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Jason Bulmahn gave the reason for the recent Crane Wing errata:
Part of our process of updating a book involves talking to various departments to see if there is anything that is causing them problems or needs a second look. In this particular case, Crane Wing was the #1 problem child on the list from the PFS folks. Without much work you could build a character with an incredibly high AC that could still make attacks, and if a foe would happen to get lucky and score a hit, deflect it. This build, which was not really all that difficult to setup, was all made possible by Crane Wing.
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Lets not drag the martial vs caster canard into this. Start another thread...
So the problem with Crane Wing being a High AC exploit that comes online at level 5, and also stacked with a level 7 ability. What other high AC exploits can be achieved in Pathfinder at level 5, level 7?
Out of the box thinking is desired, such as a way to entirely avoid melee by level 5 through means other than AC.
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I think high AC is a good thing, and it was not an exploit. An exploit would be something like RAW allowing ___, but RAI not intending for it to work that way.
Jason also knows we all play the game differently as shown by all the debates here, and nerfing/altering the game into "one true way", will likely hurt Paizo more than it will help them.
I hadn't been on in a few weeks... and I come to find Paizo's nerfed one of my favorite feat chains in the game. Sad day >.>
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Jason Bulmahn gave the reason for the recent Crane Wing errata:
Part of our process of updating a book involves talking to various departments to see if there is anything that is causing them problems or needs a second look. In this particular case, Crane Wing was the #1 problem child on the list from the PFS folks. Without much work you could build a character with an incredibly high AC that could still make attacks, and if a foe would happen to get lucky and score a hit, deflect it. This build, which was not really all that difficult to setup, was all made possible by Crane Wing.
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Lets not drag the martial vs caster canard into this. Start another thread...So the problem with Crane Wing being a High AC exploit that comes online at level 5, and also stacked with a level 7 ability. What other high AC exploits can be achieved in Pathfinder at level 5, level 7?
Out of the box thinking is desired, such as a way to entirely avoid melee by level 5 through means other than AC.
Way to bury the lede.
(emphasis fixed above)
I don't really have a dog in the Crane Wing fight, but some of these arguments are just terrible.
Is this seriously a real thread? Like really? A character can't just have a high AC without needing to punish them? This just reeks of toadying.
It is not. It is sarcastic vitriol based on a misreading of one of the designer's comments.
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Is this seriously a real thread? Like really? A character can't just have a high AC without needing to punish them? This just reeks of toadying.
It's not, actually. It's ridicule. OP is attempting to use satire to draw attention to an issue.
The methods are a little crude and mean spirited, but the later point about mirror image is actually very relevant, so I suppose the thread served a purpose.
I think there are better ways to make a point though. OP just didn't make it funny enough to be good satire.
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Definitely Mirror Image. Without any feat investment at all, you can have a defence far more potent than Crane Wing.
Yeah, Mirror Image alone makes the justifications for the Crane Wing nerf seem pretty bad. Combine that with the many other defensive spells which allow you to circumvent melee attacks entirely and it becomes quite ludicrous.
Jason saying that this argument is not about the martial/caster disparity also strikes me as trying to strangle a valid argument in its crib, since it definitely is part of a trend where casters very seldomly get their vital options nerfed, while it seems to happen very often to martials... especially the ones which are not the cookie-cutter two-handed weapon or archer builds. I've always defended Paizo when it came to the "caster edition" accusation you sometimes hear on other boards, but compared to the start of this edition of the game, it obviously has become ever more so.
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Pretty sure it's sarcasm.
I suggest fixing the balance on tower shields. I mean, +4 AC with only a -2 attack penalty is just nuts. Maybe the +4 should only apply to a single attack from a single opponent? That would put it in line with Crane Wing. Much more balanced.
Then there's armor. Now, I really don't get why normal armor is better than the Mage Armor spell. I mean, it's ]b]MAGIC[/b] armor. So, I think we should revise things to that all light armor is +1 AC, Medium is +2, and heavy is +3. That way Mage Armor's +4 is better, as it should be.
Full plates at second level? Man, that's a +9 to AC just there!
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Yeah, Mirror Image alone makes the justifications for the Crane Wing nerf seem pretty bad. Combine that with the many other defensive spells which allow you to circumvent melee attacks entirely and it becomes quite ludicrous.
But if the wizard loses his spell components or spellbook he can't use it either! Spells are also of limited use, for example one casting of Mirror image will last for 5 MINUTES while Crane Wing is on 24 HOURS a day. And if you're under an antimagic field you can still Crane Wing while Mirror Image is useless.
I believe that's the balancing point Pathfinder's designers are looking at. I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder's Adventure Paths though, do they provide enough encounters per day and anti-magic fields to show the flexibility Crane Wing has over mirror image?
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I fear not although on the component/book issue I feel compelled to point out that sorcerers have existed for the last 14 years and PF gives them Eschew Materials for free.
A level 5 sorcerer with CHA 20 can cast Mirror image 3 times per long rest, that's the potential to negate only 3-12 attacks, with each casting lasting only 5 minutes. Crane's Wing is usable every round (6 seconds), that's a maximum potential of negating 14,400 melee attacks for 24 hours a day!
This just reeks of toadying.
Given OgreBattle's avatar, this thread can't help the toad smell, regardless of content. :)
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A level 5 sorcerer with CHA 20 can cast Mirror image 3 times per long rest, that's the potential to negate only 3-12 attacks, with each casting lasting only 5 minutes. Crane's Wing is usable every round (6 seconds), that's a maximum potential of negating 14,400 melee attacks for 24 hours a day!
Please tell me you understand what a ridiculous argument this is?
For example, by this logic, Wizards are far from the best class in the game, and suddenly Fighters become the kings/queens of Pathfinder, because they can do their thing all day and Wizards are limited to spell slots.
Please tell me you understand the concept of humour.
*shrug* We're on the internet, and I've seen people use that logic in serious discussions.
I can only hope that it was tongue-in-cheek. lol
But if the wizard loses his spell components or spellbook he can't use it either!
Yes, and if you dip the Crane Style user in marinade and throw him into a corral of wild pigs, he'll probably get mauled. Got any other ludicrously unlikely scenarios?
Spells are also of limited use, for example one casting of Mirror image will last for 5 MINUTES while Crane Wing is on 24 HOURS a day.
Pathfinder is heavily geared towards the 15 minute adventuring day, not 24 hour non-stop adventuring.
And if you're under an antimagic field you can still Crane Wing while Mirror Image is useless.
Yeah, wow. At the level anti-magic fields from opponents are commonly a thing (which is "never" in AP's, btw), casters can do things like fly for hours, which negates the vast majority of anti-magic field wielders, since they cannot under the effects of the spell.
I believe that's the balancing point Pathfinder's designers are looking at. I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder's Adventure Paths though, do they provide enough encounters per day and anti-magic fields to show the flexibility Crane Wing has over mirror image?
Nope.
Please tell me you understand the concept of humour.*shrug* We're on the internet, and I've seen people use that logic in serious discussions.
Same here, so it's difficult to distinguish sometimes if it was meant humorously or seriously. And I haven't been following OgreBattle's posts enough to know his general posting style.
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I fear not although on the component/book issue I feel compelled to point out that sorcerers have existed for the last 14 years and PF gives them Eschew Materials for free.
A level 5 sorcerer with CHA 20 can cast Mirror image 3 times per long rest, that's the potential to negate only 3-12 attacks, with each casting lasting only 5 minutes. Crane's Wing is usable every round (6 seconds), that's a maximum potential of negating 14,400 melee attacks for 24 hours a day!
Holy cow you're right. Well that does it, we need to nerf crane wing and every other defensive feat even further. I mean look at those numbers. Since it's a martial toy I say you can only allow crane wing a number of times per day = to 1/2 your character level.
Finally, to really balance things, we should probably double or even triple the amount of times that a caster can cast mirror image. It should also be able to negate closer to 50-100 attacks, and the duration should be day/level that way the caster is free to use those spell slots elsewhere.
Thank you so much Ogrebattle, and here we all thought martial's didn't get nice things compared to casters. You sure showed us all how unbalanced those martials are. Let us know if they're any other imbalances.
Oh wait! I got one. Casters have a limited number of times per day that they can cast non-0 level spells. Martial's can attack up to 14,400 times per day at full strength. This is definitely overpowered and they need a major nerf.
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It may have been begun in satire, but I actually would like to determine what other potential exploits could/should be shut down that use a high AC to hammer the last nail in a PC's box of invulnerability.
Mirror image is sweet of course, but even 5 times per day (not 3 for L.5 sorc) is only 10-25 images, and you can still be hit by random chance, plus images destroyed by near misses (which happen *much* more frequently (vs. hits) against a very high AC). Most importantly, it burns up an action to cast or wand (no potions).
So what else works - anything non-spell based? Remember, this is for exploits in conjunction with a high AC, not things that give you a high AC. As people repeatedly point out, it's fairly simple (if boring) to make most things require a 20 to hit you.
Bonus points for:
Example: Divine Interference feat - forces reroll from an enemy hitting an ally (and you do count as your own ally most of the time). CL 10 required (mid-level), plus uses up a spell (as an immediate action). Limited by spells, and 1/creature/day, so that meets about 4.5 of the 7 criteria - pretty good.
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(Serious Answer) Entry Snake Style feat is great for anyone to defend against Melee or Ranged Touch Attacks. It uses an Immediate Action, but you can bet that a Paladin in Heavy Armor has a much higher Sense Motive check than their touch AC. Since you know when you are being targeted by a touch spell it is very easy to not waste it.
"I don't get my candy anymore?! Well why don't we just get rid of everybody's candy?! That'll teach 'em...and be hilarious, too!
"...or would it just sound whiny?
"Naaaaah!"
(Serious Answer) Entry Snake Style feat is great for anyone to defend against Melee or Ranged Touch Attacks. It uses an Immediate Action, but you can bet that a Paladin in Heavy Armor has a much higher Sense Motive check than their touch AC. Since you know when you are being targeted by a touch spell it is very easy to not waste it.
Nice - buffers the touch AC in addition to the regular AC.
No spell or standard, no gold, low-level prereqs. Limited 1/round and Nat 20 beats it -- 5 out of 7, but perhaps a bit more limited in scope. High resources potentially to really max out the sense motive score.
Shields, man. You don't even need feats to use a shield. It should take a two feat chain to use a buckler, four for light shields, 6 for heavy and 9 for ower shields. Did you know tower shields can give you total cover? OMGWTFBBQ broken!!1!!!!1!!!
"I don't get my candy anymore?! Well why don't we just get rid of everybody's candy?! That'll teach 'em...and be hilarious, too!
"...or would it just sound whiny?
"Naaaaah!"
You're snarking, but that's exactly the kind of core design conceit that made 4th Edition D&D as vibrant, long-lasting, and well-loved edition as it was.
Is.
Is is what I meant.
I'm out of order? This entire thread is out of order! Bailiff!
What the hell?
*incoherent raging* &*^(*()*%^&^$&@#%$&^$%&%)^#$^&&^(*^%^*$$^#@!#!% $##$&*^&%$%@
Heaven forbid that players actually find a way to defend themselves other than engaging in a pointless AC race.
Fixed that for you.
Silly guys. Martials can't have nice things.
I dunno the raging seems pretty coherent to me.
Nerf shields!
Definitely Mirror Image. Without any feat investment at all, you can have a defence far more potent than Crane Wing.Heaven forbid that spellcasters actually find a way to defend themselves other than engaging in a pointless AC race.
Mirror Image while awesome at low levels, at the upper tier becomes something that at best gives you at most, one or two round breathing space, as a combatant with decent iteratives or multiple attacks is going to through your images like tissue paper. It's main benefit is to make combatants like the Arcane Duellist viable.
By "one or two rounds" you mean "an entire combat" because at high levels that's how long combats last.
Heck, the FINAL, epic boss fight in RotRL took our party like...7 rounds? And it was TOUGH.
By "one or two rounds" you mean "an entire combat" because at high levels that's how long combats last.Heck, the FINAL, epic boss fight in RotRL took our party like...7 rounds? And it was TOUGH.
Is there any data on the average length of a combat encounter in a PFS game?
I wish PFS required more input by DMs and players. PFS tends to be hyper optimized characters because the DM has no say in what's allowed.
