike feat at BAB 6? A bonus of 1/2 or even full BAB in damage? I want to explore this some.
the problem with X amount of BAB to damage is that unless it is a class ability only reserved to martials, here isn't going to be a large difference between them and 3/4 BAB classes in terms of bonus damage. At least not enough of one to really care.
As for vital strike: Unless there is a change in the rules allowing me to use it at the end of a charge, the feat is garbage. If I'm standing next to someone I'm going to full attack. If I'm 20+(heavy armor) feet away from me, I'm going to charge and use power attack. Vital strike is only useful if you are between 10 and 20 ft. away, 15 and 20ft if you have a reach weapon.
I'd like to re-ask the original question posed by this thread. I'm working on some house rules where players can take a feat where they can get into a stance as a standard action and perform special abilities by losing the stance as a cost.
I want to know what kind of abilities martials (classes with access to bonus feats) should be able to have that they normally don't.
I'd like to re-ask the original question posed by this thread. I'm working on some house rules where players can take a feat where they can get into a stance as a standard action and perform special abilities by losing the stance as a cost.
I want to know what kind of abilities martials (classes with access to bonus feats) should be able to have that they normally don't.
As far as homebrew goes that's the best I've come up with.
As far as homebrew goes that's the best I've come up with.
I just took a glance at it and it looks great, I just might use it in my own games. Thank you for taking your own time to come up with these cool little abilties. :)
So if you want to trip a lot take the feat; or carry a whip or halberd with you?Everyone CAN attempt a trip, improved trip just makes that easier. . .Possible. Remember, damage you take from provoking that AoO is also a penalty applied to your CMB. So eating 15 damage trying to make a trip makes it kinda impossible yeah?This.
The the basic combat maneuver rules are absurd. It is much easier to trip or bull rush someone than it is to properly use a sword. The idea that someone who has proficiency in the sword never learned how to kick an enemy's legs out from under them without getting stabbed for trying is absurd.
Yes, as things currently stand, those things are the way to do it.
Now substitute Trip for Bull Rush. What special weapon should I carry? How about for Dirty Trick?
My point is that none of the combat maneuvers should require entry feats just to allow you to attempt them without getting stabbed.
Martial characters know how to use just about every weapon ever made. You think during all that training, they never learned the right way to shove somebody?
Combat Maneuver feats should make you particularly good at a certain maneuver, instead of just "not terrible".
Combat maneuver feats should scale with your level the whole way. You take one feat, you're the Trip guy until the end of time.
If a wizard takes Fireball, they don't have to sink more spells into fireball to make fireball continue to be effective as they level up. It happens automatically. Same with power attack. It just scales.
Why the hell are feat chains necessary to get better at the same trick?
My favorite part of Lord of the Rings was when Gandalf was killed by a lone orc.I would also like to point out that one of the staples of fantasy is that casters kill armies of low level mooks.
Powerful fighters then kill the casters.
==Aelryinth
Wait, I missed something. They had powerful orc fighters in LoTR? Where? They didn't even have powerful ELVEN fighters, and elves were gods there. The closest you see is Legolas, who has to take special care to kill one undersized cave troll.
I think all the powerful elven fighters left, like, a thousand years before LoTR.
==Aelryinth
The closest you see is Legolas, who has to take special care to kill one undersized cave troll.
Not that I don't agree with you, but I've seen several times people refer to "undersized cave troll", and I don't understand it really? Now, I haven't read the books since I was a kid, but the cave trolls of LotR seems to be Large creatures, including the one in Moria. But pathfinder cave trolls are medium-sized, superfast thingies, not really matching the LotR ones at all. If anything, I'd say the LotR cave trolls seem to match the stats of cave giants or potentially ogres, depending on how dangerous you want to portray them as.
As to the whole teleport needing the astral plane thing, that's something D&D cosmology has. Applying a 9th level character to the world of a story and saying that their abilities do not work, because a default assumption of D&D in place kind of misses the point of comparing them. Also, as Justin Sane points out it is entirely possible that Middle Earth has an Astral Plane.
Also, as Ilja says Cave Giant or Ogre works fine for a LotR Cave Troll. Assuming it is a Cave Giant it's a CR 6 which makes an appropriate encounter for a party of 6th level characters.
Atarlost, I think you are missing the point. The Lord of the Ring *is* a low level story. At no point do they actually fight Sauron, just his minions, none of whom are high CR threats. As to Conjuration, again your missing the point. Sure Teleport is part of the reason that Lord of the Rings is ill-suited to 9th level people, but so is Raise Dead, and Overland Flight. The challenges Lord of the Rings confronts its characters with are low level challenges.
I'm actually stunned that someone believes that having bad balance is "Part of the Genre"
In a lot of fiction the big endboss villain is a wizard so some interpert that as "Wizard>Warriors of course!" but... if anything that's a function of level.
Like in Conan. Conan gets his ass stomped by higher level wizards, they just point at him and he falls over so he needs to seek out magical artifacts to beat them. But he's also killed his share of wizards that are about his level where it's down to an initiative roll and Conan hurls his sword faster than they can hurl a scorpion at him.
So if you want to trip a lot take the feat; or carry a whip or halberd with you?
Or, they could fix the combat maneuvers and feats systems like they should have 10 years ago. Wen CHAMPIONS has a simpler and more effective grappling system, it's a sign that things are really screwed up.
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I'm actually stunned that someone believes that having bad balance is "Part of the Genre"In a lot of fiction the big endboss villain is a wizard so some interpert that as "Wizard>Warriors of course!"
The irony being that in about 95% of those stories, the hero who eventually overcomes that wizard is.....a warrior.
The biggest crime in Pathfinder's martial-caster imbalance is that the setting does not have a multitude of things yet more powerful than Wizards.
What a small fantasy stories we must tell without invoking wonder and awe!
The key problem is not that casters are above martials, but that there is not enough room above casters for significant NPCs.
"Wizard" should have been an entry in the Monster Manual.
Yes. No great fantasy literature has heroes who cackle and teleport away to plague the villains another day. No famous fantasy tales describe heroes using mind-control enchantments to save the kingdom. And name a story in which the hero has a crystal ball with which he can spy upon the villains and laugh as he finalizes his plans.
Regardless of valid tangential arguments LoTR is by no stretch of the imagination more than an E6 campaign.
The only one potentially playing a high level campaign is Gandalf, who is always worried about far greater powers than the foes the rest of the party is suppose to face. And he did at the cost of his own life kill a CR 20 encounter. For the most part though, Gandalf remains contained, perhaps not to draw the attention of greater powers during a stealth mission.
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Regardless of valid tangential arguments LoTR is by no stretch of the imagination more than an E6 campaign.
The only one potentially playing a high level campaign is Gandalf, who is always worried about far greater powers than the foes the rest of the party is suppose to face. And he did at the cost of his own life kill a CR 20 encounter. For the most part though, Gandalf remains contained, perhaps not to draw the attention of greater powers during a stealth mission.
Gandalf Wasn't Even a PC, he was a DMPC whom really didn't do a thing in any combat the fellowship could reasonably win. he was there to solo a Balor, he was there to help a few mass combats, but most of the time, he was the voice of the DM, the divine avatar whom gave advice to the group, he was the DM's mouthpiece and nothing more.
the only thing wrong with Gandalf as a DMPC. was there were special encounters to show off his power, and that he gave too accurate of advice and literally coerced people through his words, and the fact he used his reputation to get others to follow his coercions.
he was a Planetar in a 4th-6th level party.