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a proposal for a very modest bump in fighter's skill background.
:
A 1st level fighter may choose 2-4 additional skills to be class skills, to represent their varied training both in and out of formal military institutions. He may choose only 2 skills if any of those chosen are contained on the list below. Otherwise, he may choose 3 skills. If he chooses only Knowledge skills, he may instead select a total of 4 skills.
The list of restricted skills is as follows: Acrobatics (Dex), Disable Device (Dex), Perception (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
...
thoughts?
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I don't see the necessity of making it this complicated. Traits can already provide extra class skills. The big issue I see with the fighter in that aspect is that they lack sufficient Skill points to make use of any extra class skills they'd get, even if they had more than the pittance they already do.
How I'd do it is simply:
At first level you gain the Additional Traits feat as a bonus feat. A fighter's Skill points gained per level is 4+Int, rather than 2+Int.
That way the fighter gets some extra skills trained, without having to sacrifice the ability to pick up a Will and/or Init boosting trait, with his standard ones.
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well, it is mechanistic thinking to presume a skill is only a worthwhile investment if you can put a rank into it every level. most skills, with a notable exception of those on my 'restricted' list above, do not have DCs that scale parabolically or even linearly. hence, a moderate investment in many skills is a viable build strategy, and within the realm of possibility to a fighter of average or better intelligence.
though your input on 'over-complicating' is valid, i wanted to avoid four things in proposing a 'modest boost':
1) granting 4 skills points ()
2) gifting the Additional Traits feat ()
3) 'over-the-top' bonuses like Trapfinding or Skill Focus ()
4) assigning pre-made 'professions' ( here)
though i might be willing to backslide on that fourth goal. hmm.
my second idea is something like:
:
A 1st level fighter may trade out armor and/or shield proficiencies for either proficiency with one exotic weapon or the promotion of any skill to a class skill, on a 1-for-1 basis. Tower shields must be traded out before regular shields, and heavier armors must be traded out before lighter armors if the fighter chooses to do so.
...
i hesitate to splice the two ideas...
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next idea:
:
A 1st level fighter may choose either his Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma to key to his Profession (soldier) skill. Additionally, he chooses a number of skills equal to this ability score bonus (if any) to tie to his Profession (soldier) skill. These skills become class skills for the fighter and whenever he puts a rank in Profession (soldier) he may also place a rank in one of these skills. These additional ranks do not count against his regular skill points per level.
better? worse?
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I just give fighters 4 skill points per level and add Adcrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive to their skill list as a base house rule.
I'd use the tactician fighter as a template for fighters with more skill ranks and an improved skill list. (or just play one and have him call himself a 'professional')
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I just give fighters 4 skill points per level and add Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive to their skill list as a base house rule.
Cavalier/Samurai gets Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive, but loses Dungeoneering, Engineering, and Survival.
anywho, considering Ascalaphus' feedback:
:
A 1st level fighter may choose 2-5 additional skills to be class skills, to represent their varied training both in and out of formal military institutions. He may choose only 2 skills if both of them are contained on the 'restricted' list below, or 3 skills if only one of them is. Otherwise, he may choose 4 skills. If he chooses only Knowledge skills, he may instead select a total of 5 skills.
The list of restricted skills is as follows: Acrobatics (Dex), Disable Device (Dex), Perception (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
...
I do not get why the list contains acrobatics and perception, those are skills that seem quite suitable to a fighter. (especially perception since even commoners get that).
I don't like to restrict fighters to military types, neither do I feel they should be more skilled than other fighters, simply give them 4 skill points and have them sort out the rest with traits.
You might like to add the option of removing heavy armor proficiency for a bonus feat from a limited (skill based) list.
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Perception is good for EVERYONE. Every adventurer wants to be good at it, but a handful of classes (rogue, ranger) are supposed to be good at it compared to regular adventurers.
Acrobatics... is a relatively good skill for fighters. Not as good as Stealth I think, but pretty close. It's application to Defensive Fighting are notable.
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Remco Sommeling,
the list essentially contains 'compound' rogue skills (skills which used to be 2-3 skills in 3ed) and magicky skills. they might be suitable for a fighter, but would require more concentrated training (in my opinion) to become really excellent at. that, and they are damn useful skills, so i command a higher 'price' for them.
also, concerning your last suggestion, check out version 2 above
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again, ducktailing on the ol' fighter debate
for better or for worse, i am married to the Fighter 'chassis' (yes - that means two friggin skill points and class skills untouched - an unpopular opinion i know!)
that said, I like the idea that the fighter ought to have more in-theme 'brain' options, to encourage investment in the mental ability scores (i am also of the opinion that Combat Expertise ought to keep the 13 INT requirement - another unpopular opinion!), and have recently had an idea that i saw somewhere (i think by Rynjin?) to propose here.
(new fighter feature):
A fighter's experience on the battlefield lends him an insight into the art and tactics of war. He may make a level check, using his fighter level plus one of his mental attributes against his foe's *SMD, to gain a psychological advantage against his enemies.
Size Up - Using his Intelligence, a fighter may substitute this roll for a single Knowledge check against a foe he is aware of, as if he possessed the appropriate knowledge skill. He may use this ability once per foe, but may retry against that foe once he attains a new fighter level. At the DM's discretion, the fighter may become privy to a secret personal weakness or hidden source of strength his enemy may possess. Sizing up a foe is a free action.
Hunch - Using his Wisdom, a fighter may glean a tactical insight against a foe with which he has entered a protracted military conflict against. This ability is functionally similar to the 'Hunch' aspect of the Sense Motive skill, usable against a foe he has personally survived an encounter with. He may use this ability once per foe, but may retry against that foe once he attains a new fighter level. At the DM's discretion, the fighter may become privy to a secret political weakness or hidden source of strength his enemy may possess. Gaining a Hunch against a foe takes an hour of study or meditation to perform.
Goad - Using his Charisma, a fighter may press his psychological advantage against his foe, temporarily aggravating rational thought by spurning hatred for himself. If he succeeds, his foe must take immediate direct action against the fighter in the following round, ignoring otherwise sound tactics in lieu of impulsive behavior. This is a mind-affecting ability. If the fighter attempts this ability more than once against the same foe before 24 hours has passed, he takes a cumulative -2 to his roll for each subsequent attempt. Goading an enemy is a swift action.
(*note: "SMD" refers to "Sense Motive Defense" and, per the Feint function of the Bluff skill, refers to the better of either 10+BAB+WIS or 10+Sense Motive bonus. I am taking this concept of 'defense' to the next level by codifying it as such. enjoy!)
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I keep the skill points at 2 starting.
Class skills are Craft, Profession, acrobatics, and Intimidate...plus any two of the fighter's choice.
At every level he gains a Bravery bonus, he gets a new skill of his choice and another skill point per level.
Eventually he gets to pick 7 of his class skills and has 7 skill points per level...adding to them as he levels and trains for what he needs, just as real people do.
And without needing to rely on raising his blasted Int score. He ends up with more points then a Ranger...and the skills HE wants.
Oh, and if he choses Skill Focus/Synergy/Training, the skills become class skills. He gets more out of feats used for skills then other classes do.
==Aelryinth
Honestly, I'd like the idea of something like:
Specialization
At 1st level, choose a skill. That skill becomes a class skill (if it was not already) and you gain 1/2 your Fighter levels as a bonus to that skill.
Simple and provides a 10 skill point boost while maintaining the fighter's versatility.
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Secret Wizard,
not a fan of over-the-top skill bonuses (you know, +1/2 level etc) - to me, that's the rogue's thing, getting a skill bonus stupid high. the design idea behind Warcraft (above) is that it gives breadth instead of depth. Size Up allows untrained Knowledge checks, Hunch is similar to Sense Motive in a way, and Goad is like an expanded Intimidate. Because they are level checks they will be difficult to pull off, but have no consequence for failure, so that's okay. The fighter can still use traits to make these class skills and get the bonuses higher (because they are skills not level checks), but he needn't invest in them to do so, and that'll free him up to spend his 2 points on other things. plus, being level checks, they reward class loyalty.
but yeah, i suppose this thread is to imagine ways to expand utility without changing the base chassis, nor composing a major rewrite. personally, i find the 'traits' solution (see upthread) to be uncreative.
You can't do a fix without a feat rewrite. You can expand this or that...expand bravery to mean extra skills and skill points, for example, is a minor thing.
BUt as long as the power of the class is in feats, and combat feats are worth half a class feature, the fighter is going to have problems, and other classes steal his thunder. It's just the way it is.
==Aelryinth
Rain, your idea is cute but it doesn't fix the big issue with fighters - not enough points. Having points all over the knowledge skills is a Ranger thing.
My idea of a big chunky boost in one skill was meant to carve a niche for the fighter, as it would allow them to specialize instead of attempting to be half rogues.
I like the Warcraft bonus, but crappy Will saves means only the wisdom one would get used.
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In the skill department, fighters just need 4 points per level, then add in heal, perception, and sense motive as class skills. Note how this gives fighters another build option: the high wisdom soldier type guy. The grizzled veteran who's seen it all, knows how to tend to common injuries, sees danger coming a mile away, and reads his enemies like open books.
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Secret Wizard,
it's not that i don't agree with the "adding a class feature to the fighter won't balance the system" analysis to some extent, i just don't think it has a better place in the homebrew forum than over in the general discussion forum - but i suppose the valid theory that "if i make a lot of noise in a lot of different places" has what amounts to annoying fallout for a poster such as myself. that said, i appreciate your positive as well as negative criticisms.
i agree with you that the fighter needs some out-of-combat specialization (or even, something to be halfway competent at in addition to making an attack roll), but where i disagree with you is how your Specialization proposal seeks to provide that. we have a different way of going about the same goal. my main negative critique of your proposal is that it doesn't seem to mechanically align with the 'theme' of the fighter, that is, gaining a +1.5 bonus per level to a skill (the upper limit of your proposal - which is what happens if he puts a rank in his Specialization skill each level) will eventually give him a very large bonus to a single skill. to me, this is how the rogue ought to specialize in a few skills, not the fighter. my philosophy is to essentially free up some design space so that he can spend his ranks on something more meaningful rather than covering 'the basics.' since my proposal covers some uses of Knowledge skills, Sense Motive and Intimidate, the fighter needn't invest precious ranks in those skills, freeing them up for other customization. looking back, a valid critique is that he might still have to spend some ranks in more 'athletic' skills (Climb, Acrobatics, Swim, Ride) because Warcraft doesn't cover those...
have you seen my other proposals upthread which i called Professional? it allows for a certain amount of skill-customization, and i would argue that it does so 'in-theme' with the fighter specifically.
also, i kind of like the subtle math of Aelryinth's proposal, 2/3/4/5/6/7 skill points per level at 2/6/10/14/18 plus awakened class skills, but again, though i appreciate the math, it seems out of 'theme' on the fighter chassis than, say, on the rogue chassis - also, it may be too flexible (if there is such a thing) - and by flexible, i kind of mean cool - and by cool, i mean steppin' on the rogue's toes (i get a little rogue defensive).
btw i hope saying 'rogue' doesn't flip a hidden switch - i do not feel like being 'schooled' on rogues in this thread. cheers!
Counterpoint: To me, the Rogue has been the one to master a LOT of skills, and be the equal of a specialist in another class.
Because that's the power of the Rogue...he's the skills guy. It's why he got the 8 points/level.
The Fighter should get extra power from skill feats, and learn extra skills as he goes...but he's never going to outshine a Rogue. He should be able to rival a ranger, however.
But again, skills need at least a partial rewrite, also, something where Ranks in a Skill mean more then a plethora of bonuses to a skill.
Ex. Crafting: Ranks in a skill determine what you can make, the final bonus determines how fast you can make it.
Ranks in climb determine what you can climb up. The bonus determines how fast you can move.
Spellcraft: The Ranks are an absolute limit/fill-in for caster level, you can't make an item with a higher CL then your ranks (which cuts down on some crafting shenanigans). The final bonus determines how many of the other penalties/difficulties you can overcome.
Etc etc.
IMO, a rogue and any other character with a skill get into an opposed contest, the rogue should always have the edge. They live or die on skills...they should have the nod.
Rogues should be able to add Skills Known with great speed, and add skill points/level with similar speed, eventually becoming the jack of all trades for skills. What casters do with spells, the rogue does just by being so Bloody Awesome.
==Aelryinth
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Aelryinth,
i am curious your opinion/comments/criticism about a rogue proposal of mine for a new 3rd-level 'ki pool' class feature i call Execution Pool (5th post here) as towards rogue being "the one to master a LOT of skills, and be the equal of a specialist in another class" concern. also, you bring up an excellent point about the fighter 'getting more' out of feats. i think this conceptually works for him - likewise i am curious your opinion about a fighter proposal of mine about modularizing his Bonus Feats class feature (here) - i think this structurally encourages the fighter to invest in a more balanced array of ability scores. any feedback greatly appreciated.
Ascalaphus,
i know that 'gamers will be gamers' but does that mean the fighter base class ought to cater to that style of play? if i had my way, only monk and rogue would get Perception and every other class would have to spend a trait.
Headfirst,
if i conducted a poll on which skills the fighter 'ought' based on posters in this thread (sample size three) i would get:
Acrobatics x2
Bluff
Diplomacy
Heal
Perception
Sense Motive x2
which begs the question what is the role of base class, archetypes, and traits, as related to the acquisition of class skills?
or how about this?:
(version 2):
At 1st level the fighter selects one of his ability scores. He may choose an additional number of skills, equal to his bonus in that ability score, to be class skills which base their skills checks upon that ability score.
eh?
Your example doesn't follow the class feature. The way I understand it, the player chooses skills only one time: at 1st level. This one could lead to some confusion. I would simplify the process, going back to something closer to version 1, such as:
Proffessional (Ex): At 1st level, the fighter choose two skills to add to his list class skills. The first can be any skill of his choice, but the second must be selected from the following list: Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Heal, Stealth, or Survival.
If you want a third skill, it could be a knowledge skill, perhaps.
Retrainable feat as a feat slot?
It's basically the equivalent of all those classes that have "Pick from X list of feats for this class. You gain that feat. At morning every day, you may swap this feat for another one from list X."
What you have noted is "Level 4: Feat Training: At level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter, you gain a feat slot that can be filled with any combat feat during your morning exercises. You must still qualify for the feat and check pre-reqs if you untrain feats that qualify you for other standing feats."
This is simple and hardly unbroken. It gives the fighter a little more flexibility, but the key here is 'which' feats the fighter can take, and really, if he has to qualify for them. Feats are basically stat reqs, and no other class that has bonus feats makes the character qualify for them. So, strictly speaking, combat feats you can't qualify for anyways because of stats may as well not exist, which limits your options.
Sure, go ahead and implement it. Being able to choose from a wide variety of half or lesser strength class features instead of picking a great class feature isn't going to hurt ANYTHING. Your only question is going to be: When can you sub it in (Hey, GM, the Brawler can do this as a SWIFT ACTION!!!!) and satisfying reqs.
===Aelryinth
Your example doesn't follow the class feature. The way I understand it, the player chooses skills only one time: at 1st level. This one could lead to some confusion. I would simplify the process, going back to something closer to version 1, such as:
Proffessional (Ex): At 1st level, the fighter choose two skills to add to his list class skills. The first can be any skill of his choice, but the second must be selected from the following list: Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Heal, Stealth, or Survival.
If you want a third skill, it could be a knowledge skill, perhaps.
I would depart from the choosing limitation entirely, "If it involves feats".
I'd modularize the Fighter's initial choices completely.
At Character level 1 only, The PC should be able to:
Pick light armor + Int or Wis bonus, 4 skill points, no shields: Medium Armor and 4 skill points, no tower shield; or Heavy armor and 2 skill points.
Pick which Good Save he wants.
I use 4 skills as 'must' for all fighters: Craft, Profession, Intimidate, and Acrobatics/athletics. Let the Fighter pick any two more.
Every time he gets a Bravery bonus, he gets to pick another class skill and gets another skill point/level. So +5 skill points/level, meaning even the heavy armor types end up with more then a Ranger.
Any time they take a feat that modifies a skill, that feat also becomes a class skill.
at higher levels, Bravery modifies all Cha and Wis skills: Expertise modifies all Int skills; Weapon Training at Str skills; Armor Training all Dex and COn skills.
I keep away from Stat bonuses. Anything that is uncapped is something that is easy to break. Technically, I don't do the Int or Wis bonus thing, because it leads either to double dipping a stat or cross-dipping for multiple stats.
Light Armor: If you give up Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, your Expertise bonus to AC applies without sacrificing +TH.
----Which provides a scaling +1 to +6 benefit. Note that I also remove pre-reqs from most feats for fighters, so it's crazy possible to have a 10 Int, 8 Wis fighter with a +4 AC bonus, just because he's that bloody good...and not forcing the character to scramble for Stat boosters to scrape up some AC. It also stops layering Int or Wis to create overblown AC's, and keeps the majority of AC right on Dex where it should be. The fighter's class AC is going to come from SKILL, not stats.
A light armor guy would additionally benefit from "Dodge: +1 Dodge bonus to AC. This bonus increases by your Armor Training benefit if the ACP of the armor you are wearing is effectively 0."
Since they wear light armor, they get use of this feat faster then heavy and medium armor wearers. And, of course, they can shoot Dex to the moon with lighter armor. And, it's effectively equal to a Rage power, imagine that!
==Aelryinth
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ok how about this:
(new fighter class feature):
A 1st level fighter gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat. When using that feat, he suffers no penalty to his attack roll when making an attack of opportunity. Finally, he may choose 3 skills which become class skills for him from the following list: Acrobatics, Appraise, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (any), Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth.
01- Bonus Feats, Expertise
02- Bonus Feat, Bravery
03- Armor Training I
04- Bonus Feat
05- Weapon Training I...
Still doesn't solve the 2 points per level issues. Aelryinth idea does some, but almost feels to complex. I would go with a simple 4+int on skills, and make bravery apply to all Will saves.
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what's cool about Aelryinth's idea is that he does it for rogues too (and faster). thus the two extraordinary classes, lacking spell progression, become the only two classes (i presume) to gain a skill progression with a mathematical structure similar to spell progression, to compensate.
sure the math is a little tricky (Q: how many skill points does a 7th level fighter have? A: 2+3+3+3+3+4+4+7xINT+7xhuman+7xFC), and there is zero precedence for such an ability in the game, but those are the only two criticisms i can think of.
Jack Rift,
what do you think of the Combat Expertise/no penalty to AoO aspect?
In my system,
a 7th level fighter would have: either 2 or 4/level from his base fighter class: +1 from human racial if appropriate; +x from his Int; and +2 from having Bravery+2, resulting in a minimum of 4 + Int + racial.
Favored class: If he takes the feat for humans, as a fighter he automatically gets 2 FC benefits, so he could get Hp+Skill pt+ Alternate 1 for every level.
He would also have 2 extra class skills he personally picked out.
i.e. I'm not sure where you're getting the 2=3=3=3 mechanic. Just give him an extra skill point per fighter level past present and future, just like Toughness. It's not 'going forwards only', as that is waaay too much bookkeeping.
==Aelryinth
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i did indeed get 2+3+3+3+3+4+4 from the presumption of 'going forwards only' - i see now that your adjustments are completely retroactive. have you considered using a 'Versatile Profession' mechanic using (Soldier) to cover for an increasing number of skill checks (at 2/6/10/14/18)? i think it would yield about the same math. just a thought...
i guess another feedback i'm seeking with regards to the Expertise proposal are input on the skills list: Acrobatics, Appraise, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (any), Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth.
does this list seem like a good list for a beginning fighter to supplement his martial training with (that isn't already on the list?) - is there anything missing or is one of them misplaced?
also, i have rec'd the 'just give out 4 skill points' from five different posters on this thread (Tholomyes, Zhayne, Remco Sommeling, Headfirst, and Jack Rift). i am aware it is a popular fix. but i'm pretty sure i'm not going to do that, at least not at this point. i will continue to consider it however.
cheers gamers.
MM. I add skills via Bravery, and any skill focus/synergy/training feats the Fighter takes. Not via Expertise. IF a Fighter takes student of Lore for +1 to all Knowledge checks, all Knowledges become class skills at the same time. It's to remain true to the theme that Fighters get more out of ALL feats then any other class.
Expertise is, to me, the 'intelligent fighter' feat, not a 'skill feat'.
I feel that, for your proposal, you're being redundant. In your design, the fighter gets Expertise, and then he gets 3 additional class skills of his choice. The list is largely irrelevant at this point, so just note he gets 3 Skills of his choice added to his Fighter list at creation, and you're good to go. I wouldn't even bother with the list...99% of choices are going to Perception, acrobatics, Sense Motive, Stealth and maybe Diplomacy, which are already on your list.
As for 2 vs 4 points...I give that as the option for the Fighter who doesn't mind not having heavy armor or tower shields. I leave it up to the player instead of just handing it out. It gives them more of the flexible fighter design which I feel is a hallmark of the class.
==Aelryinth
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Expertise
first, the military today trains soldiers in general fighting and also mines the 'talent pool' for aptitudes with other various warfare applications. my proposal tries to capture that specialized training.
second, i chose Combat Expertise for two reasons. one is that it is a 'gatekeeper feat' to many other cool feats (notably the various maneuver feats), and so i think the fighter being able to be the only low-INT character to acquire this feat is suitable. second, it is useful while fielding multiple opponents, representing formal training in doing so (compared, for example, to the Barbarian's Uncanny Dodge being a more instinctual way to field multiple opponents).
last, i think allowing the penalty to not apply to opportunity attacks will mechanically reinforce the fighter's ability to exercise limited control over the battlefield. knowing that is is deadly to 'disengage' with a fighter will hopefully deter enemies from doing so, on pain of suffering an AoO at full bonus. thus, in a sort of roundabout way, it lends the fighter a little bit of 'stickiness' as a chess piece.
Here's how I handled the base feat. Keep in mind Expertise becomes VERY powerful in my system. For instance, it adds to Improved Init, quickdraw, the saving throw boosting feats, Improved Combat Manuver, and many, many other feats that show real skill in execution.
i.e. Expertise now longer sucks, it SHINES.
Expertise (Combat)
You may take a penalty to hit to increase your AC, starting at -1/+1, and increasing all the way up to -6/+6 by +1/-1 every 4 levels (4th,8th, etc). This bonus from Expertise is a Dodge bonus.
You may not use Expertise at the same time as Power Attack or such variants (they are the same effect in different directions). Any condition that denies you use of Expertise (such as Rage) also denies you use of Expertise bonuses and synergy for other purposes.
Fighter: You may gain the AC bonus from Expertise, Complete Defense, and/or Defensive Fighting at the beginning of your turn, even if you are not engaged in combat, but you must have a weapon drawn/prepared and be able to attack.
You may choose the amount of -/+ you gain from using Expertise, from minimum to maximum, if you desire (with DM’s approval - note the reason it is fixed is to speed combat along by not having to recalculate numbers).
Your number of Skill Ranks in Acrobatics is considered to be your Fighter level for purposes of the AC benefits for Defensive Fighting and Total Defense. At 15 ranks/level, the benefits for those increase by +1 and +2 AC respectively.
You may choose to deal non-lethal damage instead of lethal damage when attacking someone without a penalty.
Expertise and its bonus modifies many other Techniques.
(Mundane) You add your Expertise bonus to your Combat Maneuvers and CMD if you are not otherwise using it defensively. This replaces the bonus from most Improved Combat Maneuver feats.
If you are wielding a Defender or Guardian Named Weapon, you may gain the AC/Save bonus swap as long as the weapon is openly unsheathed and you are ready for combat.
==Aelryinth
I just give fighters 4 skill points per level and add Adcrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive to their skill list as a base house rule.
I'd also give Perception. How many times have you seen movies/trailers/shows in which the 'designated' Fighter type suddenly stop his comrades at a certain point, say something like 'it's too quiet' (something like, if not that exactly) and suddenly the bad guys try to ambush, but the Heroes are already alert because of Designated Fighter already knew?
Because obviously every single class needs Perception on it's class skill list? ;)
Because obviously every single class needs Perception on it's class skill list? ;)
Not really, the only two types that tend to not get ambushed as much are Rogue and Fighter analogues.
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ok, another idea for Expertise.
:
A 1st level fighter, drawing upon specialized training he has received, may choose 3 skills which become class skills for him from the following list: Acrobatics, Appraise, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (any), Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth.
He also gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat. While using this feat, the fighter may apply the bonus to AC as a competence bonus to all saving throws he makes that round. This is an extraordinary ability.
That makes it similar to Rage, since Expertise only kicks in if you're in combat.
Not a bad idea to stack the two. I let him do AC or Saves, not both, but it doesn't overpower things.
You just have to make it non-dippable, now.
==Aelryinth